Galatians 5

[williemac]

Christianity is not based on men placing their faith where they will. That is still being saved by works.

Please show us the scripture that equates faith with works. I assure you that there are none. Faith and works are opposite. As well, please prove that faith is not a willing mindset. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (biblical) Faith is a willing response to the revealed word of God. Nothing more, nothing less. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. All normally functioning humans have the God given ability to hear, reason, and respond.

God has to get a hold of you and translate you into His kingdom. The faith must come from above.

Again, please prove this in scripture.

Anybody can trust in anything for whatever purpose they wish. But this is not the message of the bible.

The message of the bible is that if one wishes to have eternal life, one must forsake his own ability and humbly submit to the freely given gift of life by grace. Grace is the giving of a free gift. It is received by way of faith.

When we truly have faith a pipeline is opened with God. Then we see supernatural things. To walk by grace means we no longer walk as other men do...in their own limitations and sins. Grace is a freely given gift of a walk in an eternal place with Christ. Jesus Christ doesn't sin and neither will we when we abide in Him. Very simple! :)

A lot of talk. However, the supernatural is very definately to be expected and received. In my case it came to me among other things, as the ability to speak (pray) in tongues.

However, as Paul shared in several places, sin has not completely left us. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" (2Cor.4:7). The point of that is so we do not get too haughty about our walk with God. As well, Jesus did not say "abide in Me and you will not sin". He said "abide in Me and you will bear fruit". The significance of our walk is not merely in behaving well, it is in loving our brother and fellow man.

Love does not seek its own. What this means is that love has outward focus. It does not act for its own sake, but for the sake of its object. Is Jesus impressed with how well a person can behave? Only to the sake that that person is a positive influence and effect toward those around him. A person can be 'not sinning' and still have little or no love. What is our focus? What is our motive?

 

[Episkopos]

Please show us the scripture that equates faith with works. I assure you that there are none. Faith and works are opposite. As well, please prove that faith is not a willing mindset. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (biblical) Faith is a willing response to the revealed word of God. Nothing more, nothing less. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. All normally functioning humans have the God given ability to hear, reason, and respond.

Have you ever read the book of James? We are saved in order to do the works that are from above. How can you miss the purpose od something and still claim any understanding? The purpose of a car is for transportation...not say... a paperweight. Simple enough! So grace is meant to do the works from heaven...otherwise we have no clue what grace really is.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Grace does this furnishing so that we are ready to work in the kingdom.

Again, please prove this in scripture.

Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The message of the bible is that if one wishes to have eternal life, one must forsake his own ability and humbly submit to the freely given gift of life by grace. Grace is the giving of a free gift. It is received by way of faith.

The bible is not according to our wishes (we have Sears catalogues for that ...the bible is not a "seers" catalogue)...but the will of God. These are actually in stark contradiction. Those who seek to save their lives...will lose them (yes Jesus said that)

Grace is not the giving of a free gift. The giving of a free gift is called "the giving of a free gift". You misunderstand the gospel. Grace is the power of God towards us that enables us to DO His commandments. We receive the grace of God in the form of the Holy Spirit who fills us so that no impurity has any room in us. We become as filled vessels that overflow into the world...like a spring of living water from heaven. You can't force a sin into an outflowing source from heaven.

Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Try this simple experiment...turn a garden hose on then try to get a blade of grass to fall into the running water. You will see that the grass bounces off the outpouring stream. When you have truly experienced grace from heaven you will understand that sin finds no place in one that is filled with the Spirit. Try reading 1 John for the scriptural evidence you are sure to require! ;)

A lot of talk. However, the supernatural is very definately to be expected and received. In my case it came to me among other things, as the ability to speak (pray) in tongues.

You don't realize how you have exposed yourself here. Most people's "tongues" are just a lot of talk.

However, as Paul shared in several places, sin has not completely left us. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" (2Cor.4:7). The point of that is so we do not get too haughty about our walk with God. As well, Jesus did not say "abide in Me and you will not sin". He said "abide in Me and you will bear fruit". The significance of our walk is not merely in behaving well, it is in loving our brother and fellow man.

Love does not seek its own. What this means is that love has outward focus. It does not act for its own sake, but for the sake of its object. Is Jesus impressed with how well a person can behave? Only to the sake that that person is a positive influence and effect toward those around him. A person can be 'not sinning' and still have little or no love. What is our focus? What is our motive?

You have a bizarre view of not sinning. Love is what causes us to not sin.

 

[RichardBurger]

Christianity is not based on men placing their faith where they will. That is still being saved by works. God has to get a hold of you and translate you into His kingdom. The faith must come from above. Anybody can trust in anything for whatever purpose they wish. But this is not the message of the bible. When we truly have faith a pipeline is opened with God. Then we see supernatural things. To walk by grace means we no longer walk as other men do...in their own limitations and sins. Grace is a freely given gift of a walk in an eternal place with Christ. Jesus Christ doesn't sin and neither will we when we abide in Him. Very simple! :)

You can call faith a work if you wish but I don't. As for placing faith where a person wishes I agree. Most religious people place their faith in what they feel God wants them to do in order to be saved. They search through the scriptures to find things they can do that will assure them of salvation.

