Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[ScottA]

While you may have at least a sliver of hope in confirming your new revelation by Heb 7, at least in an allegorical sense, your revelation falls apart in your use of Isaiah 28.

You have disregarded the beginning context of the verse you cite:

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

This shows your interpretation of was to them, as being to them with Christ in the beginning with God, is false. The word revealed to them is that you say was in Christ in the beginning, was only by Christ in the world after being weaned from milk: the age of knowledge, that some call accountability.

I'm sorry friend, but no man was in nor with nor beside the Word and God in the beginning. No man was created at all in the image of God, until the 6th day of creation. We are both spiritually and naturally created at the same time, spiritually in the lower parts of the earth, and naturally in the womb of our mother...

Perhaps I expected too much. I included Isaiah 28:13 for this reason:

Isa 28:13​

But the word H1697 of the LORD H3068 was unto them precept H6673 upon precept, H6673 precept H6673 upon precept; H6673 line H6957 upon line, H6957 line H6957 upon line; H6957 here a little, H2191 and there a little; H2191 that they might go, H3212 and fall H3782 backward, H268 and be broken, H7665 and snared, H3369 and taken. H3920​

• and fall H3782 = fall (27x), stumble (19x), cast down (4x), feeble (4x), overthrown (2x), ruin (2x), bereave (with H7921) (1x), decayed (1x), faileth (1x), utterly (1x), weak (1x), variant (2x).
• 
  
• backward H268 = back(s) (16x), backward (11x), behind (5x), hinder parts (3x), afterwards (1x), back parts (1x), backside (1x), hereafter (1x), time to come (1x), without (1x).
• 
  
• and be broken, H7665 = break (115x), destroy (9x), break in pieces (8x), break down (4x), hurt (3x), torn (2x), give birth (1x), crush (1x), quench (1x), miscellaneous (6x).
• 
  
• and snared, H3369 = snare (5x), lay a snare (1x), laid (1x), fowlers (1x).
• 
  
• and taken. H3920 = take (112x), catch (5x), at all (1x), frozen (1x), holden (1x), stick together (1x).

Meaning: cast down in ruin/death, hereafter, give birth, as caught like fish, and caught up together.​

But I digress, for I knew this first by the Spirit and only now have clarified it by the scriptures.

As for the context and what you consider an error by the timing...there is no timing, except in the revelation of it. The context then, is either "before the foundation of the world", or during the revelation of it in times. I have told you the truth as "before", meaning in the context of God, while you seem to want to correct me according to "times" and the context of this world.

Such is not knowledge increased, but restrained. Even so, He who restrains, is also He who is taken out of the way and He who reveals.

 

[Davy]

Yes.


There is support for this, but only in allegory.

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

As I may so say is metaphor. Paul is say so to speak in allegory, not declaration of physical fact. And so, in a similar allegorical sense we may also so say we were in Christ in the beginning, but not in spiritual fact. If that were true, we can declare we are with Christ on the new earth, after the end of this world. We may so say we are, but not in physical nor spiritual fact.

We can say so metaphorically as we look for the city of God and a new heaven and earth, and have all our hope in it coming to pass, and even better live like it, but you are speaking of it as a fact. You must say so, since you are speaking of having been with God and the Word before creation as a fact.

The real problem of believing and saying, We were there in the beginning with the Word and with God, is the same as saying, We are there on the new hearth with God and the Lamb.

Nah... Paul in Hebrews 7 WAS NOT GIVING AN ALLEGORY.

Paul was giving FACTS about Jesus AS... the Melchizedek of the Old Testament that met Abraham and offered Abraham "bread and wine". Hebrews 7 points out the Deity of Melchizedek, without mother, without father, having neither begininng or end of days, etc. That can ONLY apply to GOD, and Jesus Christ IS GOD THE SON.

So those who point to what Paul taught in Hebrews 7 about Christ, saying it's just some allegory and that's all, hint that they DENY THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST JESUS AS GOD.

