The gods of amil.

[WPM]

Aah you are so full of attacks and accusations because you cannot accept you may not have all the answers the way I admit I do, and because you cannot answer this:

The biblical concept of eternal life is inextricably intertwined with being alive in a body. The Greek word for being alive in the body is záō. The Greek nouns for the resurrection from physical death (bodily resurrection from death) are anástasis and égersis; and the verbs associated with resurrection from physical death are egeírō and anístēmi.

All human beings since the time of the fall of Adam are born spiritually dead, but no one except Adam died spiritually.

The New Testament does not consider any son or daughter of Adam who is born into this world as being spiritually dead because they had "died" spiritually and need to be spiritually "resurrected" from spiritual death. Rather, all who were born after Adam's spiritual death are born spiritually dead because we were born without spiritual life, and unless life is given to us through the quickening of the Spirit, we would all have remained spiritually dead:

"That which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

"Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;" (John 3:3).

In the New Testament, and without exception, the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, which occurs through and with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening of Christ by the same Spirit, leads to the bodily resurrection (anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō) which again occurs with (synegeiro) Christ's bodily resurrection.

In the New Testament, wherever the word záō (alive, living) is found, the word refers to the living (záō) God or to humans being alive (záō) in their own human bodies.

I gave all the verses, so that whoever wants to can read them and check the context of each verse for themselves.

I'd love to know how you - and only you - managed to die spiritually after Adam died spiritually, and how only you got spiritually "resurrected" from your "spiritual grave" before you were even born spiritually when the rest of us who were born after Adam are born into this world without any spiritual life to die from in the first place and can only be born spiritually, never spiritually "resurrected". You must consider yourself really special.

You made the accusation and hung on your own gallows. That wasn't a very smart move for you. Your arguments and wording were largely a cut-and-paste exercise. Your accusations just went up in a puff of smoke.

Now, are you going to address the rebuttals or are you going to continue to avoid the biblical evidence?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, are you a bot "who copies and posts from his treasured store house of stored posts as fast as any bot can"? LOL. You should think before hurling charges. I think your mask has fell!!!

Undecided in eschatology

My questions to AMILLENNIALISTS are: 1. How do you reconcile satan being bound from deceiving the nations with him PRESENTLY deceiving the nations in Rev 12:9 and other verses where the WHOLE EARTH is said to be under the power of the evil one (1 john 5:19)? Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And...

www.christianforums.com

LOL. Is it somehow okay when he does it, but not when you do it?

 

[WPM]

LOL. Is it somehow okay when he does it, but not when you do it?

Exactly! He got caught on doing what he accused others of. That is duplicity. In reality, I have no difficulty with him cutting and pasting anything if it is relevant to the conversation and he is willing to develop it and discuss the inaccuracies in his position. But, alas, no.

 

[Gilligan]

We spiritually have part in HIS resurrection when we are spiritually saved and that is what having part in the first resurrection is about.

The proof of Scripture has been shown, that there is no part in any resurrection, that is not bodily.

Your spirit-only part is false.

I didn't say I was resurrected. I am saying that I have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection which is what passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and Romans 6 talk about.

The illusion of spirit-only part in the resurrection, is proven by saying you have no resurrection.

I never claimed that I rule over angels in heaven.

Which also shows your spirit-only rule in heaven is also illusional.

The rule is imaginary, because there's nothing being ruled over.

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

If you had any part in Hius resurrection, then you would have part in judging the angles and having them subject to you.

You say you don't, because you don';t. because your spirit-only part in His resurrection is fairy-sprite fantasy of your own mind.

Something is very wrong with you.

I'm not the one thinking I have some spiritual resurrection with Christ, and reigning in heaven with Him, and yet deny having anything to rule over, that He does.

Are you thinking that the word "figurative" is a synonym with the word "fictional"? It seems that way.

It's fictional, when the figurative is imagination only. Not Scripture.

Please tell me you are smarter than that. We reign in a spiritual sense with Christ as passages like the following talk about:

Your spirit-only reigning with Christ over angels in heaven, is fictional imagination.

Now, if you want to say Christ does not rule over angels in heaven, then say so. Otherwise, you're not ruling with Him in any way, shape, or form.

Your doctrine-only reign, is imagined by your own faith alone.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Being kings and priests to God by Jesus Christ on earth today, is not being resurrected with Him, nor reigning in heaven with Him.

Nor over any nation on earth.

This speaks of the current reality of believers being "a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". We are in Jesus Christ's spiritual kingdom that does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

True. The kingdom of God is within us, by Him supping with us in the heavenly places of our hearts on earth.

You're not resurrected with Him and reigning anywhere in heaven nor over the earth.

Unless of course over your own life, which is till subject to the law and rule of man.

How exactly do you know what the souls of the dead in Christ are doing in heaven?

Since I read the Bible of God, I know what He says.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Since you only read your own bible of symbols, you don't have a clue.

I haven't said that even once. You must have a really bad reading comprehension problem.

So, you have no part in His bodily resurrection. You're not resurrected with Him.

What scripture says that no angel or man can reign with God in heaven?

Because God's Bible has no angel nor man reigning with God in heaven, except the man Christ Jesus.

That includes your illusion of reigning.

I don't add to God's word.

I have never said that. Yet another lie from you. Is lying not a sin in your mind?

So, you are not reigning in heaven with Him.

My teaching is not figurative only or spirit only. You are wasting time arguing with your imaginary straw man.