But the scriptures are clear for this age. We are saved by God's grace extended to all that will place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross; His shed blood that takes away the sins of the world. - But it is only applied when the person actually places their belief, faith, trust, and confdence in Jesus' shed blood. - In other words, if you can't believe His blood pays for your sins, then it doesn't

 

[Episkopos]

You can call faith a work if you wish but I don't. As for placing faith where a person wishes I agree. Most religious people place their faith in what they feel God wants them to do in order to be saved. They search through the scriptures to find things they can do that will assure them of salvation.

But the scriptures are clear for this age. We are saved by God's grace extended to all that will place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross; His shed blood that takes away the sins of the world. - But it is only applied when the person actually places their belief, faith, trust, and confdence in Jesus' shed blood. - In other words, if you can't believe His blood pays for your sins, then it doesn't

This has nothing to do with reality. It is not like God hears us if we get the pronunciation of His name right. We don't apply Jesus' blood to ourselves. God does this. The blood of Christ is for the whole world. By taking this sacrifice for ourselves we become guilty of presumption...claiming to be special in that WE are the ones He specifically died for. Anybody can claim anything. Ironically God will choose the ones who don't make great claims for themselves. There is this thing called humility. :)

But God has no favourites. We have to make the cut. Those whom He calls He also tests. Those who have been approved by HIM (not us) are then vetted into the future kingdom. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[RichardBurger]

This has nothing to do with reality. It is not like God hears us if we get the pronunciation of His name right. We don't apply Jesus' blood to ourselves. God does this. The blood of Christ is for the whole world. By taking this sacrifice for ourselves we become guilty of presumption...claiming to be special in that WE are the ones He specifically died for. Anybody can claim anything. Ironically God will choose the ones who don't make great claims for themselves. There is this thing called humility. :)

But God has no favourites. We have to make the cut. Those whom He calls He also tests. Those who have been approved by HIM (not us) are then vetted into the future kingdom. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Many are called but few are chosen.

Nothing to do with reality!!!??? So you think that God does not hear the person who comes to Jesus with faith in His work on the cross. No one that comes to Jesus is being presumptious. They are claiming the promises of God.

But the scriptures are clear for this age. We are saved by God's grace extended to all that will place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross; His shed blood that takes away the sins of the world. - But it is only applied when the person actually places their belief, faith, trust, and confdence in Jesus' shed blood. - In other words, if you can't believe His blood pays for your sins, then it doesn't

--- In other words your statement "By taking this sacrifice for ourselves we become guilty of presumption...claiming to be special in that WE are the ones He specifically died for." is a bunch of bull. --- Of course He died for us. It isn't a claim we make. It is the word of God which plainly states He died for us. It is the promise of salvation by God's grace.


This is the gospel that was given to Paul for us. It places Jesus' work on the cross as the center of salvation. It gives Him all the glory.

But religious people want to share in the work of their salvation so that they can claim glory for themselves.

 

[Episkopos]

Nothing to do with reality!!!??? So you think that God does not hear the person who comes to Jesus with faith in His work on the cross. No one that comes to Jesus is being presumptious. They are claiming the promises of God.

But the scriptures are clear for this age. We are saved by God's grace extended to all that will place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross; His shed blood that takes away the sins of the world. - But it is only applied when the person actually places their belief, faith, trust, and confdence in Jesus' shed blood. - In other words, if you can't believe His blood pays for your sins, then it doesn't

--- In other words your statement "By taking this sacrifice for ourselves we become guilty of presumption...claiming to be special in that WE are the ones He specifically died for." is a bunch of bull. --- Of course He died for us. It isn't a claim we make. It is the word of God which plainly states He died for us. It is the promise of salvation by God's grace.


This is the gospel that was given to Paul for us. It places Jesus' work on the cross as the center of salvation. It gives Him all the glory.

But religious people want to share in the work of their salvation so that they can claim glory for themselves.

Seeking the Lord is not the same as name it and claim it. Where in the bible does it say that those who claim something will then have it? You'd think the way Jesus speaks of those practicioners of said method (Pharisees) would warn people away from presumptions like these.

The truth is that we claim nothing for ourselves. We actually wait on the Lord! :)

 

[RichardBurger]

Seeking the Lord is not the same as name it and claim it. Where in the bible does it say that those who claim something will then have it? You'd think the way Jesus speaks of those practicioners of said method (Pharisees) would warn people away from presumptions like these.

The truth is that we claim nothing for ourselves. We actually wait on the Lord! :)

You really like your "name it and claim it" idea don't you. Placing faith in Jesus is not name it and claim it.

Romans 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

So having belief, faith, trust and confidence in the promise of salvation thru the shed blood of Jesus doesn't count. That is a presumption.

Believe what you will but unless you are counting on the shed blood to reconcile you to God you will never enter heaven.