So don't listen to these ratchet jaws that try to tuck Christ's Divinity away under a rug just like many of today's CORRUPT New Testament versions try to do.

 

[robert derrick]

You misunderstand.

To the contrary, if we are at all a servant of God, it is not we who speak or write at all. But rather, we are "silent in church" and "it is the Holy Spirit who speaks." It is only then that a person's name is associated with what is true from God, and not before.

True, but even the Holy Spirit can talk plainly. He proves it in all of Scripture. It's one thing to speak a mystery in plain language, and another to speak mysteriously.

 

[robert derrick]

We need only be born and live--this is our witness and our confession, whether wheat or tare.

I agree. True godly living is the difference between professing only and being true.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

As for the scriptures, they are like the Sabbath: Man is not for the scriptures,

Sorry, but this is a seriously flawed analogy. The Sabbath is made by the Scriptures. The Scriptures are not the Sabbath.

The Scriptures are every word in writing proceeding from the mouth of God, by which we live and have life in Christ.

Without the Scriptures, man is nothing and lost to everlasting darkness, because it is by the plainness of Scriptures and the foolishness of preaching them, that God has chosen to save man from sin and darkness.

I am not only for the Scriptures, but I eat them up for my very soul's sake. Minus to ink and paper, of course.

nor are they the test of God, for even they are confused by God;

Oh, we separate big time here. You contradict Scripture itself to say this:

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Scriptures are the test of all doctrine, prophecy, and revelation, whether they be of God and Christ, or not. And no Scripture is confusion written by God. And the Scriptures are not confusing at all, when not misread, falsely understood, or purposely twisted:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Paul relied solely upon the Scriptures written before him, and by him, and by the other apostles, as did Peter:

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

'Hard to be understood', does not mean they are confusing, but only that we must continue in the Scriptures with faith, to be shown all their understanding by the Spirit of truth, Who inspired and wrote them on paper, as well as in our hearts. You are showing a lack of faith in the Scriptures, or at least in your being able to perfectly understand all Scripture as written by God.

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

But at the very least, your statement show that your faith in God and His word, does not rely solely upon Scripture for all the truth of God. That is the same as Catholics with their own 'sacred' traditions, that reject sola scriptura as well. You are apparently doing so for the sake of your own sacred revelations.

God's Scriptures are written for sure learning, peace, and comfort of the believers, that believe them exactly as written, which includes The Revelation of Jesus Christ. His Revelation is the last revelation for man, that reveals the truth of all prophecy of Scripture, rather than make them confusing, or more mysterious.

Jesus Himself conforms to Scripture, so that He reveals Himself as the true Christ by His Scriptures

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

To say that the Scriptures already written for us, are not the 'test of God', or even the only test of God, is to say there is other revelation concerning Christ that is not found in Scripture. That is the perfect recipe for revealing false christs.

Jesus conforms to all prophecy of Scripture, and only prophecy of Scripture already written, when coming in the flesh, coming again to earth, reigning on earth, and dwelling with man in New Jerusalem on the new earth. There is no other prophecy nor revelation that has anything to do with Jesus being the true Christ, and the Lamb being the temple and light in New Jerusalem.

 

[robert derrick]

As for the scriptures, they are like the Sabbath: Man is not for the scriptures, nor are they the test of God, for even they are confused by God;

The only reason you say this, brother Scott, is because you claim to have been given a new revelation of God in the 3rd heaven, that is not confirmed by Scripture, and I have shown is contradicted by certain Scripture.

Your own efforts to try and uphold your new revelation as true from the Scriptures, contradicts your own statement that they are not necessary to test true revelation of God. If I believed like you, I would just state my new revelation, and not bother with other Scriptures at all to justify it. And I would reveal my new mystery in plain english, not mysteriously in my own way.

Hey, the only sharp disagreement we have had in the past, was my suspicion you were a hypocrite in living ungodly, and using your revelations to justify it. But now I am seeing that is not the case, when you do speak of godly living as proof of our faith in Christ.

