Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[Gilligan]

Proof that God foreknows the choice of all men, but does not predetermine our choices:

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 18)

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 8:35)

Why would God predetermine and create some men to dishonor and death, and others to honor and life, and then hypocritically turn around and ask why some choose death?

That would be God asking himself why He makes some to choose death.

If God predetermined the will of men, without freedom to choose, then the God that is love would of course create all men to choose life.

Predeterminism is a sick pagan fatalism injected into Christian religion. Why? By their own writings, I see some Christians want to think they are predestined for glory by faith alone, so that their deeds do not matter as much as their believing it.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2)

 

[Aunty Jane]

If it's not by revelation of the Bible, then it's not from God.

Agreed.

The Bible does not teach any soul being in Christ before the foundation of the world. The first living soul to be in Christ is Adam, after his body is breathed into by the Spirit. Psalms 139 shows souls are created by Christ at the moment we are placed in our mother's womb.

I would have a different take on that.....no one can be "in Christ" until after Christ actually came and took up his ministry.....his teachings formed the basis upon which salvation rested......and they had to make the choice to become a footstep follower of his, based on what he taught..."to the Jew first, also to the Greeks". (Rom 1:16)

The first to be "in Christ" in that case, would have been the apostles, who form the very foundations of God's Kingdom. These were the first to be taken into the "new covenant".

Interesting. You're correct. I don't ready anything about choosing between heaven and hell, but rather choosing life in Christ destined for heaven, or life of the devil destined for hell.

I don't find any mention of the devil being in "hell" but I suppose that depends on which translation of the Bible you favor.
The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation is the place "reserved for the devil and his angels", but they will not go there until after God has finished with them. They will be put into an abyss where they will be unable to mislead humankind for the full thousand years of Christ's reign. (Rev 20:1-3) At the end of that time, after one final test, the devil and all who fall for his old tricks will be eliminated from existence...never to be seen again. That is what the "lake of fire" is for...its a symbolic place...what goes in there, never comes out. Even death and hades (the grave) are eliminated by being thrown into this lake. (Rev 20:13-14)

Lost me here. The Greeks philosophized about immortality of the soul, but the Bible confirms it.

I have read no scripture confirming that a spiritual entity separate from our body, dwells within us and is released at death to go somewhere else.
Immortality of the soul is not a Bible teaching, but it is found in all false religion because it perpetuates the devil's first lie...."you surely will not die"......but God told Adam that he would simply "return to the dust"...virtually going back to where he came from.

Human beings do not "have" a "soul"....all living, breathing creatures on this planet are called "souls" in the Bible. So a soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4; Eccl 3:19-20) There are no "souls" in heaven......only "spirits". Somewhere along the way Christendom confused the two terms, but they have very different meanings.

First our natural bodies are made, then we are made living souls by the Spirit of life breathed into our bodies.

Yes, but I don't believe that it is the way Christendom believes it. Each conception is not God's doing....what God gave all flesh is the ability to reproduce their "kind". To suggest that God made us all individually in the womb and gave us a soul, (as some believe) is to forget about the way some humans were conceived in violent rapes and other degraded practices...definitely not from God. Abuse of sex is a topic of much discussion in the scriptures. We are taught to respect the actions that can lead to the formation of life...it is a sacred thing to God....who invented the marriage arrangement so that children would be born into a loving and secure home, with both a mother and a father who will commit to each other, to care for them.
In today's world that is becoming rare. Broken families are producing a lot of broken people.

....The breath of life is what all living souls gasp for upon exiting the womb or egg where they were formed....it is the soul (the whole living organism) that is sustained by breathing....when breathing stops, the soul dies. Yet some souls expire before they even take that first breath...again, not God's doing.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5)

I believe that the concept of an immortal soul is grafted over verses like this. Paul was not speaking about his soul as a separate part of himself here, but about the resurrection that all Jews were taught from their scripture. Jesus clarified that belief for those who were chosen as his elect. When anointed by holy spirit, these ones were given an inordinate desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord. This anointing had to override their natural desire to remain on earth where God designed the human race to live forever.

The Jewish belief in the resurrection was a return to life, not a continuation of it......Jesus demonstrated what a resurrection was several times by awakening those who had died, and returning them to their families. No mention is made about where those souls were whilst they were dead. Jesus said his friend Lazarus was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14)

But the elect had a new hope....one not offered before Jesus came to teach them more about the Kingdom and what its purpose was.

