Jim B
Well-Known Member
a) I am not "trolling amigo". b) What business is it of yours if I point out his laziness?Stop trolling amigo Jim
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a) I am not "trolling amigo". b) What business is it of yours if I point out his laziness?Stop trolling amigo Jim
Yes, you are trolling him, this time I'm reporting you.a) I am not "trolling amigo". b) What business is it of yours if I point out his laziness?
Go ahead and report me. I'm putting you on ignore.Yes, you are trolling him, this time I'm reporting you.
You have a good day.
Bs"dTo the trenches my friend . JESUS ALONE is our hope and our salvation , HE ALONE is who we shall point too .
Every word o truth in the holy scriptures is GOOD for our soul . Now lift those hands up my friend , ITS LORD PRAISINGTIME .
Bs"dPage 7-
3. The "we" versus "he" passages:
"throughout Isaiah whenever the pronouns 'we', 'our', or 'us' are introduced abruptly, as in 53:1ff. (that is, without an explicit identification of the speakers, as in 2:3; 3:6; 4:1; etc.), it is always the prophet speaking on behalf of the people of Israel with whom he identifies (1:9f; 16.6; 24.26; 33.2, 20; 42.24; 59:9-12; 63:15-19; 64:3-11; etc.).
Accordingly, if the 'we' or 'us' in 53:1ff is the prophet speaking on behalf of Israel, then the 'he' or 'him' of these same verses cannot also be a reference to Israel." [HI:JSS53:110]
Bs"d
Nobody in his right mind will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.
However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:
"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, both singular and plural, all for the Jewish people.
That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
Nobody will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.
However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:
"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, all for the Jewish people.
That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
The facts have not changed. The facts are that Christians don't have any proof from the book of Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.
The fact remains that Israel is many times called "the servant of God". See here for examples: Isaiah 53
The fact remains that the context of Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel.
The fact remains that when you fill in the people of Israel for the servant, then you get the concept that Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel. That is a simple logical concept which is found all through the Tanach.
When you want to say the the servant is God/messiah, then you get the concept that God is punished for the sins of Israel, an illogical concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.
The truth is really not hard to see.
You seem stunned-as to the Pronouns and verbs-that has already been covered-just look up my posts.Bs"d
Nobody in his right mind will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.
However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:
"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, both singular and plural, all for the Jewish people.
That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
Nobody will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.
However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:
"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, all for the Jewish people.
That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.
The facts have not changed. The facts are that Christians don't have any proof from the book of Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.
The fact remains that Israel is many times called "the servant of God". See here for examples: Isaiah 53
The fact remains that the context of Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel.
The fact remains that when you fill in the people of Israel for the servant, then you get the concept that Israel is being punished for the sins of Israel. That is a simple logical concept which is found all through the Tanach.
When you want to say the the servant is God/messiah, then you get the concept that God is punished for the sins of Israel, an illogical concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.
The truth is really not hard to see.
Isa 42:24 Who gave Ya’akov as loot, and Yisroel to ones plundering? Did not Hashem, He against Whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in the darkhei HaShem, neither were they obedient unto His torah."Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
Interesting-how can a sin-laden Israel "die" for the sins of the whole world?The truth is really not hard to see.
I have already answered-just follow the road.Bs"d
I invested enough time and energy in you.
It's time you show me where your assumptions are to be found in the Tanach and in dictionaries. Go ahead, I'm waiting.
Proves that Yeshua is not God?This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!