So, I do love you brother, and even enjoy sparring with you about revelations, but I must warn you to repent of thinking you have revelation and mystery from God and the Word, apart from the Scripture of truth. You can continue to believe your own revelations, but just don't let them go to your head so much, that you willingly jump from the pinnacle of Christ, and fall flat on the earth, as Simon did in 'The Silver Chalice'.
As bugs bunny would say, The earth, she be real hard. And not just an image.

but the scriptures are for man that he might not be without what he otherwise does not possess.

The Scripture are for man that we might be with all the truth of God and Christ, that He wants us to possess in this life.

It's neither wise nor lawful to utter other things as true things of God, that are not written and confrmed in Scripture.

We can speculate with private interpretations, so long as no Scripture contradicts them, but we must not ever teach, preach, prophecy, nor reveal them as sure and certain truth of God, without Scripture first proving they are so.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

That is the source of divisions in the churches of God and body of Christ, because believers either teach what they know is not written, as though it were, or they are not disciplined in teaching only what is written, by rightly dividing the word of truth found in Scriture.

The fact that we must learn to rightly divide the word of truth, proves that the only word of truth is in Scripture, because only what we see written, can be read and rightly divided.

You see how I keep getting new revelations all the time? It's just that all my revelations are of what Scripture is saying, not what I want them to see, nor what I see written in the clouds, heavens, or stars.

And if I am ever caught up there as you were, then I trust I will still confirm by Scripture any new revelations coming down, which will simple make them more new revelations of Scripture, that I am already finding here on the solid ground of earth. Those rocks are not image of rocks, but they be real hard rocks. That's why they call it the Hard Rock Cafe. Just funning with you buddy.

 

[ScottA]

True, but even the Holy Spirit can talk plainly. He proves it in all of Scripture. It's one thing to speak a mystery in plain language, and another to speak mysteriously.

Surely you think too highly of me--for plain speech and mystery are God's doing--not mine. In any case, I am not speaking mystery, but speaking plainly to explain the mysteries of God. But because all truth has been a mystery for so long, it appears strange and foreign and mysterious.

Example: If I said "The Jordan of scripture is a river in your mind and in your heart, that chasm between this world and God." If you then read of it again with that in mind, there is a chance you might see that it was never just a geographical place where God did a miracle. But if you reject it and say it's just a river and a miracle from God in history and in the world-- I have spoken plainly, but not in the way you are accustom to.

Thus, just as the prophets of old and the word of God even in historical events spoke many parables, I speak many explanations as foreign to foreigners. Thus, the need for the renewing of the mind.

 

[ScottA]

The only reason you say this, brother Scott, is because you claim to have been given a new revelation of God in the 3rd heaven, that is not confirmed by Scripture, and I have shown is contradicted by certain Scripture.

Your own efforts to try and uphold your new revelation as true from the Scriptures, contradicts your own statement that they are not necessary to test true revelation of God. If I believed like you, I would just state my new revelation, and not bother with other Scriptures at all to justify it. And I would reveal my new mystery in plain english, not mysteriously in my own way.

Hey, the only sharp disagreement we have had in the past, was my suspicion you were a hypocrite in living ungodly, and using your revelations to justify it. But now I am seeing that is not the case, when you do speak of godly living as proof of our faith in Christ.

So, I do love you brother, and even enjoy sparring with you about revelations, but I must warn you to repent of thinking you have revelation and mystery from God and the Word, apart from the Scripture of truth. You can continue to believe your own revelations, but just don't let them go to your head so much, that you willingly jump from the pinnacle of Christ, and fall flat on the earth, as Simon did in 'The Silver Chalice'.
As bugs bunny would say, The earth, she be real hard. And not just an image.

I have no "revelation and mystery from God and the Word, apart from the Scripture of truth."

What I have rather, is an open door and open book unto all truth--which is indeed according to God and the Word.

 

[ScottA]

The Scripture are for man that we might be with all the truth of God and Christ, that He wants us to possess in this life.