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. (2 Peter 1)

Yes.....again the elect knew that they must leave their fleshly bodies (their tabernacle or tent) behind in order to be "born again" as spirit beings to dwell in heaven in the presence of God. They have a special assignment to be "Kings and Priests" for us here on earth. (Rev 20:6)
They will be the best rulers that we humans have ever had!

 

[Gilligan]

Hello this was a good read thank you.

The only thing to say here is that while I agree with what you are saying; I also have a view which pertains to the first bride of Christ of that century in which Jesus had foretold that would come to a close and some men would not taste death, until they seen the kingdom had come, some even seeming the Son of Man come in the clouds. Just as he had left going up into the clouds. And that those 144,000 very hold and devout people were part of the resurrection along side with those whom were in Sheol at the time in which, all were judged and everyone was sentenced. Meaning that those who held on to God and had faith went on to be with Him, and be in his kingdom, being sons or daughters of God, in faith in the Gospel of Christ. Those who were in Sheol were also given resurrection spiritual bodies and placed where they were suppose to go, and that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and Hades, death, and sin where all done away with and all things have been placed beneath the feet of Jesus today.

Now all are welcome because of Jesus and his life, death, burial, and resurrection is there for all people in life to either hear about, study, or read. And may be able to have new life through Christ by the spirit if you allow God to work in you, good fruits will come forth while sometimes God also prunes you back as he is helping you by and through the spirit and working on your mind and heart .

If you are saying all are predetermined and fated to be saved in heaven, then I disagree. Predetermined fatalism is paganism of the devil to depress men into accepting a 'predetermined fate' of destruction.

Also, though God would have all men to be saved, not all men will be saved.

 

[MatthewG]

If you are saying all are predetermined and fated to be saved in heaven, then I disagree. Predetermined fatalism is paganism of the devil to depress men into accepting a 'predetermined fate' of destruction.

Also, though God would have all men to be saved, not all men will be saved.

Totally free to believe however you see the narrative and how things seem to fit, may the spirit always guide towards truth, Gilligan.

 

[Gilligan]

Agreed.

I would have a different take on that.....no one can be "in Christ" until after Christ actually came and took up his ministry.....his teachings formed the basis upon which salvation rested......and they had to make the choice to become a footstep follower of his, based on what he taught..."to the Jew first, also to the Greeks". (Rom 1:16)

All souls are created by Christ and in His light. All have sinned, so all are not the first to be in Christ by faith.

The first to be "in Christ" in that case, would have been the apostles, who form the very foundations of God's Kingdom. These were the first to be taken into the "new covenant".

Actually, the Bible tells us that Mary Magdalene was the first saved believer to be in Christ. She's the first to see Him and believe His resurrection from the dead, and bear witness of it to the others that still did not believe.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. (1 Peter 1)

Paul the apostle certainly wasn't one of the first to be in Christ.

I don't find any mention of the devil being in "hell" but I suppose that depends on which translation of the Bible you favor.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14)

The bottomless pit is the descent into hell. All the angels that sinned are in chains of hell, but the devil was loosed to tempt the nations and souls of men.

The "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation is the place "reserved for the devil and his angels", but they will not go there until after God has finished with them.

The lake of fire is not hell. Hell is cast into the lake of fire.

They will be put into an abyss where they will be unable to mislead humankind for the full thousand years of Christ's reign. (Rev 20:1-3) At the end of that time, after one final test, the devil and all who fall for his old tricks will be eliminated from existence...never to be seen again. That is what the "lake of fire" is for...its a symbolic place...what goes in there, never comes out. Even death and hades (the grave) are eliminated by being thrown into this lake. (Rev 20:13-14)

I don't believe in extinctionist. We can speculate on the nature of torment forever, but it is torment forever, not extinction. Extinction of any hope sure, but not extinction of the angel nor soul.

I have read no scripture confirming that a spiritual entity separate from our body, dwells within us and is released at death to go somewhere else.

I gave you the verses that say so. It's not debatable to me. We either believe the words of the Bible or we don't.

Human beings do not "have" a "soul"....all living, breathing creatures on this planet are called "souls" in the Bible.

No they aren't. Only man is called a living soul. Only men have souls created in the image of God.

