It will remain open if It stays on course and the subject is discussed rather than insults aimed at members in responses to what they have said.
What does it mean to be born again?
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Thanks for your response. But, the bible says, "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." And God chastises who He loves as sons. Believers are loved as sons, unbelievers are not. There is partiality, but it is not on the same level as humans being respecters of persons....God's ways are higher than ours. For believers the Lord dealing with our flesh works for our good, for unbelievers (those who are foreknown by God to never be saved) it is working for sheer punishment and wrath. God willing to make His wrath known on the vessels fitted for destruction.
Really?? People's theology cause them to act out on what they think/believe. I have met so many people who reject Christ because of the "Christians" (who are acting out on their theology) they have encountered. I believe flawed theology has a HUGE part in keeping people out of the Kingdom of God, therefore rejecting Christ.
Secular Jews have no interest in or much knowledge of the Torah or Talmud. To win Jewish souls doesn't necessarily require arguing the fine points of theology with them. It's not by the power of logic....but by my spirit says the Lord.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
ahhhhh, honest objectivity and accountability! Could it be that our Laodicean dispositions are the result of the lack of?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 12:6 - For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. 7 You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline? 8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]. (AMPC)
You misunderstood....Epi said Jews were refusing Christ back in the time of the Reformation because of Luther's flawed theology. I'm talking about the flawed theology of someone witnessing to Jews by debating theology with them.
But yes of course I agree it matters very much what we believe in terms of theological matters. And yes, how bad theology affects believers and churches certainly can affect behaviour and attitudes and be a bad witness which hinders non-believers from being open to the gospel in a general sense.
But I'm afraid what Episkopos is calling bad theology on this thread is nothing less than the power of God unto salvation!
Johann
Well-Known Member
RIGHTEOUSNESS
"Righteousness" is such a crucial topic that a Bible student must make a personal extensive study of the concept.
In the OT God's character is described as "just" or "righteous" (verb, BDB 842, KB 1003; masculine noun, BDB 841, KB 1004; feminine noun, BDB 842, KB 1006). The Mesopotamian term itself comes from a "river reed" which was used as a construction tool to judge the horizontal straightness of walls and fences. God chose the term to be used metaphorically of His own nature. He is the straight edge (ruler) by which all things are evaluated. This concept asserts God's righteousness as well as His right to judge.
Man was created in the image of God (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1,3; 9:6). Mankind was created for fellowship with God (i.e., Gen. 3:8). All of creation is a stage or backdrop for God and mankind's interaction. God wanted His highest creation, mankind, to know Him, love Him, serve Him, and be like Him! Mankind's loyalty was tested (cf. Genesis 3) and the original couple failed the test. This resulted in a disruption of the relationship between God and humanity (cf. Rom. 5:12-21).
God promised to repair and restore the fellowship (cf. Gen. 3:15
He does this through His own will and His own Son. Humans were incapable of restoring the breach (cf. Rom. 1:18-3:20; Revelation 5).After the Fall, God's first step toward restoration was the concept of covenant based on His invitation and mankind's repentant, faithful, obedient response (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-38). Because of the Fall, humans were incapable of appropriate action (cf. Rom. 3:21-31; Galatians 3). God Himself had to take the initiative to restore covenant-breaking humans. He did this by
1. declaring mankind righteous through the work of Christ (i.e., forensic righteousness)
2. freely giving mankind righteousness through the work of Christ (i.e., imputed righteousness)
3. providing the indwelling Spirit who produces righteousness (i.e., Christlikeness, the restoration of the image of God) in mankind
4. restoring the fellowship of the Garden of Eden (compare Genesis 1-2 with Revelation 21-22)
However, God requires a covenantal response. God decrees (i.e., freely gives, i.e., Romans 5:8; 6:23) and provides, but humans must respond and continue to respond in
1. repentance
2. faith
3. lifestyle obedience
4. perseverance
Righteousness, therefore, is a covenantal, reciprocal action between God and His highest creation, based on the character of God, the work of Christ, and the enabling of the Spirit, to which each individual must personally and continually respond appropriately. The concept is called "justification by grace through faith" (i.e., Eph. 2:8-9). The concept is revealed in the Gospels, but not in these terms. It is primarily defined by Paul, who uses the Greek term "righteousness" in its various forms over 100 times.