I might have quoted your whole comment, but this one first statement is not biblical.

It is written and Jesus has sent the Holy Spirit to lead us unto all truth--not after death, but during these times to "we who are alive and remain"--and not from the scriptures alone, but by the spirit of God, just as Peter came to know Jesus was the Christ. Which is no departure from the scriptures, but their fulfillment. Just as Jesus did not come to take away the law, but to fulfill it, so too the Holy Spirit comes to fulfill, writing in hearts rather than on parchment. The words that were before written on parchment but not fully understood, are now fully revealed by the Spirit, by God to whom He wills, according to His purpose.

 

[ScottA]

It's neither wise nor lawful to utter other things as true things of God, that are not written and confrmed in Scripture.

Each of these statements are like poison arrows.

Talk about not being wise, you speak as one appointed to maintain the law of God--yet I have not done what you seem to accuse me of. I have not uttered "other things as true things of God, that are not written and confirmed in Scripture", but have confirmed and explained what is indeed written.

If I have said anything that you do not understand as confirmed, name it and I will confirm it.

But don't expect the same to be revealed to you as it has been and is revealed to me. Is such an expectation even biblical? No--but just the opposite, such expectation is spoken against, as envy and jealousy. Nonetheless, the unfolding of every mystery and revelation, is according to God, by His terms, not man's. I could even do as Paul did to defend his calling, for I am not without the ability to verify--nor could you even know it as verified unless it were given to you to know--but I will not verify unless called to do so.

 

[robert derrick]

I have no "revelation and mystery from God and the Word, apart from the Scripture of truth."

Yes. You do. The word revealed to them, is them already in this world, and weaned from their mother's milk. Not before the world began with the Word and with God.

(Isaiah 11)
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

You left out the first verse and context of the Scriptures you teach your revelation from, because it shows your revelation is false. No man was created with God and the Word in the beginning before the world began, and given the word of the Lord.

Do you not believe I can read for myself the words of Scripture that you quote to confirm the truth of your revelation, and see something so simple?

 

[robert derrick]

Not sure what that means, but it doesn't sound like much of a faith to have.

People choose to have faith alone, and it's all they have: their own dead faith alone. And then they preach it as gospel and salvation for themselves

 

[ScottA]

Yes. You do. The word revealed to them, is them already in this world, and weaned from their mother's milk. Not before the world began with the Word and with God.

(Isaiah 11)
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

You left out the first verse and context of the Scriptures you teach your revelation from, because it shows your revelation is false. No man was created with God and the Word in the beginning before the world began, and given the word of the Lord.

Do you not believe I can read for myself the words of Scripture that you quote to confirm the truth of your revelation, and see something so simple?

I am not sure just what you are referring to, having made no clear and simple point. But what is "refreshing" if it is not first made fresh beforehand?

Such is the word to Benjamin, saying, “Blow the ram’s horn in Gibeah, The trumpet in Ramah! Cry aloud at Beth Aven, ‘Look behind you, O Benjamin!'" Benjamin, meaning "son of the right hand." That is, son of Christ, who being of Him, was in Him before, in Him who was before the foundation of the world.

But perhaps you could clarify your point.

 

[The Learner]

start at

• #181

 

[robert derrick]

But perhaps you could clarify your point.

You quoted Isaiah 28:13: But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

You did so as a proof text that there were 'them', and yourself with them, with the Lord before the world, and the word of the Lord was revealed unto 'them', and you, then.

But, you skipped verse 9, that says when He revealed His word, in order to change it to another place and time:

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You say He revealed it unto 'them' before the world, and the Lord says He revealed it to them in this world at the age of knowledge, which is when weaned from the mother's milk.

 

[ScottA]

You quoted Isaiah 28:13: But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

You did so as a proof text that there were 'them', and yourself with them, with the Lord before the world, and the word of the Lord was revealed unto 'them', and you, then.