So a soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4; Eccl 3:19-20)

Spiritually, not physically, since a soul spiritual, and is not flesh and blood.

There are no "souls" in heaven......

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. (Rev 6)

only "spirits". Somewhere along the way Christendom confused the two terms, but they have very different meanings.

Animals only have spirits. Men have souls and spirits.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5)

Yes, but I don't believe that it is the way Christendom believes it. Each conception is not God's doing....what God gave all flesh is the ability to reproduce their "kind". To suggest that God made us all individually in the womb and gave us a soul, (as some believe)

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. (Psalms 139)

is to forget about the way some humans were conceived in violent rapes and other degraded practices...definitely not from God.

Blaming the baby is definitely not from God.

....The breath of life is what all living souls gasp for upon exiting the womb or egg where they were formed..

The air of the world is not the Spirit of God. The earth is not the goddess Gaia, and God is not the air for trees to breathe. Pagan spiritism is false.

..it is the soul (the whole living organism) that is sustained by breathing...

The natural body needs the air, and the spirit. The soul needs the Spirit of God to breathe for everlasting life, rather than everlasting shame.

.when breathing stops, the soul dies.

Already showed the Bible saying otherwise. Not debatable.

Yet some souls expire before they even take that first breath...again, not God's doing.

Still born, is the bodies not breathing the air.

I believe that the concept of an immortal soul is grafted over verses like this. Paul was not speaking about his soul as a separate part of himself here,

The soul is not part of himself, but himself. Absent from the body, we are present with the Lord. It is the body that is spoken of as part of us, not our soul. Our souls are we present with the Lord.

but about the resurrection that all Jews were taught from their scripture. Jesus clarified that belief for those who were chosen as his elect. When anointed by holy spirit, these ones were given an inordinate desire to go to heaven to be with their Lord. This anointing had to override their natural desire to remain on earth where God designed the human race to live forever.

The Jewish belief in the resurrection was a return to life, not a continuation of it...

A return of the dead body to immortality. The soul continues in or out of the body.

...Jesus demonstrated what a resurrection was several times by awakening those who had died, and returning them to their families. No mention is made about where those souls were whilst they were dead.

And the rich man in hell, with the poor Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham.

Jesus said his friend Lazarus was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14)

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

His body was dead, not his soul. The dead bodies only sleep, because there will be a resurrection of the body.

Yes.....again the elect knew that they must leave their fleshly bodies (their tabernacle or tent) behind in order to be "born again" as spirit beings to dwell in heaven in the presence of God.

Being born again is now while still in mortal flesh. Dwelling in heaven is after death of the body. No man is born again after death of the body.

They have a special assignment to be "Kings and Priests" for us here on earth. (Rev 20:6)

We are kings and priests of Christ here on earth.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1)

We will be kings and priests with immortal bodies on earth with Christ, during His millennial reign.

They will be the best rulers that we humans have ever had!

He and they will be the best rulers on earth over all the earth ever.

If we're not one of them now, then we have no hope of being one of them in the first resurrection to rule with Christ on earth.

 

[ButterflyJones]

But you don't have a response to the main one, that I have seen predeterminists use most.



And here proves predeterminism is false. All men are drawn of the Spirit to repent and believe the gospel:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. (Acts 17)

Your doctrine is false, and is an accusation against the God that is love, and first loved us all by creating us all in His image, not just some.



Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (Matthew 7)

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (Prov 1)

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jerem 29)

Predeterminism mocks them that seek the Lord, even in their blindness, because they want to find Him with a whole heart.



It's a mysterious process made of a false doctrine. Finding the Lord is nothing mysterious at all: He died for all men, draws all men, and those who seek Him with the heart shall find Him.

Simple.

It's how I found the Lord, and the same way for all who do. All are created to do so, but not all do. Calvin's predeterminism was a man's foolish effort to answer why some don't, that has no answer, because God doesn't even understand it.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 18)

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 8:35)

A prederminist makes a hypocritical fool of God, who supposedly creates some men for the good and honor and some for the evil and dishonor, and then asks Himself and others, why they do the evil.

It's just the nature of being created with free will to believe and obey God or not.

In context to God's having predestined all things according to his will and plan and recalling Acts 2 as one example, every identifier thereafter, as in "all" and "the world", with regard to his plan of salvation is relative.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@ Gilligan there is so much we will disagree on, but no point in disputing them....you have your beliefs and I have mine.