Not so long as you are not saying you have part in His resurrection, nor are reigning in heaven with Him.

I say that we spiritually have part in His resurrection in the same sense that passages like the following talk about, but I do not say that I have been resurrected.

You're spirit-only resurrection is a fiction of your own bible. There is not spirit-only resurrection in Scripture of God.

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

The heavenly places that men sit in on earth, are the hearts of men wherein the kingdom of God abides.

No man on earth, is sitting anywhere in heaven above.

This is speaking of the current reality of us spiritually being saved and reigning with Christ in a spiritual sense "in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus", but not literally in heaven.

Spiritually but not literally, is spirit-only unreality.

I have never said this. I don't even know what this means. What is this supposed to mean?

If you are sinning in an unrighteous work of the flesh, are you saved and uncondemned by God?

I don't claim this.

If you are spiritually reigning with Christ now, does that mean you will always be reigning with Christ?

I believe that He will return bodily in the future, so it seems to me that if you're arguing against any doctrine in particular, it would be full preterism rather than amillennialism. But, you seem to be too ignorant to even know the difference.

I know the difference between amillennialism, pseudo spirit-only millennialism. and the Millennium of the Lord and His saints.

Your's is the pseudo one.

 

[WPM]

The proof of Scripture has been shown, that there is no part in any resurrection, that is not bodily.

Your spirit-only part is false.



The illusion of spirit-only part in the resurrection, is proven by saying you have no resurrection.

Which also shows your spirit-only rule in heaven is also illusional.

The rule is imaginary, because there's nothing being ruled over.

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

If you had any part in Hius resurrection, then you would have part in judging the angles and having them subject to you.

You say you don't, because you don';t. because your spirit-only part in His resurrection is fairy-sprite fantasy of your own mind.



I'm not the one thinking I have some spiritual resurrection with Christ, and reigning in heaven with Him, and yet deny having anything to rule over, that He does.


It's fictional, when the figurative is imagination only. Not Scripture.


Your spirit-only reigning with Christ over angels in heaven, is fictional imagination.

Now, if you want to say Christ does not rule over angels in heaven, then say so. Otherwise, you're not ruling with Him in any way, shape, or form.

Your doctrine-only reign, is imagined by your own faith alone.


Being kings and priests to God by Jesus Christ on earth today, is not being resurrected with Him, nor reigning in heaven with Him.

Nor over any nation on earth.


True. The kingdom of God is within us, by Him supping with us in the heavenly places of our hearts on earth.

You're not resurrected with Him and reigning anywhere in heaven nor over the earth.

Unless of course over your own life, which is till subject to the law and rule of man.


Since I read the Bible of God, I know what He says.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Since you only read your own bible of symbols, you don't have a clue.



So, you have no part in His bodily resurrection. You're not resurrected with Him.

Because God's Bible has no angel nor man reigning with God in heaven, except the man Christ Jesus.

That includes your illusion of reigning.

I don't add to God's word.


So, you are not reigning in heaven with Him.



Not so long as you are not saying you have part in His resurrection, nor are reigning in heaven with Him.

You're spirit-only resurrection is a fiction of your own bible. There is not spirit-only resurrection in Scripture of God.



The heavenly places that men sit in on earth, are the hearts of men wherein the kingdom of God abides.

No man on earth, is sitting anywhere in heaven above.

Spiritually but not literally, is spirit-only unreality.

If you are sinning in an unrighteous work of the flesh, are you saved and uncondemned by God?


If you are spiritually reigning with Christ now, does that mean you will always be reigning with Christ?

I know the difference between amillennialism, pseudo spirit-only millennialism. and the Millennium of the Lord and His saints.

Your's is the pseudo one.

Do you never get bored of giving the same old spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only nonsense? You are like a broken record. You have obviously nothing of biblical worth to bring to the table.

 

[Gilligan]

Do you never get bored of giving the same old spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only spirit-only nonsense? You are like a broken record. You have obviously nothing of biblical worth to bring to the table.

I know. Those who refuse correction get very annoyed by them that keep correcting.

However, when you stop trying to teach to me personally, then of course I'll stop personally rejecting it as vain imagination only.

I know I can't stop you from still imagining it, which you love to do, but I have no interest in trying to do so.

I don't care what you think in private. Only what you try to push off on me.

 

[WPM]

I know. Those who refuse correction get very annoyed by them that keep correcting.

However, when you stop trying to teach to me personally, then of course I'll stop personally rejecting it as vain imagination only.

I know I can't stop you from still imagining it, which you love to do, but I have no interest in trying to do so.

I don't care what you think in private. Only what you try to push off on me.

Believe me, i am not trying to change you. You will act and believe as you do. Your MO is avoidance and ad hominem. You cannot address simple arguments and basic Scripture. That is because, the error you promote does not abide biblical scrutiny.

 

[Gilligan]

I do not call being born again a resurrection.

Then your 'part' in the Lord's resurrection, is as worthless are you 'part' in reigning with Him.

The silliness of it, is that you claim a part in a resurrection, where you also say you have no resurrection at all.

it's all just doctrinal imagination of words without any substance to it.

The first bodily resurrection was Christ's resurrection itself (1 Cor 15:20-23, Acts 26:23), so the mass bodily resurrection that will occur at His second coming is NOT the first bodily resurrection.

True.

We spiritually have part in HIS resurrection when we are spiritually saved and that is what having part in the first resurrection is about.