But, you skipped verse 9, that says when He revealed His word, in order to change it to another place and time:

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You say He revealed it unto 'them' before the world, and the Lord says He revealed it to them in this world at the age of knowledge, which is when weaned from the mother's milk.

I see. But no, that is not what I was saying.

I did not say that anything was revealed before the foundation of the world--it was not, but only in the fulness of time. What I was saying (quoting other scriptures also) was that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever", thus, those "in Him" were [actually] in Him "before the foundation of the world", and yet only revealed during the times of this world, as Paul said, "but each one in his own order."

I had added the Isaiah 28:13 quote as confirmation that these things were known and written well before much of what has come to be since Isaiah, but also that the language indicates the prophecy to be true from the beginning, even announcing the plan of God that had begun before the foundation of the world. But that involves a complete word search (which I provided), and is otherwise not likely to be understood. (See post #181)

 

[robert derrick]

I am not sure just what you are referring to, having made no clear and simple point. But what is "refreshing" if it is not first made fresh beforehand?

If you mean times of refreshing from the Lord, then you are correct, when we first new His freshness in this life. Whether as a babe or as a born again babe in Christ.

Such is the word to Benjamin, saying, “Blow the ram’s horn in Gibeah, The trumpet in Ramah! Cry aloud at Beth Aven, ‘Look behind you, O Benjamin!'" Benjamin, meaning "son of the right hand." That is, son of Christ, who being of Him, was in Him before, in Him who was before the foundation of the world.

Benjamin was not in Christ, nor was Christ in him, nor was any other son of Jacob, nor Isaac, nor Abraham. The promised seed was in their loins, and His faith was in their hearts.

And you've taken the Scripture out of context:

They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a month devour them with their portions. Blow ye the cornet in Gibeah, and the trumpet in Ramah: cry aloud at Bethaven, after thee, O Benjamin.

Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be. The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.

This has nothing to do with a revelation of a blessed past in Christ before the world began. It is a rebuke and prophecy of desolation and wrath for the errant children of Israel. God is telling the people Benjamin, that they can blow all the trumpets in any famous place they want, and it will do them no good, so long as they continue in unrighteousness.

I did not say that anything was revealed before the foundation of the world--it was not, but only in the fulness of time. What I was saying (quoting other scriptures also) was that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever", thus, those "in Him" were [actually] in Him "before the foundation of the world", and yet only revealed during the times of this world, as Paul said, "but each one in his own order."

Ok, I took the your meaning to far. Although, I don't see how souls of men could be in Christ before the world, and not know anything. What's the point of being in Christ at any time, if we don't know Him, nor the truth, nor have any understanding of anything.

What's the point? The practical effect is the same as being created when coming into the world.

I had added the Isaiah 28:13 quote as confirmation that these things were known and written well before much of what has come to be since Isaiah,

Yes, much Scripture was written, and fulfillment of prophecy had already come to pass by the time of Isaiah.

but also that the language indicates the prophecy to be true from the beginning, even announcing the plan of God that had begun before the foundation of the world. But that involves a complete word search (which I provided), and is otherwise not likely to be understood. (See post #181)

Yes, had all Scripture prepared and ready before the world began, because the Word has seen all things come to pass, and the foreknowledge of the Father could write it down in the beginning for revelation to man. He gave it out some here, some there, precept upon precept to His prophets and apostles, until the last word of Scripture and prophecy given to John.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

And so, we just disagree with any soul of man being in Christ before the foundation of the world.

We are created in the image of God and born in the flesh at the same time, even as Adam was. We are not like Jesus Christ being before the foundation of the world, and coming down from heaven to be made flesh.

A proof text of not being in Christ before the world, is that we are only lightened with the light of Christ when coming into the world:

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

That's the present tense, not past: we have no light of Christ before coming into the world, and so what's the point of being in Christ beforehand, without light, knowledge, nor revealed and understood truth?

 

[ScottA]

Benjamin was not in Christ, nor was Christ in him, nor was any other son of Jacob, nor Isaac, nor Abraham. The promised seed was in their loins, and His faith was in their hearts.