There is only one truth, and only one group of people teach it. They are united in love, all share the same truth, and are directed by Jesus in the work he assigned to all of his disciples.

We cannot be 'lone rangers' in Christ....we have to belong to a brotherhood and all must agree. (1 Cor 1:10)

I belong to a brotherhood that takes its role seriously enough to do what Jesus commanded, rather than to make excuses for why they don't. Its not just about beliefs...its also about conduct. "Doing the will of the father" means obeying the son in all things. (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@ Gilligan there is so much we will disagree on, but no point in disputing them....you have your beliefs and I have mine.

There is only one truth, and only one group of people teach it. They are united in love, all share the same truth, and are directed by Jesus in the work he assigned to all of his disciples.

We cannot be 'lone rangers' in Christ....we have to belong to a brotherhood and all must agree. (1 Cor 1:10)

I belong to a brotherhood that takes its role seriously enough to do what Jesus commanded, rather than to make excuses for why they don't. Its not just about beliefs...its also about conduct. "Doing the will of the father" means obeying the son in all things. (Matt 7:21-23)

Are you perfect? Have you achieved sinlessness?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Predestination is plain in all the texts, He chose us and ordained us. And we reap the benefits we ask and we receive.
Faith is a gift!

And here proves predeterminism is false. All men are drawn of the Spirit to repent and believe the gospel:

Why are you avoiding the word that is used, PREDESTINED. Don't substitute the word to make yoir argument. You must deny the word to do so ... and you are.
Many scriptures us that word. You are in denial, claiming those verses are false. You misinterpret them because you think this doctrine does not harmonize with other scriptures you present. It does it's just you can't get your little mind around it.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12)

Exactly, there it is again, He draws us. It is His power that enables us. But because it states all men, you can't compute that, your mental oricess hits a wall and you collapse.
Unlike what Calvin claimed, men can resist this drawing power.
The Gospel goes out to all, drawing all, to be fair but only His sheep hear and follow Him.
Only seed that is planted in feritle soil grows. Many that are drawn, like seed scatted on rocky soil or shallow soil, may be interested for a awhile, but then when troubles come, their faith fails and they fall away.
The great "falling away" is coming very soon.

Your doctrine is false

It's not my doctrine, predestintion is Biblical - but YOU reject it.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Precious words of encouragement. Yes we are responsible. But this is just matter- of - fact benefits of GRACE AND FAITH. This is God saying, "I am enabling you to do these things; go ahead and do them, they work, I have ordained them and by the way, I already know what you need and will ask for. All things work together for your good, I do all these things for you."

It's just the nature of being created with free will to believe and obey God or not.

Oh, you like the tens if millions before the Flood who just naturally and freely obeyed God? We were all like dirty rags. Left to oursleves, we would also die in the Flood. We are not made differently then them. So what were they missing? God did not choose them, they were an example for us to reflect on, the seriousness of judgment that will come again and that without God, you will die. Many will soon die in the Great Tribulation.


Let me just state up front, I AM NOT A CALVINIST - and can argue against it. Calvin created TULIP, a false premise. One would have to be omniscient to know HOW God predestines and ordains and frankly how every future event is set in place. Calvin put God in a nice little fabricated box made with simplistic gears and mechanisms, Tulip - how quaint but wrong!
Nevertheless predestination is true and part of GRACE.

 

[Gilligan]

God knows who will accept him, and thus he chooses from the eternalist point of view. Thus predestination and free will are both true.

I'm not sure what this means, but so long as God isn't deciding beforehand who the winners and losers will be, before creating them that way, then it has some merit. What's the 'eternalist point of view'? Isn't that just another way of saying omniscience?

The point of omniscience is that the Father knows all things in the beginning, because the Word has already watched all things from beginning to end. God knows because He has watched who does what, not because He has determined who does what by creating them that way.

 

[Gilligan]

No-choice-faith is as dead as having faith alone by choice.

Not sure what that means, but it doesn't sound like much of a faith to have.

 

[Gilligan]

You are not connecting the dots.

The scriptures do say:

Hebrews 13:8​

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

​

1 Corinthians 1:30​

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—​

No dots to connect. Sorry. Neither you nor me were created and in Christ before God created anything nor anyone. God's word always makes perfect sense and doesn't defy reality.