You have no part in a resurrection, that is no resurrection for you. You claim a part in a resurrection, that you say you don't yet have.

All you're really teaching is another kind of OSAS unconditional eternal security, through having a resurrection 'in part'.

You teach for yourself a part in Christ's resurrection, as a doctrinal guarantee of being in the bodily resurrection.

You think you are already spiritually there in heaven, from which you cannot fall.

I didn't say I was resurrected.

I know. Only 'in part'. It's a 'partial' resurrection. You're head is in heaven, while your body is still on earth. And that makes perfect sense, since only the beheaded have part in the first resurrection of the blessed.

It's sheer doctrinal gobbledygook trying to claim part in a resurrection, that you deny having bodily. You're head's been resurrected only, just waiting for the body to join you in heaven. Which of course, is a form of OSAS soul separation doctrine, where the souls in heaven, are no longer responsible for the deeds of their bodies still back on earth.

The only time the saints will have part in Jesus' resurrection, is when they also are raised bodily in the likeness of His resurrection.

Your 'sort of' like His resurrection is spirit-only doctrinal playtime.

I never claimed that I rule over angels in heaven.

That's because you also have no part in reigning with Him in heaven, where He does rule over angels.

You likewise will have no rule with Him over the nations of earth, because you also refuse to have part with His rod of iron to destroy the wicked.

As I said, it's just doctrinalized spirit-only resurrection and reigning, in order to support doctrinalized OSAS unconditional security by faith alone.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is because, the error you promote does not abide biblical scrutiny.

I would say the same about those pushing reformed preterist eschatology

You have claimed the (Day Of The Lord) in Zechariah 14:1 has no relationship to the (Day Of The Lord) in 2 Peter 3:10

You believe and teach Preterist 70AD fulfillment in Jerusalems destruction by Roman armies

You deny a future human man as being (The Man Of Sin/The Beast)

You deny future literal prophets returned as being the (Two Witnesses)

Correct me if I'm wrong?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Then your 'part' in the Lord's resurrection, is as worthless are you 'part' in reigning with Him.

The silliness of it, is that you claim a part in a resurrection, where you also say you have no resurrection at all.

it's all just doctrinal imagination of words without any substance to it.



True.


You have no part in a resurrection, that is no resurrection for you. You claim a part in a resurrection, that you say you don't yet have.

All you're really teaching is another kind of OSAS unconditional eternal security, through having a resurrection 'in part'.

You teach for yourself a part in Christ's resurrection, as a doctrinal guarantee of being in the bodily resurrection.

You think you are already spiritually there in heaven, from which you cannot fall.


I know. Only 'in part'. It's a 'partial' resurrection. You're head is in heaven, while your body is still on earth. And that makes perfect sense, since only the beheaded have part in the first resurrection of the blessed.

It's sheer doctrinal gobbledygook trying to claim part in a resurrection, that you deny having bodily. You're head's been resurrected only, just waiting for the body to join you in heaven. Which of course, is a form of OSAS soul separation doctrine, where the souls in heaven, are no longer responsible for the deeds of their bodies still back on earth.

The only time the saints will have part in Jesus' resurrection, is when they also are raised bodily in the likeness of His resurrection.

Your 'sort of' like His resurrection is spirit-only doctrinal playtime.


That's because you also have no part in reigning with Him in heaven, where He does rule over angels.

You likewise will have no rule with Him over the nations of earth, because you also refuse to have part with His rod of iron to destroy the wicked.

As I said, it's just doctrinalized spirit-only resurrection and reigning, in order to support doctrinalized OSAS unconditional security by faith alone.

The whole intent of reformed preterist eschatology claims on taking part in the Lord's (First Resurrection) in 33AD is to make way for a false interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6 (First Resurrection)

This eschatology falsely claims this pertains to taking part in Jesus resurrection in 33AD through salvation "Wrong"

In reality it pertains to the "Future" resurrection that takes place at the second coming on the last day, (The Dead In Christ Will Rise "First")

The major concern with reformed preterist eschatology's false teachings is, they wave a magic wand in symbolic allegory to remove literal events that will take place in the future

 

[Timtofly]

It seems like some Premils have been trying to explain away spiritual resurrection upon salvation for the sole purpose that it exposes their interpretation, location and timing of Revelation 20. This has been easily, ably and repeatedly refuted by Amils on this board. The fact is: multiple NT passages (Luke 2:34, John 8:12, Romans 4:17, Romans 6:3-6, 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, Ephesians 2:1-6, Ephesians 5:14, Colossians 2:10-14, Colossians 3:1-4, I John 3:14) teach that we have experienced spiritual resurrection from spiritual death through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Premils also do the same with the spiritual quickening (described throughout the NT) that happens to the sinner upon salvation.

Sadly, many Premils do not seem to have any grasp of what it means to be spiritually quickened and resurrected from spiritual death. It is either this, or their faulty theology forces them into defending the indefensible. It would therefore be beneficial to let Scripture speak for itself.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 explains:

“The first man Adam was made a living soul.”

“the last Adam was made a quickening [Gr. zōopoieō] spirit."

And continues, “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.”

This text teaches us that our “natural” ‘soulish’ man came first; the “spiritual … heavenly” came second. This is talking about our old man and our new man. The old man is dead unto God and controlled by natural understanding and natural feelings. Our new man is our spiritual man who has been raised from spiritual death. He is God-conscience, and alive unto God. These two natures are in conflict with each other.

