The Doctrine of Millennialism is destroy by Personal Symbolizing of Scripture.

[Spiritual Israelite]

I normally don't intrude into other conversations.

I'm also an anti-sameion. Which is probably worse than an anti-dentite.

And I may become an iron-clad literalist yet.

I'm no longer assuming the sword out of the Lord's mouth is just symbolic. No more than His eyes being as flames of fire.

Afterall, if the Lord can slaughter them at Armeggedon any way He desires, so long as he fulfills the Scripture and does so.

That would include a truly up-close and personal attack with a sword out of His mouth.

That would be a real nice piece of psychological warfare.

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I've often tried to picture a great Lamb standing on hind legs coming with wrath smoking out of His nostrils.

That's pretty frightneing, especially with a sword shooting out of His mouth.

I'm thinking it's probably merciful too, so as to keep the fools from rising up against Him, and staying hid among the rocks.

In any case, if you have an example of my wooden literalcy, then show it, aside from the above fun and imagination, that actually produced a teaching about the Lamb making war: no quarter for the fools, and mercy for the sensible.

If I am a wooden literalist, then that's fine with me, so long as it's the truth of Scripture.

You don't have to see the sword as being literal in order to also see the destruction as being literal. You are so childish. The sword coming out of His mouth is clearly not literal. It's ludicrous for anyone to think so. But, the destruction is real. He will destroy His enemies when He returns because other scriptures teach that as well. It just so happens that it's described in a symbolic way in Revelation 19 as opposed to a passage like 2 Peter 3:10-12. So what? Who is saying that the whole thing is symbolic, anyway? Seems like you're making a straw man argument here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 5:28 KJV
28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

You've added "singular time". King James has "the hour". These are not equivalent terms.

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I think we should first reach agreement on the wording we are talking about.

Not be ye marveling this that is coming hour in which all the ones in the vaults shall be hearing . . .

You are defining an indefinite "hour" as "a singular time". I don't see that supported in the Bible. Have you done a word study on the use of "hour" in the New Testament? I'm curious. I have, and I don't think this is correct.

Much love!

Okay, singular hour then. You tell me you've done a study on this and then don't proceed to tell me anything about what you found? Good grief. Tell me what you discovered and we can discuss it. It's clear to me that He was speaking of a coming event during which all of the dead will be resurrected.

Please explain to me how saying that a time/hour is coming when all of the dead will be raised can refer to two completely separate events during which the dead are raised. If you can't do that, then I have no reason to take you seriously on this.

Do you do this same kind of thing with Daniel 12:1-2? as well? It indicates there that the saved and lost will be resurrected "at that time".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, let's look at what Jesus said,


Matthew 24:33-37 KJV
33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Why did you only quote up to verse 37 when my point had a lot to do with what He said in verse 39? That's strange.

He said that heaven and earth shall pass away, but Jesus did not say when that would be.

Yeah, so?

And the Bible actually gives a different timeline for that to happen, at the end of the 1000 years reign following His return in power and glory.

No, it does not.

This passage does not contradict that by saying that heaven and earth will pass away when Jesus returns in power and glory. In fact, His prophecy goes on to speak of the judgment that happens when He takes His throne. Joel gives us more information on this particular judgment, identifying it's location as being on the earth, in Israel.

Jesus is affirming the veracity of His words, showing them more durable then heaven and earth itself, while not actually saying that they would pass away when He returns.

Again, we need first reach agreement on what the Bible says.

You did not address my second point regarding that passage at all. Why not? Was that on purpose? I talked about how Jesus said in Matthew 24:39 that just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.". Please address that. What do you think He was saying in that verse?

 

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Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

(. . .)

Second, Jesus plainly indicated that just as "the flood came and took them all away" in Noah's day, meaning the flood killed all unbelievers, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". So, do you believe that all unbelievers will be killed at the second coming of Christ as Jesus plainly stated would happen?

Ezekiel 39:17-20 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:21 KJV
21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Matthew 25:41 KJV
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The unbelievers will be taken away.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, singular hour then. You tell me you've done a study on this and then don't proceed to tell me anything about what you found? Good grief. Tell me what you discovered and we can discuss it. It's clear to me that He was speaking of a coming event during which all of the dead will be resurrected.

I asked if you've done the study. If you have, you've no need for me to tell you what you already know. If you haven't, I'd suggest that your own look will be worth more to you than my words which you will likely reject. So you should just see it for yourself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, singular hour then.