Paul, being a trained rabbi, uses the term dikaiosunē in its Hebrew sense of the term tsaddiq used in the Septuagint, not from Greek literature. In Greek writings the term is connected to someone who conformed to the expectations of Deity and society (i.e., Noah, Job). In the Hebrew sense it is always structured in covenantal terms . YHWH is a just, ethical, moral God. He wants His people to reflect His character. Redeemed mankind becomes a new creature (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). This newness results in a new lifestyle of godliness (cf. Matthew 5-7; Gal. 5:22-24; James; 1 John). Since Israel was a theocracy there was no clear delineation between the secular (society's norms) and the sacred (God's will). This distinction is expressed in the Hebrew and Greek terms being translated into English as "justice" (relating to society) and "righteousness" (relating to religion).
The gospel (good news) of Jesus is that fallen mankind has been restored to fellowship with God. This has been accomplished through the Father's love, mercy, and grace; the Son's life, death, and resurrection; and the Spirit and drawing to the gospel.
Justification is a free act of God, but it must issue in godliness (Augustine's position, which reflects both the Reformation emphasis on the freeness of the gospel and Roman Catholic emphasis on a changed life of love and faithfulness).
For Reformers the term "the righteousness of God" is an objective genitive (i.e., the act of making sinful mankind acceptable to God [positional sanctification], while for the Catholics it is a subjective genitive, which is the process of becoming more like God [experiential progressive sanctification]. In reality it is surely both!!)
In my view all of the Bible from Genesis 4 – Revelation 20 is a record of God's restoring the fellowship of Eden. The Bible starts with God and mankind in fellowship in an earthly setting (cf. Genesis 1-2) and the Bible ends with the same setting (cf. Revelation 21-22). God's image and purpose will be restored!
To document the above discussions note the following selected NT passages illustrating the Greek word group.
1. God is righteous (often connected to God as Judge)
a. Romans 3:26
b. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-6
c. 2 Timothy 4:8
d. Revelation 16:5
2. Jesus is righteous
a. Acts 3:14; 7:52; 22:14 (title of Messiah)
b. Matthew 27:19
c. 1 John 2:1,29; 3:7
3. God's will for His creation is righteousness
a. Leviticus 19:2
b. Matthew 5:48 (cf. 5:17-20)
4. God's means of providing and producing righteousness
a. Romans 3:21-31
b. Romans 4
c. Romans 5:6-11
d. Galatians 3:6-14
5. Given by God
a. Romans 3:24; 6:23
b. 1 Corinthians 1:30
c. Ephesians 2:8-9
6. Received by faith
a. Romans 1:17; 3:22,26; 4:3,5,13; 9:30; 10:4,6,10
b. 2 Corinthians 5:7,21
7. Through acts of the Son
a. Romans 5:21
b. 2 Corinthians 5:21
c. Philippians 2:6-11
8. God's will is that His followers be righteous
a. Matthew 5:3-48; 7:24-27
b. Romans 2:13; 5:1-5; 6:1-23
c. Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
d. 1 Timothy 6:11
e. 2 Timothy 2:22; 3:16
f. 1 John 3:7
g. 1 Peter 2:24
9. God will judge the world by righteousness
a. Acts 17:31
b. 2 Timothy 4:8
Righteousness is a characteristic of God, freely given to sinful mankind through Christ. It is
1. a decree of God
2. a gift of God
3. an act of Christ
4. a life to be lived
But it is also a process of becoming righteous that must be vigorously and steadfastly pursued, which will one day be consummated at the Second Coming. Fellowship with God is restored at salvation but progresses throughout life to become a face-to-face encounter with Him (cf. 1 John 3:2) at death or the Parousia!