The Greek word interpreted "quickening" is zōopoieō meaning to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, give life. Metaphorically, it describes seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing.

We are talking about regeneration here! We are looking at the translation of a man from death to life. This is indeed supernatural, and is instigated by the Lord. The phrase "a quickening spirit" is talking about the initiator of life Jesus Christ; a quickened spirit is the recipient of that life.

You mean we don't bow down to your hyper spiritual opinionated interpretation of Scripture?

You have to be born into God's spiritual family, not resurrected into it. Jesus said, "Ye must be born again." Jesus did not say, "Ye must be resurrected spiritually out of death."

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

You are not "separated from" something you never had. Not even dead to. You have to have a birth before you can experience life. You have to be born spiritually to experience spiritual life.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

No mention of a resurrection at all in John 3.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Born of water is the physical birth. Born of the Holy Spirit is the spiritual birth.

Made alive happens at birth. Given life happens at birth. Having life is not just a phenomenon associated with a resurrection. It is associated with birth as well.

Jesus was never spiritually dead. It is sad that Amil imply such a travesty.

Those verses are indicative of 2 things. Adam introduced sin and death into the world. Jesus introduced the spiritual birth into the world, to restore what Adam lost.

We are talking about a birth here. Adam is not resurrected. Jesus is the new birth. Adam is the epitome of death. Two totally incompatible natures. Adam's nature is not resurrected, it will forever be dead. That is why they are still called the dead standing at the GWT in Revelation 20. They are not given life. Not a birth nor a resurrection. They are cast into the LOF.

Of course pre-mill grasp that we are both physically and spiritually dead. We would not be born again, redeemed, if we did not understand that. Should I complain you are implying pre-mill are not even Christians?

 

[Timtofly]

John said he saw the souls of those who were dead. He didn't say he saw souls (in the sense that humans can be called souls). He said he saw the souls of those who were physically dead. And he said he saw them living and reigning with Christ. He didn't say that he saw their bodies.

That is not what John saw nor wrote.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

John does not have to mention bodies at all. Remember Revelation is highly symbolic and we can imply Scripture gives us guidance.

He did not see headless bodies standing in judgment. Why even mention it? The thrones were set up to judge these souls. The souls were not sitting on thrones doing the judging. Do you think those sitting on physical thrones had physical bodies? What else would these thrones and judges be if not physical? Don't say spiritual, because physical bodies can be spiritual. They are not at odds with each other. Adam was a soul body and spirit. Both physical and spiritual at the same time, and did not become physical and stopped being spiritual.

If those souls were judged and given life, are you saying nothing changed? They are still "just alive" souls now? Before they were "just dead" souls? At what point are they spiritually birthed? Then what happened to them is called the first resurrection. So you seem to say they left Adam's flesh by chopping their head off, but later on, they stood before thrones and are now spiritually ressurected in Christ, but still no body, just a soul floating for all eternity?

Why is this not considered nonsense that souls cannot have a physical body? Is a physical permanent and incorruptible body that abhorrent of an idea to you? Do you not agree with Paul:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Does Paul have to use the word body for this to make sense? Does John have to use the word body for Revelation 20:4-6 to make sense? You seem to think they have bodies at the GWT, no? Where does John mention bodies at all in Revelation 20?

Does any one in Revelation 20 have a body, even though John does not specify to that end? Christ? Satan? An angel? The saints? Those deceived by Satan? At what point does common sense and other verses from the Bible help one's interpretation? Why would those beheaded be the sole people mentioned, who cannot have a physical body?

Grant it, that the OT only had souls in Abraham's bosom along with the dead in sheol who exist as souls. At least as far as we know they did not have a physical body, as that only made it about 6 feet down. Now the earth opened up and swallowed many alive in the presence of Moses in the wilderness. The Flood probably sent many physical bodies into the depths of the earth, but I digress. The point is that John pointed out that these beheaded were killed over a 42 month period of time. They waited without a body until after Satan was bound in the pit. Then they were judged and given life, the first resurrection. A physical body, because it is just not logical nor common sense to think otherwise. That is why he only saw souls. They were waiting to stand in judgment before their physical resurrection. After their first resurrection, they ruled on earth with Jesus for a thousand years, ie the camp of the saints. No where does it claim they even entered heaven, were glorified, became as the angels. All we are told is they died because their head was separated from their body. They did not live a thousand years without a new permanent incorruptible physical body.

Should we consider this:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Are these the same souls who were beheaded? They did get victory by chopping their head off. Where is this sea of glass? After the Second Coming, we see a LOF and this sea of glass mingled with fire.

Is this "heaven" next to the LOF but separate from Paradise? You have to remember that the firmament (heaven) no longer exists at the 6th Seal. What exists after the thief in the night moment other than a sea of glass and the LOF, two opposing phenomenon? The sheep wait on the sea of glass. The goats tossed into the LOF. The wheat wait on the sea of glass, the tares cast into the LOF. The last to arrive on the sea of glass are the beheaded, but they did not stand stand before Jesus on the throne like the sheep and wheat. Satan was on the throne during those 42 months. Why would Satan even want them to leave and arrive at the sea of glass, knowing that they would be given life after he was dethroned and placed in the pit? Do you think Satan has read the Bible? He knows at one point his time was short. Does he know that because that is what John wrote, or he won't know that until the last minute?

Amil brush all these facts and points to the side because Revelation is too symbolic and obviously these facts get in the way of their eschatology.