 

[williemac]

Have you ever read the book of James? We are saved in order to do the works that are from above. How can you miss the purpose od something and still claim any understanding? The purpose of a car is for transportation...not say... a paperweight. Simple enough! So grace is meant to do the works from heaven...otherwise we have no clue what grace really is.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is true. However, in regards to receiving things such as justification, life, righteousness, they are not given as a reward for works. Works of law do not save. Works of love, which is what James was talking about, simply demonstrate that one by faith, has received the new man. Past tense. Of course we have a purpose.

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Let us not confuse this with being perfecty sinless. No one is perfectly sinless in this life. We are not required to be flawless in our life. The Lord knows this is impossible. But the difference between this covenant and the covenant of law, is that our flaws do not disqualify us.

Grace does this furnishing so that we are ready to work in the kingdom.

agreed

Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

amen

The bible is not according to our wishes (we have Sears catalogues for that ...the bible is not a "seers" catalogue)...but the will of God. These are actually in stark contradiction. Those who seek to save their lives...will lose them (yes Jesus said that)

Amen. This speaks of self righteousness and pride. The humble will be exalted, the proud will be abased. Those who think their works are saving them are in danger.

Grace is not the giving of a free gift. The giving of a free gift is called "the giving of a free gift". You misunderstand the gospel. Grace is the power of God towards us that enables us to DO His commandments. We receive the grace of God in the form of the Holy Spirit who fills us so that no impurity has any room in us. We become as filled vessels that overflow into the world...like a spring of living water from heaven. You can't force a sin into an outflowing source from heaven.

You have not defined grace. You have merely described what it accomplishes. By grace we receive life by way of the new birth, and by grace we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. These gifts are freely given, by faith. Thus we are saved by grace, through faith. Grace is the giving of a free gift. The gift itself is not grace. It is what came by grace.

Gal_5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Again, this proves that in our flesh there is sin. Do you think anyone walks in the spirit 24/7...365 days?

John_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

amen. This is pure joy!

Try this simple experiment...turn a garden hose on then try to get a blade of grass to fall into the running water. You will see that the grass bounces off the outpouring stream. When you have truly experienced grace from heaven you will understand that sin finds no place in one that is filled with the Spirit. Try reading 1 John for the scriptural evidence you are sure to require! ;)

Try reading 1John 2:1. He exhorts them to not sin, but assures them that if they do they have an advocate. What you are describing is not what grace is, it is what grace does.

You don't realize how you have exposed yourself here. Most people's "tongues" are just a lot of talk.

On the contrary, I have no problem exposing myself. This is not about me. I am not most people. And who are you to judge others anyway? Tongues are real and relevant. But that is another topic.

You have a bizarre view of not sinning. Love is what causes us to not sin.

' Bizarre' is your opinion. But love is actually the fulfillment of the law. A smoker can certainly love his brother. But is smoking not a sin? An obese person can certainly love his brother. But many obese are that way because of fleshly indulgence. We are constantly doing harm to our own bodies. But nonetheless, we still can bear fruit. That is not a bizarre view. It is simply the way things are. It is a matter of understanding what sin actually is, and not getting freaked out by the possibility or reality that it still exists within us as we go about bearing fruit and doing good works. " We have this treasure in earthen vessels..." (2Cor.4:7)...." that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us". Paul expalins there,that God has left us in a compromised condition so that we do not get haughty or prideful in our walk, but rather can recognize that we are in constant need of His mercy and grace.

 

[Episkopos]

You really like your "name it and claim it" idea don't you. Placing faith in Jesus is not name it and claim it.

Romans 10:8-11
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

So having belief, faith, trust and confidence in the promise of salvation thru the shed blood of Jesus doesn't count. That is a presumption.

Believe what you will but unless you are counting on the shed blood to reconcile you to God you will never enter heaven.

The bible says "believe and you will be saved"...not...."believe and then consider yourself saved". The bible is not a self help book. For example...buses go to bus stops. We read that going to a bus stop causes us to be on the bus. But should we consider ourselves on the bus by just standing at a bus stop? How many refuse to get on an actual bus since they believe by being at a bus stop that they are already on the bus? Sound crazy? Well this explains the "faith" of many modern Christians. There is no reality to it...no power...no actual relationship or encounter with God...just a religious formula being touted as it's replacemant. You just consider that you have believed and now claim you are saved...al this in one's own mind. But when the truth is spoken it is denied in favour of a preconditioned and inoculated unreality that stops that person from actually becoming "saved".

The truth is that when we have believed to the proper depth then God Himself intervenes and saves us. God decides the type of faith required...not us. When God does something it is a perfect work...miraculous and on a biblical scale and depth! Those who have actually experienced this grace can testify of the overcoming power that accompanies a subsequent abiding in the presence of God.

WOW! Tell me how you are demonstrating the Spirit and His power. - Perhaps you are trying to tell me that you no longer sin in the flesh because you think you are walking in the Spirit and His power. When did the Spirit's power become your power?. When did you become perfect in the flesh?

Philippians 3:1-3
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

Are you sure you are not trying to demonstrat your own power to not sin?

Perhaps when Paul said "1Co_2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" you think he was telling you that you had this power too. - Paul was talking about himself, not you.

You are doing a backward flip here. I am talking of my experience upon faith in Christ. You say I am just claiming something that Paul said....how ironic!!!

