Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

Show me where Jesus changes location in Revelation 20. The chapter starts out with Jesus at Armageddon watching Satan being bound and placed in the pit. There is no scene change from victory to victory.

Show me where John goes back and witnesses the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus immediately after Armageddon.

Where does it show Jesus on earth in Revelation 20? Hello! This is a simple question. What is He doing?

Who are the camp of the saints in Revelation 20?

 

[Timtofly]

Where does it show Jesus on earth in Revelation 20? Hello! This is a simple question. What is He doing?

Who are the camp of the saints in Revelation 20?

Well just make up your own understanding, if you don't see Jesus at Armageddon defeating Satan and his human army. Where does it show Jesus in heaven, hello? There is no scene change. That is your imagination and opinion at work.

Who are those resurrected to live in the camp of the saints? Does not a winning army set up camp after coming from heaven to defeat the earthly army? Is camp not a continuation of the army theme just come down to defeat Satan and his army? Or is the camp set up in your foisted Second Coming, that you have not shown in Revelation 20:7. Is verse 7 your Second Coming? How can you have a camp set up after the fire from heaven? Did they march against a camp that was not even set up yet? You have a twisted time table here.

 

[WPM]

Well just make up your own understanding, if you don't see Jesus at Armageddon defeating Satan and his human army. Where does it show Jesus in heaven, hello? There is no scene change. That is your imagination and opinion at work.

Who are those resurrected to live in the camp of the saints? Does not a winning army set up camp after coming from heaven to defeat the earthly army? Is camp not a continuation of the army theme just come down to defeat Satan and his army? Or is the camp set up in your foisted Second Coming, that you have not shown in Revelation 20:7. Is verse 7 your Second Coming? How can you have a camp set up after the fire from heaven? Did they march against a camp that was not even set up yet? You have a twisted time table here.

In your head: are these the glorified saints or the incorruptible saints - as you divide the redeemed into 2 camps?

 

[Timtofly]

In your head: are these the glorified saints or the incorruptible saints - as you divide the redeemed into 2 camps?

No you are dividing the redeemed into 2 camps, incorruptible and glorified. Those glorified have incorruptible bodies.

The redeemed are in two camps today. One camp is in heaven, the other on earth. Both camps are redeemed. One is in Adam's incorruptible flesh. The camp in heaven are in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No one has been glorified and put on robes of white, as John symbolizes what being glorified is.

During the Millennium, the church is in Paradise where they have been since the thief entered Paradise that day when Jesus declared it is finished, and Paradise was opened, so the thief could enter. Paradise was blocked from Adam's dead corruptible flesh the day Adam disobeyed God. Being redeemed is not just a spiritual birth. It is the heavenly city Abraham waited for until he was released from the part of sheol called Abraham's bosom. It is being restored back into permanent incorruptible physical bodies that Adam enjoyed prior to disobeying God.

That was accomplished at the Cross by the Atonement Covenant sealed up in the Lamb's book of life. The physical act was the Cross, the actual event already took place according to God's perspective before creation itself. The Lamb's book of life is unsealed as the 7 seals are being opened. The 6th Seal being the Second Coming. The Millennium Kingdom cannot start until Jesus restores this earth and removes sin and the curse and bondage of that sin on physical earth.

 

[WPM]

No you are dividing the redeemed into 2 camps, incorruptible and glorified. Those glorified have incorruptible bodies.

The redeemed are in two camps today. One camp is in heaven, the other on earth. Both camps are redeemed. One is in Adam's incorruptible flesh. The camp in heaven are in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No one has been glorified and put on robes of white, as John symbolizes what being glorified is.

During the Millennium, the church is in Paradise where they have been since the thief entered Paradise that day when Jesus declared it is finished, and Paradise was opened, so the thief could enter. Paradise was blocked from Adam's dead corruptible flesh the day Adam disobeyed God. Being redeemed is not just a spiritual birth. It is the heavenly city Abraham waited for until he was released from the part of sheol called Abraham's bosom. It is being restored back into permanent incorruptible physical bodies that Adam enjoyed prior to disobeying God.

That was accomplished at the Cross by the Atonement Covenant sealed up in the Lamb's book of life. The physical act was the Cross, the actual event already took place according to God's perspective before creation itself. The Lamb's book of life is unsealed as the 7 seals are being opened. The 6th Seal being the Second Coming. The Millennium Kingdom cannot start until Jesus restores this earth and removes sin and the curse and bondage of that sin on physical earth.