 

[Timtofly]

How is a spiritually dead person raised from their spiritual grave and brought unto spiritual life?

How is symbolism ever considered literal? That is why we have the words symbolic and literal. One is symbolic not literal. The other is literal and not symbolic.

Paul used the symbolism of being in a spiritual grave. When were you literally in a spiritual grave?

Your soul has only been in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, literal. Your soul is in the family of God after a birth, literal, and a spiritual resurrection symbolic.

Are you not literally born into God's family? Are you literally a born human? Are you literal, or just an avatar in a software program in some computer, a symbol?

One is not wrong in pointing out Paul's symbolism. It is when they turn that symbolism into a literal phenomenon, that makes no sense. Jesus in John 3 already explained to Nicodemus the literal facts, while Paul was still being educated as a Pharisee.

You are literally birthed into God's spiritual family. Being born again is not symbolic. The Holy Spirit is a literal and viable person of the Trinity. The Trinity is literal, not symbolic.

In case you are not aware: the dead cannot hear. They cannot see. They cannot understand. They cannot move. They cannot respond. Would you agree? You can stick a pin into a dead man and he will not react. You can scream into a dead man’s ears and he will not respond. That is because he is dead. This applies both to the natural and the spiritual.

So you were spiritually born thousands of years ago, and then died spiritually at some point? Now you just recently came out of this grave?

Hello!

Birth comes before death!

You are claiming resurrection comes first, when that is not even possible. Does your dead physical body start out with a resurrection, and then eventually is born?

Only Adam and Eve suffered spiritual death. They stopped being alive sons of God, but dead, in need of a resurrection.

You symbolically need Adam's spiritual resurrection. Not literally. You need the birth first. You are not even there but by the proxy of the Holy Spirit. Your soul is not seated in heaven with Jesus. Your spirit is, because you have the Holy Spirit on loan from God so you can even have a spiritual connection with God. The church is physically there serving God day and night in His Temple.

 

[Timtofly]

Are we spiritually dead or alive before salvation?

Neither. You soul has only experienced a physical birth, and it has a body.

In Adam all flesh is dead.

You as an individual needed a spiritual birth. Adam does not decide what you become, neither does God. That birth is you submitting to the Holy Spirit. Not by your power nor will, but by giving up your will, in submission to God. It is not like you are literally gestational in God's womb. It is the spiritual calling by the working of the Holy Spirit. Jesus literally called it the second birth. Jesus was not being symbolic. Jesus compared the literal physical birth to a literal spiritual birth.

The first birth placed you in Adam's family. The second birth placed you in God's family literally.

 

[Timtofly]

Not true. It is the Scriptures that I posted in that post that exposes and demolishes your whole thesis not my words. You know it! That is why you carefully duck around every single verse in that post that forbids your claims. You have to!

Your post was your own personal thesis:

The answer of course is “dead.” We are all “dead in sin” before conversion as a result of the Fall. Therefore, we all automatically inherit that fallen nature through our federal head Adam by our first birth. In order to shift from this awful state of death to life we must first hear the quickening or life-giving voice of the Lord and then experience the joy of spiritual resurrection. By being raised from the grave of sin and debauchery we experience newness of life (or are born from above). It is the resurrection of the spirit into a state of communion with God that causes the new birth. When resurrected our spirits are brought from death to life, this causes a new birth in our being. A human being consists of body, soul and spirit. It is the spirit that is dead unto God before salvation that is (1) quickened (2) resurrected from its death that (3) begets life and therefore a new nature or the spiritual man.

For someone to move from death unto life requires resurrection (whether natural or spiritual). The human being’s spirit is dead toward the things of God. before conversion. Man from the Fall has been imprisoned in darkness and the grave. He needs God’s help to release him. That part of him that fell in the Fall and which was in perfect communion with God was turned around in the opposite direction to be at total enmity with Him. Without a resurrection the spiritual man within us remains at total variance to God. That spirit needs quickened and brought back into union and communion with God. This only occurs through spiritual resurrection.

Whilst the ungodly have a spirit, prior to salvation, it is separated from God and dead toward the things of God. The new birth is essentially the result of the restoring of the relationship between our spirits and God’s through God’s quickening and resurrection power. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us upon salvation and enables us to enter into fellowship with God, which was broken through the Fall. When Scripture says we were “dead in sin” it means we were spiritually dead or dead in a spiritual sense. No one would surely argue that the concepts of being born and of being resurrected whilst being different spiritual metaphors both relate to conversion and both speak of what salvation entails.

The new birth (or second birth) represents the creation of an altogether new life in the individual, which wasn’t hitherto there. The element within us that prevented that life from being realized was a spirit that was at enmity to God through the Fall. Before the new birth can be experienced, a spiritual resurrection must sovereignly be activated by the Lord. Man needs divine intervention to raise him from his awful spiritual condition and eternal death (the second death). The means by which God perfects this is by the first resurrection, which brings life. It is the resurrection of the spirit that causes the new birth. We are raised out of our spiritual death. Regeneration involves a spiritual resurrection which causes a spiritual new birth. That is undeniable from studying Scripture.

You did not make one reference to Scripture, but we know the Scriptures you refer to.

However this was all your opinion just like every other poster gives their opinion.

You are wrong from the get go in Genesis.

Adam died physical and spiritually, the whole death deal. That was God's promise. Not some man made opinion that glosses over the whole point of death.