I have no power to not sin. Abiding in Christ provides the power to not sin. Anyone who knows Christ knows this.

 

[RichardBurger]

The bible says "believe and you will be saved"...not...."believe and then consider yourself saved". The bible is not a self help book. For example...buses go to bus stops. We read that going to a bus stop causes us to be on the bus. But should we consider ourselves on the bus by just standing at a bus stop? How many refuse to get on an actual bus since they believe by being at a bus stop that they are already on the bus? Sound crazy? Well this explains the "faith" of many modern Christians. There is no reality to it...no power...no actual relationship or encounter with God...just a religious formula being touted as it's replacemant. You just consider that you have believed and now claim you are saved...al this in one's own mind. But when the truth is spoken it is denied in favour of a preconditioned and inoculated unreality that stops that person from actually becoming "saved".

The truth is that when we have believed to the proper depth then God Himself intervenes and saves us. God decides the type of faith required...not us. When God does something it is a perfect work...miraculous and on a biblical scale and depth! Those who have actually experienced this grace can testify of the overcoming power that accompanies a subsequent abiding in the presence of God.

You are correct when you say "believe and you will be saved"... But you are incorrect when you say ...."believe and then consider yourself saved".

Believing God means you confess that Jesus was sent by God so that His shed blood pays for all the sins of the world. A person has to name Jesus as their savior and claim His work on the cross as being the attonement for their sins; "name and claim" is about right.

You are in no postion to tell me what the scriptures mean because you have shown you don't really believe them. If you did you would know that their is no other name and no other work than Jesus and His work on the cross.

I think you are judging others by what you seem to see in yourself. You can not see into the hearts of others yet you impose your ideas about them as being the truth.

The power is the work of God when He sent His Son to pay for the sins of men. But you, wishing to be like God, want power for yourself.

The scripture says "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." -- But you have judged others as not believing on Him even when theyt have told you that believing on Him is what they do. You just can't see that anyone can be saved but yourself.

The words, belief, faith, trust, confidence and counting on, mean the same thing. I have belief, faith, trust, confidence and am counting on the promise of God in His word (the Bible) that "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." --- You try to elevate yourself as more righteous and closer to God than others and that comes from trhe spirit of "pride" and it will not get you into heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

You are correct when you say "believe and you will be saved"... But you are incorrect when you say ...."believe and then consider yourself saved".

Believing God means you confess that Jesus was sent by God so that His shed blood pays for all the sins of the world. A person has to name Jesus as their savior and claim His work on the cross as being the attonement for their sins; "name and claim" is about right.

You are in no postion to tell me what the scriptures mean because you have shown you don't really believe them. If you did you would know that their is no other name and no other work than Jesus and His work on the cross.

I think you are judging others by what you seem to see in yourself. You can not see into the hearts of others yet you impose your ideas about them as being the truth.

The power is the work of God when He sent His Son to pay for the sins of men. But you, wishing to be like God, want power for yourself.

The scripture says "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." -- But you have judged others as not believing on Him even when theyt have told you that believing on Him is what they do. You just can't see that anyone can be saved but yourself.

The words, belief, faith, trust, confidence and counting on, mean the same thing. I have belief, faith, trust, confidence and am counting on the promise of God in His word (the Bible) that "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." --- You try to elevate yourself as more righteous and closer to God than others and that comes from trhe spirit of "pride" and it will not get you into heaven.

You are correct when you say "believe and you will be saved"... But you are incorrect when you say ...."believe and then consider yourself saved".

That is what I am trying to point out to you. But you continue with your unreality and religious claiming. For you getting on the bus sounds like a work....so you would rather stand at a bus stop and claim to be on the bus. Enjoy the ride!

You try to elevate yourself as more righteous and closer to God than others and that comes from trhe spirit of "pride" and iot will not get you into heaven.

This is from your viewpoint of unreality. How can my reality be less real than yours? ....that is your reasoning. But to be a witness to the truth will always cause the stubborn to react by attacking what is trying to awaken them to the truth. No one likes their sleep disturbed.

The pride is found in your unteachability and lack of willingness to look harder at what you are claiming. I am trying to help you here.

Here is the typical headgame...

You buy a bible and read where it says..."believe and be saved"...then the human brain gets excited...Man, the Catholics never told me it was this easy!!! I DO already believe!!!! I root for Jesus when I watch Jesus movies!!! So the bible is telling me that I'm saved!!!! WOW! This is good news!!! I can now claim I'm saved!

Unfortunately this is the depth of the modern western church. The gospel is made out to be an information campaign. Just agree to the deal and you're guaranteed (guarantee yourself) that you're saved!!!! Ridiculous! No wonder the church is sliding more and more into the pit.

 

[Prentis]

Note: If we are walking with our faith in Jesus’ work on the cross then we have crucified the flesh because we no longer place our faith in what it can do but in what God has already done.

Many will say that verses 19-21 condemns everyone that commits those sins. But if that is true then it contradicts verses 1-18 which clearly show that the believer is not under the law of works.