So, if the redeemed are not glorified at the moment, when are they?

 

[WPM]

No you are dividing the redeemed into 2 camps, incorruptible and glorified. Those glorified have incorruptible bodies.

The redeemed are in two camps today. One camp is in heaven, the other on earth. Both camps are redeemed. One is in Adam's incorruptible flesh. The camp in heaven are in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No one has been glorified and put on robes of white, as John symbolizes what being glorified is.

During the Millennium, the church is in Paradise where they have been since the thief entered Paradise that day when Jesus declared it is finished, and Paradise was opened, so the thief could enter. Paradise was blocked from Adam's dead corruptible flesh the day Adam disobeyed God. Being redeemed is not just a spiritual birth. It is the heavenly city Abraham waited for until he was released from the part of sheol called Abraham's bosom. It is being restored back into permanent incorruptible physical bodies that Adam enjoyed prior to disobeying God.

That was accomplished at the Cross by the Atonement Covenant sealed up in the Lamb's book of life. The physical act was the Cross, the actual event already took place according to God's perspective before creation itself. The Lamb's book of life is unsealed as the 7 seals are being opened. The 6th Seal being the Second Coming. The Millennium Kingdom cannot start until Jesus restores this earth and removes sin and the curse and bondage of that sin on physical earth.

I thought you believe in 3 camps of believers at the end of your millennium: those in heaven, those on earth in incorruptible bodies (the camp of the saints) and their mortal offspring who are deceived by Satan?

 

[Always Believing]

One of the main problems Premillennialism has is that it has a glorified Jesus bringing back all the redeemed of all the ages that have enjoyed perfect communion with Christ in His majestic heavenly presence since the time He defeated sin and death 2000 years ago, giving them new eternal incorruptible bodies at His second coming, along with the living in Christ, rewarding them with eternal bliss, and then bringing them back to a corruptible millennial earth filled with degenerates, death, decay and depravity, just like our present day. It is just another re-run of our current evil age.

Bliss is not a Bible word.

I wouldn't care where He takes us after our resurrection. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. So long as it's with Him whether in heaven or on earth. And that includes natural people on earth. I'd love them all and not be happy if having to execute a few murderers among them.

Premillennialism has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back

As I said, I wouldn't care where He takes us after our resurrection to be with Him in the air. I'm not even forced to be wherever He wants me to be and go on earth today. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay.

Not a pretty picture of Jesus' Millennium on earth. Someone has a real pessimistic view of it.

And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

I prefer the Bible version.

Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog.

Sounds good to me. The Bible doesn't say thoise saints will engage them around their camp, but that would be perfectly fine with me if I were one of them in a resurrected immortal body. Someone has a real weakling's view of being resurrected with immortal bodies, that even Cryptonite can't damage.

This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years turning in their billions at the drop of a hat from following Jesus to following Satan as the sand of the sea.

That would only be those alive and remaining at the end of a thousand years, that do join Satan from the corners of the earth. That won't include them already died during His reign. Nor does that necessarily include all them on earth, especially not the saints in their camp itself. Nothing says that camp is only of resurrected saints, or that there are any resurrected saints at all. It sounds like another test of faith for the righteous just like the children of Israel at the Red Sea, when the waves come crashing down right at the last moment upon Pharaoh and his armies chasing after.

Your pessimism makes your Bible-reading sloppy at best, and twisted at worst. My faith in the Bible makes me be correct in details and much more positive about His reign on earth.

This whole portrayal is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will never happen.

Of course it is. Your whole portrayal is based upon unbelief and pessimism. What do you expect? I'm thinking you're not a Christian I would would want to hang around with much. At least not during one of your antimillial rants.

 

[WPM]

Bliss is not a Bible word.

Did you even take the time to see what the word means? Doubtful! It means complete joy and perfect happiness. This is what Scripture attributes to the new earth, not some imaginary age in-between this age and the age to come. Seeing what Premillennialists anticipate I can see why you might take offence at that.

I wouldn't care where He takes us after our resurrection. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. So long as it's with Him whether in heaven or on earth. And that includes natural people on earth. I'd love them all and not be happy if having to execute a few murderers among them.


As I said, I wouldn't care where He takes us after our resurrection to be with Him in the air. I'm not even forced to be wherever He wants me to be and go on earth today. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

He is bringing the glorified saints back to a glorified earth, not another thousand years of the same-old same-old.