We are physically and spiritually dead. That is the point of both a physical and spiritual resurrection, no?

You deny a physical death but insist only spiritual. Then you claim a spiritual resurrection, when you did not eat from the tree, Adam disobeyed God.

Our spirit is not dead. We are dead without and separated from our spirit. When is the last or first time you were in communication with your spirit? It certainly is not talking to yourself. Your soul is the mind on your end. You are not a split being in the same body. If you are in communication with a spirit, it would be a demon, not your own spirit. That is why we have the Holy Spirit instead of our own spirit. Adam lost both physical body and spirit. That is the state of being dead. This body is not your permanent body. The Holy Spirit is not your permanent spirit. The Day of redemption is your physical death. You don't need the Holy Spirit in Paradise.

Since you did not address any particular Scriptures, just read this as correcting your erroneous interpretation with one you can freely reject, but makes more sense instead of explaining away what God can or can not do with human reasoning.

God said they would die. Not partially, but all the way. Your physical body is dead, your soul needs a spiritual birth to even start on the road to the restoration, of Adam's original son of God, image.

Ponder this verse:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Then reason your way out of the point this temporal body is not dead. Adam was given a dead body, and you inherited it from him. That is why you need to be made alive. Not just a spiritual resurrection, I hope your spirit is not dead or a demon. But you need God’s permanent incorruptible physical body instead of Adam's dead flesh; the first resurrection, which is physical.

Paul said (in so many words) you can't have the living body, until you exit the dead one.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes the two words used in Revelation 20:4-6 are zao (alive in a human body wherever else the word appears in the New Testament) and anastasis (always referring to the bodily resurrection). There is no such concept as spiritual "resurrection" in the New Testament.

Amen. I thought I was the only one with common sense. The only point is that, we cannot speak of any 'resurrection', that does not include the body. It's the same as speaking of being justified with Christ, that does not include works.

And I say it's not by chance, that partaking of a spiritual resurrection only, is taught by the same who teach partaking of a faith justification only. ;)

Adam was created body and soul, and when the Spirit of God breathed His life into him, Adam became a living soul. The Spirit breathes where he desires and so it is with the one who is born (gennao) of the Spirit.

That's an interesting way of putting it, and I must agree. Like the wind, the Spirit of God moves upon the face of the earth where He will. And on the 6th day, the Lord made a body of flesh, that He would breathe into a soul made in His own image. And man became a living soul in a natural body.

I like that.

Eternal life is always connected with being alive (zao) in a human body in the New Testament

What about the souls of the dead in Christ, that are in His presence now? Don't they have eternal life? And we have eternal life in Christ on earth, even while the mortal body lives. And eternal life with an immortal body is not until the resurrection. And natural flesh and blood cannot inherit the everlasting kingdom of Christ.

I would rather say, that a soul cannot have eternal life with Christ dwelling in us,a nd it has nothing to do with the mortal body, other than how we live in it on earth.

, and this is why the concept of the bodily resurrection of the dead is inextricably part of the gospel.

True. If we don't believe in the resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen, and we are not saved. Believing the gospel demands that we believe the soul lives beyond the grave. Otherwise, we are as natural men most miserable, with hope in this life only. Either living in fear of the grave, or coming up with vain religions and philosophies like reincarnation or oblivion.

That's how we're born when we come into the world: alive in our own human body, (because that's how Adam was created).

Exactly. We come into the world lightened by Christ, exactly the same as Adam, except by the womb. Christ breathes our living soul into our bodies, the same as He did with Adam. David shows Christ creating our souls in Him image, in the lowest parts of the earth, and then breathing us into a conceived body of flesh in the womb.

Men and women now conceive the body, while Christ still breathes His Spirit into it, so that man becomes a living soul in the womb. That's how babes kick in the womb.

Abortion politics science of fetal tissue only, is just the devil's lie for murder of an innocent babe, that God has already touched.

Not only so, but all of the following verses use one or more of the other three Greek words referring to the bodily resurrection, and all are speaking about the bodily resurrection from the dead:-

égersis; anístēmi; egeírō:

|| Matthew 9:25;

I'll have to contend with this reading, as resurrection from the dead. The resurrection of the dead, does not only have to do with the body, but has specifically to do with an immortal body unto judgment of life or shame.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Being raised from the dead back to natural life, is not the same thing. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, to live again on earth, which is called the dead are raised (Luke 7:22). But the resurrection of the dead in Christ is attained to at the final end of our natural life on earth.


And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

So eternal life (in eternity) is inextricably linked to being alive forever in a body that does not die.

I can agree that having enteral life of the Spirit living within our souls, while still in mortal flesh, is not the same as being resurrected unto enteral life with immortal bodies.

I believe this is a very sould point. It also shows the error of OSAS types who declare they have eternal life forever now, is as living enterally forever. They bypass the need to endure unto the end, that the obedient may inherit the kingdom of God and enteral salvation.

I think you have hit on something, that has been puzzling me about exactly how to refute the error.

Being saved now is not yet obtaining eternal salvation, nmo more than having eternal life in the soul now, is living eternally after the resurrection of the dead. It's the same as entering into the kingdom of God while on earth by the Spirit, vs inheriting the kingdom of God forever by the resurrection of the dead.

The concept of resurrection from death is always associated with the body in the Bible - with the bodily resurrection. The Bible never equates being born (gennáō) of the Spirit with anástasis ("The Resurrection"), because in the Bible the resurrection is always referring to (the) bodily resurrection from death, without exception.