This is nothing but a subtle and hidden form of gnostic teaching. Gnostics believed, among other things, that we were saved by having a certain special knowledge. According to this, we remain under the same power, and remain as powerless as the whole world in regards to sin, and yet are seen by God as pure because of a special knowledge, this being the sacrifice of Christ.

But this is a subversion of the true gospel which nullifies its power. The true gospel does not leave us powerless! Yes, we are weak, but in our weakness, he is strong, not powerless. Thus Christ commands his disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they are 'clothed with power from on high'. This is totally opposite from a modern gospel which leaves us blind, naked... and saved!

In that sense, the Laodiceans were gnostics; by the simple fact that they had knowledge, they believed themselves clothed and rich. But there was no reality to this.

Christ came and died, then was risen in power, and the promise is that if we die also with him, we also shall be raised in the same life, and in his likeness. Every man will die physically, so this co-death with him, the same kind of death, cannot simply be a physical one. It is a death to sin, a death to the world, and a death of our old nature, then, we are risen with him, walking in the same nature. If we are doing this, we cannot sin, otherwise Christ is a minister of sin! This is the reality we must enter.

But many today claim the benefits of such a walk without going through the death, and hence without receiving the new life.

 

[Episkopos]

This is nothing but a subtle and hidden form of gnostic teaching. Gnostics believed, among other things, that we were saved by having a certain special knowledge. According to this, we remain under the same power, and remain as powerless as the whole world in regards to sin, and yet are seen by God as pure because of a special knowledge, this being the sacrifice of Christ.

But this is a subversion of the true gospel which nullifies its power. The true gospel does not leave us powerless! Yes, we are weak, but in our weakness, he is strong, not powerless. Thus Christ commands his disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they are 'clothed with power from on high'. This is totally opposite from a modern gospel which leaves us blind, naked... and saved!

In that sense, the Laodiceans were gnostics; by the simple fact that they had knowledge, they believed themselves clothed and rich. But there was no reality to this.

Christ came and died, then was risen in power, and the promise is that if we die also with him, we also shall be raised in the same life, and in his likeness. Every man will die physically, so this co-death with him, the same kind of death, cannot simply be a physical one. It is a death to sin, a death to the world, and a death of our old nature, then, we are risen with him, walking in the same nature. If we are doing this, we cannot sin, otherwise Christ is a minister of sin! This is the reality we must enter.

But many today claim the benefits of such a walk without going through the death, and hence without receiving the new life.

Finally!!! Amen!! :)

 

[RichardBurger]

This is nothing but a subtle and hidden form of gnostic teaching. Gnostics believed, among other things, that we were saved by having a certain special knowledge. According to this, we remain under the same power, and remain as powerless as the whole world in regards to sin, and yet are seen by God as pure because of a special knowledge, this being the sacrifice of Christ.

But this is a subversion of the true gospel which nullifies its power. The true gospel does not leave us powerless! Yes, we are weak, but in our weakness, he is strong, not powerless. Thus Christ commands his disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they are 'clothed with power from on high'. This is totally opposite from a modern gospel which leaves us blind, naked... and saved!

In that sense, the Laodiceans were gnostics; by the simple fact that they had knowledge, they believed themselves clothed and rich. But there was no reality to this.

Christ came and died, then was risen in power, and the promise is that if we die also with him, we also shall be raised in the same life, and in his likeness. Every man will die physically, so this co-death with him, the same kind of death, cannot simply be a physical one. It is a death to sin, a death to the world, and a death of our old nature, then, we are risen with him, walking in the same nature. If we are doing this, we cannot sin, otherwise Christ is a minister of sin! This is the reality we must enter.

But many today claim the benefits of such a walk without going through the death, and hence without receiving the new life.

You preach man's works for salvation just as Episkopos does and it will get you, him, and others no where.
*
The religious just can't get over the fact that Jesus did all that was necessary for a person's salvation. But His work on the cross does not atone for their sins unless that person actually believes, trusts, has confidence, that it does.
*
I believe, have faith, trust, confidence in God’s word, His promises. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness before God, I am accounted as righteous before God when I believe the gospel of grace as Jesus gave it to Paul.
*
But the religious will always say I am wrong to place my belief, faith, trust and confidence in God’s words (promises). There is always something I must do in order to be saved.
*
In the garden the sin that separated Adam and Eve from God was the sin of not believing what God said. This is still the sin that sends men and women to hell today.
*
But you, and Episkopos, are free to believe in your power to do works if you wish but as for me, I will believe God and trust in His work on the cross.
*
I have included scriptures that support my belief but I bet you won’t take the time to really see what they say.
*
Romans 1:16-17 -- The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
NKJV
*
1 Corinthians 1:18-19 -- Christ the Power and Wisdom of God (cf. Isaiah 29:14)
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
NKJV
*
1 Corinthians 2:5-7
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
[Spiritual Wisdom]
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
NKJV
*
2 Corinthians 13:4
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
NKJV
*
1 Peter 1:4-9
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith — the salvation of your souls.
NKJV
　
　

 

[Prentis]

You preach man's works for salvation just as Episkopos does and it will get you, him, and others no where.
*

No, works IN salvation. You believe one part, that which is to your advantage (and apply it to yourself) but not the other. Let's take the simple example of that which God has 'prepared in advance'.