By Jack KinsellaThe Shema is the central prayer in the Jewish prayer book. It is generally one of the first prayers a Jewish child learns. The Shema defines what it means to be Jewish as it has since the days of Moses: Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad—“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). It is upon this central truth that Judaism was founded as the world's first uniquely monotheistic faith, surrounded as it was by a world of polytheistic paganism. The Bible declares emphatically that “there is no God besides Me” (Deuteronomy 32:39), “I am the LORD and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:18), together with similarly strong declarations in Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 46:10, Exodus 3:14, and elsewhere. So to someone born into a Jewish family and then raised in the Jewish faith, the Christian understanding of the Trinity is pagan polytheism, as is the Christian understanding of Yeshua as both Son of God and God the Son. To a Jew, this sounds like another god, a different god than the God of the Shema. So to him, a call to follow Yeshua is a call to be unfaithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And if God has a Son, why didn't He mention Him in the Old Testament?As a matter of fact, He did. Read Psalm 2:12: “Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.” Of Whom do you think the Psalmist is referring when he speaks of the “Son”? Among the Bible's unmistakably monotheistic declarations are a number of perplexing assertions of plurality. It is perplexing because the Bible is most definite that there is only one God, but there is just as definitely a plurality about His Person. Of all the other names Moses might have made use of for God, he used Elohim, a plural invariably translated “us” as in Genesis 1:26—“Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness . . .” or Genesis 11:7—“Let us go down and confuse their language . . .” Moses had other, singular Names he could have chosen for God besides Elohim, but Moses used the plural form because it was the one that God inspired him to use. Other plural terms used for God in the Old Testament include panim (equivalent to the Greek prosopa, for “faces,” “persons,” or “presence”), which is found in Exodus 33:14-15, Psalm 27:8-9, and Deuteronomy 4:37. The literal Hebrew for “Maker” in Job 35:10, Psalm 149:2, and Isaiah 54:5 is the plural, “Makers.” For “Creator” in Ecclesiastes 12:1, the literal Hebrew is “Creators.” The Bible teaches that no man has ever seen God or can ever see God, yet there are numerous references to visible appearances of God in the Old Testament. Some of these are clear references to the Son of God, as in Daniel 3:25. The King had ordered three men thrown into the furnace, but the captain of the guard reported there were four walking unhurt in the midst of the flames. “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God” (NKJV). That the Son is also the eternal God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is demonstrated by the fact that He allows Himself to be worshipped—blasphemy for anyone else except God. There were also the three men that appeared to Abraham. Two were angels, but one the Bible refers to repeatedly as “the Lord.” Joshua 5:13-15 records a nearconfrontation between Joshua and a man that stood before him holding a drawn sword. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?” “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” The Bible says that Joshua threw himself down before the man and worshipped and was instructed to take off his sandals, for the place where he now stood was holy ground. This cannot be just an angel. Angels cannot accept worship. The commander of the Lord's Army is, in fact, the Lord Himself, since only the Lord can accept worship. The “Angel of the Lord” in Genesis 16:7, 13, Genesis 22:11-12, and Exodus 3:2-6 are similar examples of the pre-incarnate Redeemer that later stepped out of space and time to be born, fully God and fully man, to a Jewish virgin in Bethlehem. According to John 1:1-3, He was Yeshua of Nazareth, and simultaneously, God the Son, present at Creation and without Whom “nothing was made that has been made.” The Father and the Son are one God, but at the same time, two distinct Persons. Colossians 1:15 explains it this way: “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over all Creation.” Just as the Shema is the bedrock doctrine of Judaism, this truth is the bedrock doctrine of Christianity; “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16). Only as God the Son could He be our Redeemer—unless God Himself redeems us, we cannot be redeemed. The law of God demands perfect obedience to the Law—Yeshua is the only One who ever lived who fulfilled that demand. The law demands just punishment for those who sin—He fulfilled that demand as well. The law has been upheld. It is satisfied.To deny the Son is to deny the Father Who promised our redemption: “if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins” ( John 8:24).The truth is really not hard to see.
If your hope is not in CHRIST JESUS whom YHWH did send , then its not in YHWH who SENT HIM .Bs"d
You put your hope on JC.
I put my hope on the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
A denial of Christ JESUS is a denial of the Father who sent Him .You seem stunned-as to the Pronouns and verbs-that has already been covered-just look up my posts.
Yes, Messiah/Yeshua-was crushed for the sins of not only Israel, but of the sins of the whole world-truth is not really hard to see.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
--but you already know this, and have rejected what stands written before your eyes.
We are in a warfare my brother-give this a listen.A denial of Christ JESUS is a denial of the Father who sent Him .
John said well what spirit it is that denies JESUS as the Christ . As for the lambs we shall continue
to POINT to CHRIST ALONE whom GOD did send as the only means , the only name whereby one may be saved .
Keep marching on my friend . We point to CHRIST . He who honors the SON honors the FATHER .
The man actually thinks he knows torah . He believes he knows moses and the prophets .Proves that Yeshua is not God?
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Your emphatic assertion is proven to be false, according to Scriptures.