 

[Gilligan]

Totally free to believe however you see the narrative and how things seem to fit, may the spirit always guide towards truth, Gilligan.

True.

 

[Gilligan]

In context to God's having predestined all things according to his will and plan and recalling Acts 2 as one example, every identifier thereafter, as in "all" and "the world", with regard to his plan of salvation is relative.

Since you don't respond to challenges, then I'll just repeat them.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 18)

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 8:35)

God doesn't create certain people one way and certain people another, and then wonder why certain people are one way, and certain people are another. God's not an idiot. Not my God anyway.

 

[Davy]

No I won't. I've made my challenge to your predertermist reading of John 15. Since you avoid it and just repeat your own version of predeterminism, then I'm not interested.

You can't even keep the Scripture reference straight, much less what Jesus said there in John 17. So how could you ever come to understand about His chosen elect 'sent' ones that never believed on their own during this present world?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Why would God predetermine and create some men to dishonor and death, and others to honor and life, and then hypocritically turn around and ask why some choose death?

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21
The answer to that question encompasses all knowledge, and cannot be fully ascertained by humans. Predestination is beyond our menarl capacity to fully grasp. I think the Bible tries to simplify it for our purpose. It has ti do with love. We cannot fully understa d and appreciate God ( who is LOVE) until we have knowledge of both Good and Evil. He put that tree in the Garden for that purpose. They ate of it and God said, "The man has become like us, knowing good and evil..." Gen. 3:22

If God predetermined the will of men, without freedom to choose, then the God that is love would of course create all men to choose life

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
(Others translations for evil use calamities, disaster, troubles).
For man to realize and appreciate, evil was necessary, therefore death necessary. Many must die for some to be saved.


Where is the freedom? We are born with dead spirits, defective, incapable of choosing God.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14
So as a natural man, which we all were, how can we choose God unless He intervenes with His Spirit and enables us first ... and opens our eyes?
Our nature repels God/Jesus and we rebel against Him until He wears down our pride, prepares us, humbles us, enables us, guides us, influences us, persuades us and leads through life's experiences both good and evil, then lifts the veil of blindness ... THEN we miraculously become convinced ... "Yeah, I believe this gospel okay, I'm in. But you, as were all those folks before the flood, were not capable on your own to choose good. They chose evil all the time. Why didn't they choose God and what is good?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21
The answer to that question encompasses all knowledge, and cannot be fully ascertained by humans. Predestination is beyond our menarl capacity to fully grasp. I think the Bible tries to simplify it for our purpose. It has ti do with love. We cannot fully understa d and appreciate God ( who is LOVE) until we have knowledge of both Good and Evil. He put that tree in the Garden for that purpose. They ate of it and God said, "The man has become like us, knowing good and evil..." Gen. 3:22

people need to try to interpret Rom 9 correctly and in context.

Paul is referencing the OT potter and clay comments which God made.

if we read the comments, We can see what paul was saying concerning Israel (the context of romans 9)

Jer 18: The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the [a]wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was [c]marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.


5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

It is not saying God forms us however he wants and we do it blindly.. And he is not talking about induviduals or induvidual salvation

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
(Others translations for evil use calamities, disaster, troubles).
For man to realize and appreciate, evil was necessary, therefore death necessary. Many must die for some to be saved.

Just the fact God created free will, evil is created
Just the fact God did not make us robots, evil is created (he will not stop us from doing what we want)

Where is the freedom? We are born with dead spirits, defective, incapable of choosing God.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14
So as a natural man, which we all were, how can we choose God unless He intervenes with His Spirit and enables us first ... and opens our eyes?
Our nature repels God/Jesus and we rebel against Him until He wears down our pride, prepares us, humbles us, enables us, guides us, influences us, persuades us and leads through life's experiences both good and evil, then lifts the veil of blindness ... THEN we miraculously become convinced ... "Yeah, I believe this gospel okay, I'm in. But you, as were all those folks before the flood, were not capable on your own to choose good. They chose evil all the time. Why didn't they choose God and what is good?

once again, God calls us with his word. With the Holy Spirit, with other people he puts in our lives.

We must chose to say yes to Gods calling, or to reject his calling


we do not chose God. I am not sure who made up this thought, but that is not how it works. God chose to save us, and we respond to that call.. Or we reject that call.

he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Since you don't respond to challenges, then I'll just repeat them.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 18)

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 8:35)

God doesn't create certain people one way and certain people another, and then wonder why certain people are one way, and certain people are another. God's not an idiot. Not my God anyway.