Rom. 9 [sup]22 [/sup]What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? [sup]23 [/sup]What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory —

This you believe. But in the same breath you deny this...
Eph. 2 [sup]10 [/sup]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

You happily claim the glory promised to those who would be found in him, but at the same time you make this very thing, being found in him, a magic unreality. But the truth is not hocus pocus, neither does it have loop holes; rather those who are truly in him, and translated into his kingdom then live by the same nature and do the same works, perfect works prepared by the Father, works of the Spirit. Jesus said 'I do nothing but what I see my Father doing'. We are called to the same standard.

The religious just can't get over the fact that Jesus did all that was necessary for a person's salvation. But His work on the cross does not atone for their sins unless that person actually believes, trusts, has confidence, that it does.
*

This is a perfect example of said gnosticism! By simply believing according to ones own understanding we save ourselves?? No. Rather by the power of God which we tap into by faith we can now be as he is (by grace through faith)! The gospel is in power, not in words. Were it true that by simply having the right beliefs one would be saved, then the gospel would indeed be in word... But it is not so!

I believe, have faith, trust, confidence in God’s word, His promises. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness before God, I am accounted as righteous before God when I believe the gospel of grace as Jesus gave it to Paul.
*
But the religious will always say I am wrong to place my belief, faith, trust and confidence in God’s words (promises). There is always something I must do in order to be saved.
*

You have made your own version of faith which works by your own standard. The standard put forth in the word is that 'whoever claims to know him ought to walk as he walked'. This very thing you call impossible, and yet you claim to have faith!

You do not believe, as Jesus proclaimed, that what is impossible with men is possible with God, and yet you claim to be a man of faith! We should be careful by which standard we measure ourselves! Many measure themselves by the standard of unbelief that is pre-eminent in the Western church and thus believe they are well off. We must measure ourselves by the standard of Christ, rather.

In the garden the sin that separated Adam and Eve from God was the sin of not believing what God said. This is still the sin that sends men and women to hell today.
*

Ironically, the very thing you are claiming is that for others, if they sin, they will go to hell, but you, if you sin, it is meaningless, and though you do not run lawfully, you will still receive the prize!!! Does God have favorites?? Are you one of his favorites, exempt???? ;)

God also says 'the soul that sins it shall die'. Do you believe him when he says that?

But you, and Episkopos, are free to believe in your power to do works if you wish but as for me, I will believe God and trust in His work on the cross.
*

We trust in God's work on the cross, that he has acquired power so that those who die with him are also now raised with him in the same power and do the works prepared in advance by the Father, as Paul says. This is what God offers.

On the other hand, men have a created a scheme whereby they claim the reward, that in eternity they shall live with him, without actually going through the cross. That's called a copout!

cop-out​

n. Slang​

1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.​

2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.​

3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.​

The gospel does not alleviate us of all responsibility, but to the opposite, makes us responsible of what we have been given. 'Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel', slightly different from 'I'm good whatever I do!' ;)

I have included scriptures that support my belief but I bet you won’t take the time to really see what they say.
*
Romans 1:16-17 -- The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
NKJV
*
1 Corinthians 1:18-19 -- Christ the Power and Wisdom of God (cf. Isaiah 29:14)
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
NKJV
*
1 Corinthians 2:5-7
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
[Spiritual Wisdom]
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
NKJV
*
2 Corinthians 13:4
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
NKJV
*
1 Peter 1:4-9
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith — the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

The very thing you deny is shown right there in the verses you quoted.
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

So as he was crucified in weakness and raised in power, we also are weak, but live with Him by the same POWER.

How can we live by the same power as Christ himself and yet sin? Does his power administer sin? Or are we not truly dead to sin? The truth says whoever abides in Him ought to walk as he walked, and the power to do this is available through the cross, if only we would believe! ;)

But you remain until today in unbelief.

 

[williemac]

This is a perfect example of said gnosticism! By simply believing according to ones own understanding we save ourselves?? No. Rather by the power of God which we tap into by faith we can now be as he is (by grace through faith)! The gospel is in power, not in words. Were it true that by simply having the right beliefs one would be saved, then the gospel would indeed be in word... But it is not so!

I will not speak for another, but want to challange some things on this reply. First, what about Rom.10:9,10? No one is saying that we save ourselves by believing. But the bible says that if we believe the gospel, we will be saved. Is this my own understanding? The bible also exhorts us to get understanding. I will agree on this second part that more than simply believeing the right things is required. However, this is where we depart. Jesus said in Luke 18:10-14, that those who humble themselves will be exalted and justified. As well, James confirmed this by stating that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Here is the truth; We are not saved by our own goodness, but rather by God's goodness. In Rom.5:15-18, the word "gift" is found at least five times, and "free gift" is used (NKJ) three of those times. It is a mistake to think that God would require anything more than our acceptance of the gift, for salvation.

Ironically, the very thing you are claiming is that for others, if they sin, they will go to hell, but you, if you sin, it is meaningless, and though you do not run lawfully, you will still receive the prize!!! Does God have favorites?? Are you one of his favorites, exempt???? ;)

God also says 'the soul that sins it shall die'. Do you believe him when he says that?