Not a pretty picture of Jesus' Millennium on earth. Someone has a real pessimistic view of it.

And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

I prefer the Bible version.

That is talking about the here-and-now. This is what Jesus brought. I do not see anywhere where it mentions a thousand years or the second coming. You force that into the text.

Sounds good to me. The Bible doesn't say thoise saints will engage them around their camp, but that would be perfectly fine with me if I were one of them in a resurrected immortal body. Someone has a real weakling's view of being resurrected with immortal bodies, that even Cryptonite can't damage.

It will never happen! It is a Premil illusion. The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

That would only be those alive and remaining at the end of a thousand years, that do join Satan from the corners of the earth. That won't include them already died during His reign. Nor does that necessarily include all them on earth, especially not the saints in their camp itself. Nothing says that camp is only of resurrected saints, or that there are any resurrected saints at all. It sounds like another test of faith for the righteous just like the children of Israel at the Red Sea, when the waves come crashing down right at the last moment upon Pharaoh and his armies chasing after.

Your pessimism makes your Bible-reading sloppy at best, and twisted at worst. My faith in the Bible makes me be correct in details and much more positive about His reign on earth.

Have you any corroboration for your beliefs re this? No. It is a wrong interpretation and an invention of a future age unknown to the OT prophets, Jesus and the NT writers.

Of course it is. Your whole portrayal is based upon unbelief and pessimism. What do you expect? I'm thinking you're not a Christian I would would want to hang around with much. At least not during one of your antimillial rants.

Quite the opposite. Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

 

[Timtofly]

So, if the redeemed are not glorified at the moment, when are they?

At the Second Coming. The opening of the 5th and 6th Seals in Revelation 6.

 

[Timtofly]

I thought you believe in 3 camps of believers at the end of your millennium: those in heaven, those on earth in incorruptible bodies (the camp of the saints) and their mortal offspring who are deceived by Satan?

At the end of the Millennium, before Satan is loosed, there is only one type of human on earth. There are not camps all over the earth. There are nations of ethnically diverse humans in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Jerusalem is the center of government with Christ as the King. That throne of David with a iron rod rule.

The term camp is symbolic.

"and the beloved city:"

If that is not Jerusalem, is there another beloved city on earth?

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another."

 

[Always Believing]

Did you even take the time to see what the word means? Doubtful! It means complete joy and perfect happiness.

Not for those of the saved nations that need to eat the healing leaves of His millennial earth nor those of His New Jerusalem on the new earth.

He is bringing the glorified saints back to a glorified earth,

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and created heavens and earth cannot be glorified.

not another thousand years of the same-old same-old.

No doubt this is why you reject His millennium, since you prophesy one of the devil instead.

That is talking about the here-and-now. This is what Jesus brought. I do not see anywhere where it mentions a thousand years or the second coming.

Seriously?

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since you don't believe the Lord is coming again to earth a second time, it's no wonder you don't wait for His coming nor His kingdom on earth. That must be why you scoff at it, and make it appear to be the kingdom of the devil on earth.

It will never happen! It is a Premil illusion.

Probably not, but it would be fine with me. I'd call it the millennial's dream fight.

The age to come has no room for "mortals"

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Your age to come has no room for the Lord, His kingdom on earth, nor the mortals He will personally shepherd and rule over. The question is why not? Why do you begrudge it? If you don't want to be there mortal nor immortal, I'm sure He can arrange your absence no problem.

No. It is a wrong interpretation and an invention of a future age unknown to the OT prophets, Jesus and the NT writers.

Sloppy with and ignorant of Scripture is no way to try and interpret prophecy of Scripture. Unless of course it's false prophecy you are looking for.

Quite the opposite. Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ.

Just as I thought. You change the millennium of Jesus Christ on earth into that of Satan, as being just more of the same.

Let's just put it this way. I don't believe in any kind of millennium on earth that you prophecy and teach.

That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high.

Jesus' power and kingship is over all the earth. He is not however yet the ruling King of all on earth.

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing.

You're the only one I see here highlighting Satan now or during Christ's millennial reign. I didn't even mention him, nor do I scoff for him against the King's inherited nations on earth.

Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god;

Your millinium does.

Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God.

Christ's Millennium does.

In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross.

You've lost control. There is definitely something off about you and your spirit here. You're hiding or holding back something about all this as though your own salvation depends on it.

As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church

Yeah. There's something more than meets the eye here. No one can be this ignorantly derisive by chance.

, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ

You've been invading nations? With the gospel? I'll tell you what. You try to invade my house with your gospel, and you get thrown out on your pretension little keister. I've met door-knocking invaders like you before and sent them packing.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Yeah, you've a got a serious spirit and attitude problem.

In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

And the nations as King when he comes again a second time to earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

At this point all I see is your spirit only getting worse and worse. I'm no longer interested in anything you have to say. Adios.

 

[jeffweeder]

Not for those of the saved nations that need to eat the healing leaves of His millennial earth nor those of His New Jerusalem on the new earth.


Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and created heavens and earth cannot be glorified.



No doubt this is why you reject His millennium, since you prophesy one of the devil instead.


Seriously?

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since you don't believe the Lord is coming again to earth a second time, it's no wonder you don't wait for His coming nor His kingdom on earth. That must be why you scoff at it, and make it appear to be the kingdom of the devil on earth.


Probably not, but it would be fine with me. I'd call it the millennial's dream fight.



Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Your age to come has no room for the Lord, His kingdom on earth, nor the mortals He will personally shepherd and rule over. The question is why not? Why do you begrudge it? If you don't want to be there mortal nor immortal, I'm sure He can arrange your absence no problem.



Sloppy with and ignorant of Scripture is no way to try and interpret prophecy of Scripture. Unless of course it's false prophecy you are looking for.


Just as I thought. You change the millennium of Jesus Christ on earth into that of Satan, as being just more of the same.

Let's just put it this way. I don't believe in any kind of millennium on earth that you prophecy and teach.


Jesus' power and kingship is over all the earth. He is not however yet the ruling King of all on earth.

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



You're the only one I see here highlighting Satan now or during Christ's millennial reign. I didn't even mention him, nor do I scoff for him against the King's inherited nations on earth.



Your millinium does.


Christ's Millennium does.


You've lost control. There is definitely something off about you and your spirit here. You're hiding or holding back something about all this as though your own salvation depends on it.



Yeah. There's something more than meets the eye here. No one can be this ignorantly derisive by chance.



You've been invading nations? With the gospel? I'll tell you what. You try to invade my house with your gospel, and you get thrown out on your pretension little keister. I've met door-knocking invaders like you before and sent them packing.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Yeah, you've a got a serious spirit and attitude problem.

And the nations as King when he comes again a second time to earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

At this point all I see is your spirit only getting worse and worse. I'm no longer interested in anything you have to say. Adios.

Adios.
If you fix thine eyes on Jesus teaching you would concur with Wpm and Paul and the rest of NT teaching regarding the Lords coming. Seriously.

 

[Always Believing]

Adios.
If you fix thine eyes on Jesus teaching you would concur with Wpm and Paul and the rest of NT teaching regarding the Lords coming. Seriously.

Paul I know. You and WPM I don't know.

Adios.

 

[WPM]

Not for those of the saved nations that need to eat the healing leaves of His millennial earth nor those of His New Jerusalem on the new earth.

You have been taught wrong. There is nothing in Rev 20 pertaining to that. You force it in there. Premils dump so much into their future millennium that is simply not there. That refers to the NHNE which comes after this current period which relates to Rev 20.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

Exactly, that is why there is no possibility for another age like our own overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions.

and created heavens and earth cannot be glorified.

Do you have Scripture teaching that the heavens and earth cannot be glorified or are you just making it up? Do you accept that the earth is going to be regenerated by fire when Jesus comes or do you think Jesus will just zap this earth? And, what happens to your millennial earth? Does it last forever?

No doubt this is why you reject His millennium, since you prophesy one of the devil instead.

Explain!

Seriously?

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since you don't believe the Lord is coming again to earth a second time, it's no wonder you don't wait for His coming nor His kingdom on earth. That must be why you scoff at it, and make it appear to be the kingdom of the devil on earth.

Jesus is coming to populate a new regenerated earth that is purged of all the bondage of corruption. Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. The enemy overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.

Probably not, but it would be fine with me. I'd call it the millennial's dream fight.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Your age to come has no room for the Lord, His kingdom on earth, nor the mortals He will personally shepherd and rule over. The question is why not? Why do you begrudge it? If you don't want to be there mortal nor immortal, I'm sure He can arrange your absence no problem.

Can you please have the courtesy to give the reference to the reader if you are calling scripture? Where does Zechariah 8:23 mention a future millennium? Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned? Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth? Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan? Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments? Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20?