Here is a good quote to conclude this discussion. It is taken from Dictionary of Paul and His Letters from IVP
"Calvin, more so than Luther, emphasizes the relational aspect of the righteousness of God. Luther's view of the righteousness of God seems to contain the aspect of acquittal. Calvin emphasizes the marvelous nature of the communication or imparting of God's righteousness to us" (p. 834).
For me the believer's relationship to God has three aspects.
1. the gospel is a person (emphasis of the Eastern Church and Calvin)
2. the gospel is truth (emphasis of Augustine and Luther)
3. the gospel is a changed life (Catholic emphasis)
They are all true and must be held together for a healthy, sound, biblical Christianity. If any one is over emphasized or depreciated, problems occur.
We must welcome Jesus!
We must believe the gospel!
We must pursue Christlikeness!
Well said, Utley.
And yet Jesus said whosoever believes in Him will never die....? Hmm....Yes, excellent. Thank you.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
Ah! The doctrine of election--vehemently opposed by Armenians yet scripturally sound and biblical, feisty sister, feisty.[in a dunamis sense]
Ok, I didn't explain myself well.....when I said "flesh is flesh in believer and non-believer" what I needed to add was if a believer leads/responds with his/her flesh (as does a non-believer) it will be seen and identified as flesh....and what is a "believer" doing when leading with the flesh?!? .....acting as a non-believer!?!? That's how I understood it. (Sorry, I'm new here and I need to learn better how to express myself in writing.)
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
If Pharaoh wasn't obeyed it was death, that's how it worked for the Hebrews for hundreds of years, they were well programmed. Now that the Hebrews were free on the other side of the Red Sea what restraint did they have? Every man became his own law and at Mt Sinai they went Awol so to speak......in short time they knocked up a golden calf.
Mose saw God as an uber Pharaoh and many the laws reflected this; fall in line or you die. Just look at the blessings and curses laid out in Leviticus 26.
Jesus was/ is the great light. He came to 'unravel' the distortions the Israelites had of God but they preferred their distortions. The story of the tenanted vineyard illustrates this.....and I dare say that within Christianity many distortions are also preferred and results in the same behaviour.....killing the Son and throwing him out of the vineyard.
God is the life giver yet Satan tars him with his own attributes, the destroyer.....and the bait is taken easily.
Johann would disagree. He's very impressed by the human intellect, trying to impress people with his own copy-paste abilities...you see. He's very impressed with rabbis in particular.
The truth is embedded in their own scriptures. It takes someone to point them out. God backs up the truth.
But one must understand where they are to find them. I mean that more from a spiritual perspective, of course.
They see the NT as we see the book of Mormon....
So you are left with knowledge of AND understanding of...the scriptures.
Are you saying..flesh is flesh no matter who happens to be sporting it?
How many believers go to God to have the flesh dealt with? VERY FEW...the Great Delusion is that you can grow into Christ-likeness with the flesh intact. And there are doctrines to cover up the truth in that regard. They call it "Reform Theology." Devised by a very clever monk named Luther. (not to be mixed up with Lex Luthor....that other villain in the Superman series)
Many will be cast alive into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You just can’t hear me. Your indoctrination of leaven prevents it. There would be no point in explaining it to you again right now. You absolutely cannot hear and will just keep on insisting that something not being said IS being said.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with you expressing yourself in writing....what sayeth the scriptures?
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
See that? They that are Christ's have crucified the sarx/flesh--believers IN Christ don't go about having a style of life IN the flesh, like that of unbelievers.
The genuine believer IN Christ exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.
Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Eph_5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
It is impossible for a believer to live in a STATE of habitual sins, like that of unbelievers, who can do nothing BUT sin--that would be a contradiction.
Shalom
J.
You are so certain He is a respecter of your person!
You are also certain that whoever is given more, less will be expected of them.
Religious dogma is not the power of God unto salvation...but the power of men unto delusion. And you haven't understand what I'm saying (a lot of that lately).
Jews don't take Christians seriously so often because they are not seen as taking the words of God seriously. Instead Gentiles seem to prefer nice sounding verses that are taken out of context. So there's nothing to convict the Jews that they may have got it wrong.
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