The bible also give a solution to this dilema. It is called the remission of sin. But what has it been removed from? His record. His promise is " their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more".

Jesus said in the explanation of the parable of the sower that those who hear the word and understand it bear fruit...get this part..." some 100, some 60, some 30 (%).

Under the old covenant, the blood of bulls and goats kept them in good standing with God. They sinned over and over and were covered by the blood of animals. Now, are saved by the blood of Jesus. Is His sacrifice inferior to the old ones or superior? If superior, then how is it that His blood cannot do the same for us as that of animals? In 1John 2:1, he exhorts them to not sin, but then assures them that if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus Christ the righteous. I have no problem hearing any exhortation from a brother to walk as Jesus walked and do not sin. However, when a person attaches our salvation to this, then we have a major conflict with scripture.

We trust in God's work on the cross, that he has acquired power so that those who die with him are also now raised with him in the same power and do the works prepared in advance by the Father, as Paul says. This is what God offers.

Some 100, some, 60, some 30 (Math.13:23). There is no demand for perfection.

On the other hand, men have a created a scheme whereby they claim the reward, that in eternity they shall live with him, without actually going through the cross. That's called a copout!

cop-out​

n. Slang​

1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.​

2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.​

3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.​

The gospel does not alleviate us of all responsibility, but to the opposite, makes us responsible of what we have been given. 'Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel', slightly different from 'I'm good whatever I do!' ;)

If we want to speak in absolutes, then certainly this is true. However, who are we to judge another man's servant? The judgment seat of Christ will reveal the kind of fruit we bore, and our works will be tested by fire. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, " but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" (1Cor.3:12-15). Certainly preach responsiblity, but again, attach salvation to this and you are in error.

The very thing you deny is shown right there in the verses you quoted.
4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

So as he was crucified in weakness and raised in power, we also are weak, but live with Him by the same POWER.

How can we live by the same power as Christ himself and yet sin? Does his power administer sin? Or are we not truly dead to sin? The truth says whoever abides in Him ought to walk as he walked, and the power to do this is available through the cross, if only we would believe! ;)

Believe what? According to whose understanding? Do we walk in perfection 24/7, 365 days of the year? Hardly. No matter how successful our walk is , we are not saved by that, but will ever be dependant upon the sacrifice for sin, His mercy, and His grace. Everyone can have a bad day or a bad moment. Even Paul attested to this in Rom.7. Let us remain humble in our walk, and not compare ourselves with one another, especially for the purpose of determining another's fate.

We were/are not saved by works of law. Another way of saying this is that we were/are not saved by behaving ourselves. We therefore do not keep our salvation by these things either. If so, this would also be a cop out concerning the message of the gospel. Again, read Rom.10:9,10, and tell us how this is not true. The only responsibility we have concerning salvation is to humbly accept that which we did not earn or deserve. Our responsibility to behave ourselves is not connected with salvation. If so, we would be saved by works and much of Paul's teaching would be a lie.
Blessings in Him, Howie

 

[RichardBurger]

I will not speak for another, but want to challange some things on this reply. First, what about Rom.10:9,10? No one is saying that we save ourselves by believing. But the bible says that if we believe the gospel, we will be saved. Is this my own understanding? The bible also exhorts us to get understanding. I will agree on this second part that more than simply believeing the right things is required. However, this is where we depart. Jesus said in Luke 18:10-14, that those who humble themselves will be exalted and justified. As well, James confirmed this by stating that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Here is the truth; We are not saved by our own goodness, but rather by God's goodness. In Rom.5:15-18, the word "gift" is found at least five times, and "free gift" is used (NKJ) three of those times. It is a mistake to think that God would require anything more than our acceptance of the gift, for salvation.
The bible also give a solution to this dilema. It is called the remission of sin. But what has it been removed from? His record. His promise is " their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more".

Jesus said in the explanation of the parable of the sower that those who hear the word and understand it bear fruit...get this part..." some 100, some 60, some 30 (%).

Under the old covenant, the blood of bulls and goats kept them in good standing with God. They sinned over and over and were covered by the blood of animals. Now, are saved by the blood of Jesus. Is His sacrifice inferior to the old ones or superior? If superior, then how is it that His blood cannot do the same for us as that of animals? In 1John 2:1, he exhorts them to not sin, but then assures them that if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus Christ the righteous. I have no problem hearing any exhortation from a brother to walk as Jesus walked and do not sin. However, when a person attaches our salvation to this, then we have a major conflict with scripture.
Some 100, some, 60, some 30 (Math.13:23). There is no demand for perfection.
If we want to speak in absolutes, then certainly this is true. However, who are we to judge another man's servant? The judgment seat of Christ will reveal the kind of fruit we bore, and our works will be tested by fire. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, " but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" (1Cor.3:12-15). Certainly preach responsiblity, but again, attach salvation to this and you are in error.