Sloppy with and ignorant of Scripture is no way to try and interpret prophecy of Scripture. Unless of course it's false prophecy you are looking for.

The burden of proof is with you. Where is any mention of a future millennium in the OT? All we have is prophecies of "the last days" and "the NHNE." There is no in-between age recognized anywhere in Scripture.

Just as I thought. You change the millennium of Jesus Christ on earth into that of Satan, as being just more of the same.

Let's just put it this way. I don't believe in any kind of millennium on earth that you prophecy and teach.

I was talking about the here-and-now.

 

[WPM]

Jesus' power and kingship is over all the earth. He is not however yet the ruling King of all on earth.

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Exactly. You reinforce what i alleged. Thanks! You do teach a small impotent jesus and a BIG devil. The reality is the opposite.Hello! He is reigning now over creation and His new creation. Your fight is with Scripture.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Jesus is described in Revelation 3:7 as, “he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

 

[WPM]

And the nations as King when he comes again a second time to earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

At this point all I see is your spirit only getting worse and worse. I'm no longer interested in anything you have to say. Adios.

It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. As we have seen, that is not what Scripture depicts.

1 Timothy 6:15 declares, of this reigning King, He "is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords." This is current and ongoing. I know you do not like that.

He is reigning supreme as King of kings and Lord of lords. You deny this and therefore strip Him of His Godhood and His kingship.

 

[Always Believing]

You have been taught wrong. There is nothing in Rev 20 pertaining to that. You force it in there.

Nor for the new heaven and earth. It's in Ezekiel 47 for this earth flowing out of this Jeruslaem, and in Rev 21 for the new earth in the street of New Jerusalem.

Premils dump so much into their future millennium that is simply not there. That refers to the NHNE which comes after this current period which relates to Rev 20.

The prophecies of the Lord coming to earth the first or second time is not only in one place of the Bible. They are all come together from different places to give the full picture of prophecy. Rev 20 only adds the last pieces to the puzzle of His coming again to reign on earth. It limits it to a thousand years.

Exactly, that is why there is no possibility for another age like our own overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions.

Not with the Lord's return and His rule over all nations of the earth. Nor in the new earth.

Do you have Scripture teaching that the heavens and earth cannot be glorified or are you just making it up?

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Grass is never glorified. And no Bible says it will be.

Do you accept that the earth is going to be regenerated by fire when Jesus comes or do you think Jesus will just zap this earth?

Dissolved is not regenerated. And regeneration is only spoken of soul and spirit. God does not create any earth with spirit. Living creatures on the earth yes, but not grass and trees and waters. Do you know what pagan spiritism is and modern environmental religion?

And, what happens to your millennial earth? Does it last forever?

The millennium no. The earth yes, and it will be somewhere that God and man will not paying attention to it.

Explain!

You're the one that keeps describing any millennial rule of Jesus Christ on earth as devilish and lifting up the devil. Don't you even know that? You're the one doing it in order to try and do away with belief in it. Your vision of the Lord ruling over all nations of this earth, is of the devil to you. You do it despite the wonderful prophecies saying otherwise. I mean, some nations may be punished for not keeping His feast of tabernacles, but that does not make His rule devilish and corrupt and full of mayhem.

Your millennium is saturated with billions of phonies who reveal their hand when Satan appears. The enemy overruns your millennium with his followers - as the sand of the sea.

See what I mean?

Jesus is coming to populate a new regenerated earth that is purged of all the bondage of corruption.

Not completely, since there will be need for healing leaves for the nations. You just don't take God at His word, that's all.

Can you please have the courtesy to give the reference to the reader if you are calling scripture? Where does Zechariah 8:23 mention a future millennium?

The saved nations shall enter through the gates of New Jerusalem, not by the skirts of Jews.

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

They are mentioned in Rev 3 and 20. Do I really need to keep instructing you that the full vision of prophecy of Scripture is not in one place of the Bible alone? The prophecy of the Messiah coming as a man was not just in Isaiah 9. I'm not going to bother doing it with you anymore.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20?

Supplement, not comparison. Zech shows nations being ruled by the Lord over all the earth, and Rev 20 shows His resurrected saints reigning with Him.

The burden of proof is with you. Where is any mention of a future millennium in the OT?

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. (Psalm 82:8)

The burden of not believing plain words of the Bible is on you. Not me.

All we have is prophecies of "the last days" and "the NHNE." There is no in-between age recognized anywhere in Scripture.

The last days are now, and the new heaven and earth are after the this earth is dissolved and goes away from God's sight.