Jesus said to those who are still alive (zao) in their own human bodies,

"Yet a little while and the world does not see Me any more. But you see Me. Because I live, you shall live also.
At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:19-20).

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4).

Jesus alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16). Those who die / fall asleep in Christ are clothed with Christ's immortality, who alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16).

What about the wicked dead dying in their sins?

This is why Paul also taught, "(God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

It's quite obvious though that until our own bodily resurrection, Christians cannot be found in heaven bodily (the way Jesus is, and the way possibly Enoch and Elijah are).

No saint has His heavenly body yet. The souls in His presence are awaiting the resurrection of their dead bodies.

I suppose these human priests in heaven that Amils talk about, who have died in Christ and who now have no limbs, are going about shaking incense burners?

IMO Amillennialism rips everything the Lord and His apostles taught us out of context and ignores so many biblical facts. They have forgotten that God's purpose never changes and God created Adam with a body and a soul. Those who are born sons and daughters of Adam are born with a body and a soul.

Christ still creates the souls, and forms the bodies in the womb by the seed of man.

Adam lost the eternal life God had breathed into him when he became a living soul and as a result began to die physically also.

Sorry no. The body of man is created naturally by Christ like any other creature on earth: mortal. Al flesh is as grass and all grass dies naturally.

The last Adam bore Adam's (our) sin and died, descended into hades and rose again, and He is the resurrection and the Life.

True

But Revelation talks about a second death, which no one has yet experienced,

Not until the first beast and prophet are cast there. Two men will have the honor of proceeding the devil and his angels into the lake of fire.

To separate the spiritual from the physical the way Amillennialism does is Dualism.

You're not teaching the natural theology, that souls of men are their mortal bodies, are you?

 

[WPM]

I thought I was the only one with common sense.

You think soooooo highly of yourself. Pride comes before a fall.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then your 'part' in the Lord's resurrection, is as worthless are you 'part' in reigning with Him.

The silliness of it, is that you claim a part in a resurrection, where you also say you have no resurrection at all.

it's all just doctrinal imagination of words without any substance to it.

There is something very wrong with you. You are basically telling me that my belief that I have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection is worthless. So, I guess you believe what Paul wrote about in these passages is worthless then?

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Romans 6:9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

You have no part in a resurrection, that is no resurrection for you. You claim a part in a resurrection, that you say you don't yet have.

All believers share in Christ's resurrection in a spiritual sense as the passages I quoted above indicate. I guess you don't accept what Paul taught.

All you're really teaching is another kind of OSAS unconditional eternal security, through having a resurrection 'in part'.

Nonsense. I don't teach that at all.

You teach for yourself a part in Christ's resurrection, as a doctrinal guarantee of being in the bodily resurrection.

No, I don't teach that. I don't believe that it's a guarantee that someone will continue to keep their faith in Christ until they die.

You think you are already spiritually there in heaven, from which you cannot fall.

I never said that. Why do you want to try to tell me what I believe instead of letting me tell you what I believe?

I know. Only 'in part'. It's a 'partial' resurrection. You're head is in heaven, while your body is still on earth. And that makes perfect sense, since only the beheaded have part in the first resurrection of the blessed.

It's sheer doctrinal gobbledygook trying to claim part in a resurrection, that you deny having bodily. You're head's been resurrected only, just waiting for the body to join you in heaven. Which of course, is a form of OSAS soul separation doctrine, where the souls in heaven, are no longer responsible for the deeds of their bodies still back on earth.

I don't believe that my soul is in heaven. You are completely confused. You have made up beliefs that no one actually has and you're wasting a bunch of time arguing against these imaginary beliefs that no one has. Do you know that you can't get the time back that you waste doing this?

The only time the saints will have part in Jesus' resurrection, is when they also are raised bodily in the likeness of His resurrection.

That is not what scripture teaches. You apparently have never read Paul's epistles. Read the following verse:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

It indicates that "the second death has no power over" those who have had part in (share in) the first resurrection. Tell me, does the second death have power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? It doesn't, right? Their fate is already sealed, right? So, that means someone does not have to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them. So, this means that one can share in the first resurrection and have it so that the second death has no power over them even before they are bodily resurrected.

 

[Zao is life]

That's an interesting way of putting it, and I must agree. Like the wind, the Spirit of God moves upon the face of the earth where He will.

I didn't say it. Jesus said it. I was quoting His words.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8​

And on the 6th day, the Lord made a body of flesh, that He would breathe into a soul made in His own image. And man became a living soul in a natural body.

I like that.

The sons of Adam are born into the world with a body and a soul without eternal life. The Spirit of God needs to breathe life into us in order that we can be born of the Spirit. Adam was created with a body and a soul. He only became a living soul when the Spirit of God breathed life into him.​

What about the souls of the dead in Christ, that are in His presence now? Don't they have eternal life? And we have eternal life in Christ on earth, even while the mortal body lives.

You answered your own question:

And eternal life with an immortal body is not until the resurrection. And natural flesh and blood cannot inherit the everlasting kingdom of Christ.

Adam was not created as a soul only.

I would rather say, that a soul cannot have eternal life with Christ dwelling in us, and it has nothing to do with the mortal body, other than how we live in it on earth.

Sorry no. Al flesh is as grass and all grass dies naturally.