And you've taken the Scripture out of context:

They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. They have dealt treacherously against the LORD: for they have begotten strange children: now shall a month devour them with their portions. Blow ye the cornet in Gibeah, and the trumpet in Ramah: cry aloud at Bethaven, after thee, O Benjamin.

Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be. The princes of Judah were like them that remove the bound: therefore I will pour out my wrath upon them like water.

This has nothing to do with a revelation of a blessed past in Christ before the world began. It is a rebuke and prophecy of desolation and wrath for the errant children of Israel. God is telling the people Benjamin, that they can blow all the trumpets in any famous place they want, and it will do them no good, so long as they continue in unrighteousness.

It's not out of context, but is a foreshadowing of--as it says, "that which shall surely be." But you are looking at the shadow, and I am looking at "that which shall surely be."

In the proper context then (of that which shall surely be), I have spoken correctly. You even quoted it yourself, referring to the fact that those who come forth were first "in their loins." The context then even goes back to Christ and all who were in Him before the foundation of the world...after which, the world is the revelation of who? "The revelation of Jesus Christ."

See the Forest for the trees, rather than the trees for the Forest: It is the trees that make up the Forest.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, I took the your meaning to far. Although, I don't see how souls of men could be in Christ before the world, and not know anything. What's the point of being in Christ at any time, if we don't know Him, nor the truth, nor have any understanding of anything.

What's the point? The practical effect is the same as being created when coming into the world.

The point is like that of being in the womb. And what does one in the womb know but his mother's touch and voice? That is all that intended, even in the world, and the point the point is not being born into the world, but out of the world.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, much Scripture was written, and fulfillment of prophecy had already come to pass by the time of Isaiah.

That is not what I meant, but rather that it is a small example pointing to the greater reality of what Christ also referred to, saying "before Abraham was I am." Both Isaiah's words and Christ's were, as it is written, "here a little, there a little", but I have put them together.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, had all Scripture prepared and ready before the world began, because the Word has seen all things come to pass, and the foreknowledge of the Father could write it down in the beginning for revelation to man. He gave it out some here, some there, precept upon precept to His prophets and apostles, until the last word of Scripture and prophecy given to John.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

And so, we just disagree with any soul of man being in Christ before the foundation of the world.

We are created in the image of God and born in the flesh at the same time, even as Adam was. We are not like Jesus Christ being before the foundation of the world, and coming down from heaven to be made flesh.

A proof text of not being in Christ before the world, is that we are only lightened with the light of Christ when coming into the world:

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

That's the present tense, not past: we have no light of Christ before coming into the world, and so what's the point of being in Christ beforehand, without light, knowledge, nor revealed and understood truth?

You are not getting or not ready to comprehend the timelessness of God (before time was created). Therefore, you keep using time as the measure of all things. But all things are not according to the creation, but to the Creator. As long as you look at things as being of the world, you are of the world. But I have been speaking not of the world, but of God.

As it is, learning what you have learned and living by it, was only to be for a time. But time is passing away, and therefore it was always intended that we learn also the [actual] ways of God, not in the breakdown of times ticking by, but as having passed away. This understanding and knowledge, is the key to "all truth" which was to come...as being "lead." Such leading was not intended to be comfortable or to be challenged as competitive with the way things have been, but rather a stretch up to the next level, that level being God. This is the lifeboat that so many have prayed for. On the contrary, none of it was meant for you and I for debate, but rather the renewing of the mind.

There are just two options for those who believe, 1) that your faith grows and advances from the elementary principles that have been before, decreasing in the ways of this world, and increasing in the ways of God, or 2) holding to the way things were fighting against what was also to come, only to die and awaken to it. In which case, one either learns how one is [actually] not of the world while remaining in the world, and helping others in the process; or being too stubborn to hear and just foolish enough to think that things are meant to stay the same as the world would prefer, and thereby miss out on this reign with Christ.