In between is the Lord coming again to this earth and ruling them of the nations that are not smitten:

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:15)

I was talking about the here-and-now.

The Millennium is defined as a thousand years. Today is the Lord's rule over His people on earth, that has been going on for a couple thousand years. And I for one am not reigning over anyone else's life with Him, except my own household and business, but certainly not over whole nations. And I wouldn't let you reign over my life here and now nor forever. I don't like your evil Millinium descriptions.

 

[Always Believing]

Exactly. You reinforce what i alleged. Thanks! You do teach a small impotent jesus and a BIG devil. The reality is the opposite.Hello! He is reigning now over creation and His new creation. Your fight is with Scripture.

Whatever.

 

[Always Believing]

It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords.

So, now your just a false accuser based upon disagreeing with your anti-millennialism.

You're no longer worth the effort.

 

[WPM]

Nor for the new heaven and earth. It's in Ezekiel 47 for this earth flowing out of this Jeruslaem, and in Rev 21 for the new earth in the street of New Jerusalem.

Where is a millennium even mentioned in Ezekiel 40-48? That is an ancient prophecy old covenant. Do you also believe in restoration of the old covenant temple, sacrifices and priesthood?

Revelation 21 is NOT the millennium. It is after the millennium. Hello!

The prophecies of the Lord coming to earth the first or second time is not only in one place of the Bible. They are all come together from different places to give the full picture of prophecy. Rev 20 only adds the last pieces to the puzzle of His coming again to reign on earth. It limits it to a thousand years.

Not true. Where is a millennium taught elsewhere in Scripture? You need to support your claims.

Not with the Lord's return and His rule over all nations of the earth. Nor in the new earth.

Oh, is that because you say so? Where is your evidence? You are forcing so much in the Revelation 20 that does not exist. That is Premillennialism in a nutshell.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Grass is never glorified. And no Bible says it will be.

Romans 5:2: “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

Romans 8:18: “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

2 Corinthians 4:17: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory”

Glorification refers to the final removal of the bondage of corruption – the result of the fall when Jesus comes. This is all the awful result of sin on the creature and creation. It describes the perfection of God’s order that arrives when He comes.

Revelation 22:3 says: “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Dissolved is not regenerated. And regeneration is only spoken of soul and spirit. God does not create any earth with spirit. Living creatures on the earth yes, but not grass and trees and waters. Do you know what pagan spiritism is and modern environmental religion?

I understand it is frustrating when you have no Scripture to support your claims, but keep the nonsense to yourself.

When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.”

This regeneration refers to the perfection of redeemed men and the created order. This is what happens when our Lord comes. I agree with Barnes in his commentary re the "regeneration," “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here. It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old, when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, "Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration-be signally honored and blessed.”

The millennium no. The earth yes, and it will be somewhere that God and man will not paying attention to it.

You're the one that keeps describing any millennial rule of Jesus Christ on earth as devilish and lifting up the devil. Don't you even know that? You're the one doing it in order to try and do away with belief in it. Your vision of the Lord ruling over all nations of this earth, is of the devil to you. You do it despite the wonderful prophecies saying otherwise. I mean, some nations may be punished for not keeping His feast of tabernacles, but that does not make His rule devilish and corrupt and full of mayhem.

I am talking about the nature of your future earth, not what Amils expect. What you propose is an unmitigated disaster. It is a mega bust. Premil wrongly portrays a millennium of unparalleled peace and submission to Jesus where the lion and the lamb finally rest together in unity and love and where the glorified saints enjoy final bliss and then bam the slaughter trucks pull up to take these same sheep to Jerusalem for slaughter. How cruel and pointless! Then after a thousand literal years of supposed perfect peace and harmony where Jesus rules with a rod of iron, the millennial inheritors turn en-masse to Satan in their billions as the sand of the sea. It is this false picture and misplacement of Revelation 20 that Premil portrays that doesn't add up.

Premils cannot accept the fact that their invented age is just a rerun of our current age. What is more, it ends in a complete debacle, it is overrun by the wicked. Talk about a mega bust! Your age to come is saturated with sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions. To you this does not represent corruption, but to the rest of us it does.

Premillennialism has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog. They will be confronted with the awful sight of Satan being released from his prison to mobilize a global assault upon Jesus and the glorified saints in earthly Jerusalem. This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years turning in their billions at the drop of a hat from following Jesus to following Satan as the sand of the sea.