I did respond to your post. Repeat yourself as often as you like.

If your point is to challenge Christians to deny God's word, understood through the exercise of proper Hermeneutics, Exegesis, and Apologetics study, I think you will find yourself to grow in frustration.

 

[Gilligan]

Predestination is plain in all the texts, He chose us and ordained us. And we reap the benefits we ask and we receive.
Faith is a gift!

True. Faith is given to all men that hear, not just those selected at creation to receive it.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4)

All that hear receive the word into their hearts. Not all choose to keep the faith of Jesus.

Why are you avoiding the word that is used, PREDESTINED. Don't substitute the word to make yoir argument. You must deny the word to do so ... and you are.

Let me clarify. There is predestination of what those that believe must do to be saved. Predeterminism of who will believe is false.

Many scriptures us that word. You are in denial, claiming those verses are false. You misinterpret them because you think this doctrine does not harmonize with other scriptures you present. It does it's just you can't get your little mind around it.

I.e. you have not response to the challenge.

Exactly, there it is again, He draws us. It is His power that enables us. But because it states all men, you can't compute that, your mental oricess hits a wall and you collapse.

This makes no sense. He draws all men proves all men are created to be drawn of God. Not all men choose to come to Him, that they might be saved. God does not create some men to resist Him. The first man Adam was not the first one preselected for rebellion. And since all men have sinned as Adam, then all men would be preselected for rebellion, and none were ever prechosen for faith.

Predestinating who will do what, teaches the devil is the creator of all men to rebel against God, since all men have done so.

The Gospel goes out to all, drawing all, to be fair but only His sheep hear and follow Him.

This is lip service rubbish. There is no fair in creating some to be sheep and some to be goats, and then God calls and draws all just show who he created to be sheep and who He created to be goats.

Only seed that is planted in feritle soil grows.

All souls of men are created by God, and come into the world lightened by Christ. All are His souls and fertile soil to please Him at creation and coming into the world. When men choose to sin against Him, the soul dies and the soil dries out.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Rev 4)

No man is created for the good pleasure of God to condemn forever. Your doctrine is a false accusation against the true God, that first loved all men by creating all men equally good in His image.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Gen 1)

God never creates any creature bad and evil. Not Lucifer, nor Adam, nor any man coming into the world.

It's not my doctrine, predestintion is Biblical - but YOU reject it.

Yes, I reject your false doctrine against God the Creator of all things good. It's time for you to say God creates some men bad and evil. Otherwise, your doctrine is only theoretical and false.

Precious words of encouragement. Yes we are responsible. But this is just matter- of - fact benefits of GRACE AND FAITH. This is God saying, "I am enabling you to do these things; go ahead and do them, they work, I have ordained them and by the way, I already know what you need and will ask for. All things work together for your good, I do all these things for you."

He already knows who. Not already determined who.

Oh, you like the tens if millions before the Flood who just naturally and freely obeyed God? We were all like dirty rags. Left to oursleves, we would also die in the Flood. We are not made differently then them. So what were they missing?

No soul is missing anything from creation and birth. The question is what did they cast away. They cast away the goodness of God's image created with, and the light of Christ lightened with.

God did not choose them,

Because they did not want to be chosen of the true God that is love, but chose to be gods themselves. The same as Adam.

Let me just state up front, I AM NOT A CALVINIST - and can argue against it. Calvin created TULIP, a false premise.

If you believe some men are predestined and created differently from other men, then one of those letters is yours.

One would have to be omniscient to know HOW God predestines and ordains and frankly how every future event is set in place.

One of those letters is yours. It's not HOW God prechooses, because he doesn't prechoose. It's only how He knows who will be chosen and who will not. The Father foreknows who will and who won't, because the Word watches to see who will and who will not. God chooses them He sees choosing to believe Him and not other gods. The choice is made at that time, not before.

 

[Gilligan]

I did respond to your post. Repeat yourself as often as you like.

If your point is to challenge Christians to deny God's word, understood through the exercise of proper Hermeneutics, Exegesis, and Apologetics study, I think you will find yourself to grow in frustration.

If you don't know how to respond to a particular challenge, but only how to continuing saying what you already believe. Then I'll not offer you any challenges, much less repeat them.