Why are you adding "singular"? Do that word study . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you do this same kind of thing with Daniel 12:1-2? as well? It indicates there that the saved and lost will be resurrected "at that time".

Daniel 12:1-2 KJV
1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Interestingly, Daniel wrote "many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake". What makes this interesting to me is he did not say "all".

Much love!

 

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Please explain to me how saying that a time/hour is coming when all of the dead will be raised can refer to two completely separate events during which the dead are raised. If you can't do that, then I have no reason to take you seriously on this.

We'll need to save this for a little bit, until we can first come to agree about what was written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why did you only quote up to verse 37 when my point had a lot to do with what He said in verse 39? That's strange.

It was your second point, I replied in a second post.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, so?

So don't speak when the Bible doesn't, right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, it does not.

Yes, it does in fact.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You did not address my second point regarding that passage at all. Why not? Was that on purpose? I talked about how Jesus said in Matthew 24:39 that just as the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.". Please address that. What do you think He was saying in that verse?

No one knows the day or the hour, and people tend to think it's never going to come. They will be just like in that day, eating, drinking, marrying, until the flood took them all away. They were caught by surprise.

Same thing when Jesus returns.

Did the flood kill everyone the same day? That's not the point here. And there is nothing to indicate how long it took to kill everyone in the Deluge, only, we know that the waters increased for 40 days until everything was submerged. I don't think it unreasonable to think some people headed for higher ground, and survived for a while. Until the flood fully covered the earth.

Jesus wasn't parsing out for us the timeline of people dying, He was comparing the mindset of those in that day, with these in this day. None of them expecting anything, just going on with life.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 KJV
3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ezekiel 39:17-20 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:21 KJV
21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Matthew 25:41 KJV
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The unbelievers will be taken away.

Much love!

They will be killed. Believers, on the other hand, will all be changed and will have immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54). What mortals does that leave to populate the earth for a supposed future Millennial kingdom?

 

[marks]

They will be killed. Believers, on the other hand, will all be changed and will have immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54). What mortals does that leave to populate the earth for a supposed future Millennial kingdom?

It's the sheep of the sheep and goats judgment. And Israel.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one knows the day or the hour, and people tend to think it's never going to come. They will be just like in that day, eating, drinking, marrying, until the flood took them all away. They were caught by surprise.

Same thing when Jesus returns.

Did the flood kill everyone the same day? That's not the point here. And there is nothing to indicate how long it took to kill everyone in the Deluge, only, we know that the waters increased for 40 days until everything was submerged. I don't think it unreasonable to think some people headed for higher ground, and survived for a while. Until the flood fully covered the earth.

They will be killed by fire this time (2 Peter 3:10-12), so there's no reason to think it will take very long at all.

Jesus wasn't parsing out for us the timeline of people dying, He was comparing the mindset of those in that day, with these in this day.

That is only part of what He was doing. But, in verse 39 He indicated that the flood killed all the unbelievers and the same thing will happen when He comes again. All unbelievers will be killed. You're only talking about the days leading up to the flood and the days leading up to the coming of Christ, but He made another comparison besides that regarding the day He returns.

None of them expecting anything, just going on with life.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 KJV
3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Much love!

And who will survive that? No one except for believers who are changed to be immortal.

 

[marks]

Personal symbolizing of scripture according to our own personal faith, leapfrogs any credibility of teaching the true doctrine of Christ. And that especially includes the millennial reign of Christ.

It also ruins the validity of the Bible, as being no different from any other book of men about myths, legends, parables, and anecdotal tales, such as that of Aesop.

So very true!!

So much better to simply accept what we read.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's the sheep of the sheep and goats judgment. And Israel.

Much love!

Where do you get this from? The sheep inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34,46). You believe they will inherit a temporary kingdom, not an eternal one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 12:1-2 KJV
1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Interestingly, Daniel wrote "many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake". What makes this interesting to me is he did not say "all".

Much love!

Many does not have to mean not all. Jesus said that many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Was He saying that not all are called? No. He was just indicating that the number of those who are called are "many". Another definition of the word translated as "many" is "a multitude. There is no basis for thinking that Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28-29 are speaking of different things.

 

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You believe they will inherit a temporary kingdom, not an eternal one.

No I don't and you do well to not try to put your words into my mouth.

Much love!

 

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Many does not have to mean not all.

I'm pointing out a detail in the text that you treat as though it were something different. Correct understandings will take in every single word in a fully serious manner, and will harmonize with all else in Scripture, without us needed to fudge somewhere else.

Much love!