There is a reason for it:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever,
therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken.
And He drove out the man. And He placed cherubs at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. Gen 3:22-24

And out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The tree of life also was in the middle of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,
but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Gen 2:9, 16 &17

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. John 3:4

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life, which bore twelve fruits, each yielding its fruit according to one month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:2​

The body of man is created naturally by Christ like any other creature on earth: mortal.

No. Adam was not created mortal. He only died when he lost his connection to the source of Life who had breathed everlasting life into his soul.

Death (mortality) came to all men because of it. The last Adam took the penalty for Adam's sin, and the sin of all the sons and daughters of Adam, upon Himself, died and rose again. He IS The Resurrection and The Life.​

David shows Christ creating our souls in Him image, in the lowest parts of the earth, and then breathing us into a conceived body of flesh in the womb.

Scripture please. David does not show that. God only created Adam and Eve - once, as a body and a soul. Not billions of Adams and Eves over and over again.

We are born into Adam when we are born of the flesh. We are in the last Adam who rose again from the dead when we are born from above of the Spirit of God. God saw the souls of all men when He created Adam. We can't claim He creates the souls of people over and over before each one is born. I would like to see a scripture which unambiguously tells us that God creates a soul for a fetus before the baby is born. Maybe God breathes a soul into a fetus, but without breathing eternal life into that soul. That would be like two times born of the Spirit from above - once before and once after the baby is born into the world.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6.

This is what David wrote:

"Certainly you made my mind and heart;
you wove me together in my mother's womb.
I will give you thanks because your deeds are awesome and amazing.
You knew me thoroughly;
my bones were not hidden from you,
when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth. "

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Ps.139:13-15; Gen 2:7

"Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence." Ps.139:16.

It's talking about the Messiah, Jesus, the last Adam.

There are no scriptures that tell us about where the souls in fetus' come from.​

We come into the world lightened by Christ, exactly the same as Adam, except by the womb. Christ breathes our living soul into our bodies, the same as He did with Adam.

We are still all born into this world with a body and a soul, just as Adam was created with a body and a soul, and then the Spirit of God breathed His Life into Adam's soul. The Spirit of God is the giver of eternal life. The soul of man does not possess eternal life until the Spirit of God breathes His life into man. In Adam's case, after creation. In our cases, after birth (after the birth of the flesh).

The soul of man is not the Spirit of God. Adam was created with a soul. We are born with a body and a soul but without any spiritual life, and only receive it when the Spirit of God, who breathes where He desires, breathes life into us when we are born of the Spirit. We do not come into this world lightened by Christ. We are born without the life of the Spirit.​

I'll have to contend with this reading, as resurrection from the dead. The resurrection of the dead, does not only have to do with the body, but has specifically to do with an immortal body unto judgment of life or shame.

So IMO we can either believe Paul, or not. Paul says that the flesh-and-blood mortal body that dies will become the seed of the spiritual, immortal body that rises. It will still be a tangible body, just as Christ's resurrected body was tangible and Thomas could put his finger in Jesus' side, and Jesus could eat fish with His disciples, yet He could walk through walls and appear suddenly far away from where He had just been, and appear in many different physical locations at once.

Adam's body only became mortal because he sinned and lost access to the tree of life so that he could live forever. It has to die and become the seed of a resurrected, immortal body in the way in which Jesus and Paul taught.​

 

[robert derrick]

The sons of Adam are born into the world with a body and a soul without eternal life.​

All souls are created by Christ in the lowest parts of the earth, the same as any man. There are no mortal souls created in the image of the eternal God.

The souls of men die when they sin against God, and since all men have sinned like Adam, then all men need to be born again of God, as pure newborn babes from the womb.

All souls coming into the world are lightened by Christ and children of God, even as Adam was a son of God.

By sinning with the devil against God, the children of God become children of the devil.

The Spirit of God needs to breathe life into us in order that we can be born of the Spirit.​

Born again of God. As a newborn babe coming into the world, but now with knowledge of having done good and evil.

Babes are not children of the devil, by creation of Christ and birth into the world.

Adam was created with a body and a soul.​

I guess you are teaching the natural theology of souls being mortal and bodies.

It's false. The JWs use it to teach oblivion at death of the body, and do away with tormenting hell and LOF.

He only became a living soul when the Spirit of God breathed life into him.​

All men's bodies are mortal flesh and blood, like every other living creature created by Christ on earth.

God breathes our souls into our bodies by His Spirit.

Adam was not created as a soul only.

His soul was created by Christ, and breathed into a body made of flesh, and then he was called Adam.

The same for Jesus, whose soul is not created, but did come down out of heaven to enter into the body of flesh, that was prepared for Him by the Spirit in Mary's womb, and then He was called Jesus.

There is a reason for it:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever,​

Speaking of His soul living forever with God.

All flesh is grass speaks of all flesh being the same as grass: naturally mortal. Even as Jesus' body was naturally made mortal of the flesh of Mary's womb, that had the the seed of David, Abraham, Noah, and Adam.

No. Adam was not created mortal.​

His body was, as all living creatures are.

He only died when he lost his connection to the source of Life who had breathed everlasting life into his soul.​

When he sinned against God and separated himself from God's Spirit of Life, and fellowship with the Lord in the light.

Death (mortality) came to all men because of it.​

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death passes upon all men for sinning themselves, even as it did for Adam and Eve.

Scripture does not say. And so death passes upon all men, for that Adam has sinned.

We need to teach what Scripture says, if we are going to teach the truth of God of Scripture.