Believe what? According to whose understanding? Do we walk in perfection 24/7, 365 days of the year? Hardly. No matter how successful our walk is , we are not saved by that, but will ever be dependant upon the sacrifice for sin, His mercy, and His grace. Everyone can have a bad day or a bad moment. Even Paul attested to this in Rom.7. Let us remain humble in our walk, and not compare ourselves with one another, especially for the purpose of determining another's fate.

We were/are not saved by works of law. Another way of saying this is that we were/are not saved by behaving ourselves. We therefore do not keep our salvation by these things either. If so, this would also be a cop out concerning the message of the gospel. Again, read Rom.10:9,10, and tell us how this is not true. The only responsibility we have concerning salvation is to humbly accept that which we did not earn or deserve. Our responsibility to behave ourselves is not connected with salvation. If so, we would be saved by works and much of Paul's teaching would be a lie.
Blessings in Him, Howie

Excellant reply. One thing I notice, right away, is that you give Jesus' work on our behalf the credit for salvation and not man's works. This is totally missing in most all of the replies on this thread.

Such a shame that man wants to take the credit for salvation by his/her works and fail to mention that we have salvation only because of what God (Jesus) did on the cross.

 

[Prentis]

Interesting post, williemac! Here is my reply :)

I will not speak for another, but want to challange some things on this reply. First, what about Rom.10:9,10? No one is saying that we save ourselves by believing. But the bible says that if we believe the gospel, we will be saved. Is this my own understanding? The bible also exhorts us to get understanding. I will agree on this second part that more than simply believeing the right things is required. However, this is where we depart. Jesus said in Luke 18:10-14, that those who humble themselves will be exalted and justified. As well, James confirmed this by stating that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Here is the truth; We are not saved by our own goodness, but rather by God's goodness. In Rom.5:15-18, the word "gift" is found at least five times, and "free gift" is used (NKJ) three of those times. It is a mistake to think that God would require anything more than our acceptance of the gift, for salvation.

I agree wholly with this in that it is a gift, yes! It is by the Lord's mercy, and there is no work which brings us to this place... But we do enter by faith. Where I am opposed to what Richard teaches is at this point; what do we enter?

The conclusion of what he teaches is that we enter a protected state where we live just as we did before (other than the efforts we might chose to do to be better) and yet are saved, and God overlooks our sins.

But the kingdom is in power, and those who enter it live in this power which is in Christ. They do not sin anymore, as long as they abide. They were crucified with Christ, and now it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives through them. Does Christ sin? No, thus when he lives through a man, that man does not sin either. It is not of his works or of his power, but rather by the power of Christ he now does the works of the Father.

The difference? Huge! On the one hand, a gospel without power in this earth, one that can only save us for the next but is powerless NOW to conform us to Christ, on the other a gospel that is meant to bring heaven to earth, where we already are seated in heavenly places and already walking in the life of Christ. One requires a type of belief that declares itself saved, the other requires us to believe that with God all things are possible, and that God can indeed do all things. One is a cop-out to hide unbelief in the power of God NOW (faith). The other is one that believes we can indeed take the land, and God will give it into our hands if we advance by faith.

Giants in the land? Sin in our nature? Is God only able to make us overcome one and weak as for the other, or is he truly all powerful?? I let you choose.

The bible also give a solution to this dilema. It is called the remission of sin. But what has it been removed from? His record. His promise is " their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more".

2 Peter 1:9
For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Being cleansed from our old sins is not the end of the race, but only the beginning. After this we are to enter the life of Christ and walk as he walked, and also grow in his character. Otherwise we have a powerless gospel as to our current walk on earth once again.

Under the old covenant, the blood of bulls and goats kept them in good standing with God. They sinned over and over and were covered by the blood of animals. Now, are saved by the blood of Jesus. Is His sacrifice inferior to the old ones or superior? If superior, then how is it that His blood cannot do the same for us as that of animals? In 1John 2:1, he exhorts them to not sin, but then assures them that if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus Christ the righteous. I have no problem hearing any exhortation from a brother to walk as Jesus walked and do not sin. However, when a person attaches our salvation to this, then we have a major conflict with scripture.

Exactly! In the past, they had to offer sacrifices every year... But what Christ has done is far greater, not only has he made forgiveness available, but he has also made available power unto sanctification. If we walk in the Spirit we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. To confuse salvation with this is to miss the point... We do not decide who will be saved, that is for God to know, but we call men to the full stature of Christ.

Some 100, some, 60, some 30 (Math.13:23). There is no demand for perfection.

I do agree that perfection is not the requirement of salvation. But what it IS is the calling we have in Christ Jesus. We are called to be as he is. I do not judge a man for not attaining this, I would be judging myself, but this is the standard of Christ. The issue is not with saying 'I have not yet attained', that is a humble statement, the issue is with the unbelief that men cover up by saying 'God cannot (or will not) do that'. It is like saying 'We cannot take the Land' and saying 'God would not command us to do that'. It is a lie! We are not called just to salvation, but holiness, and if we will claim to know Christ, then because of our claim we should acknowledge at least what the calling is, and strive to attain it.

If we want to speak in absolutes, then certainly this is true. However, who are we to judge another man's servant? The judgment seat of Christ will reveal the kind of fruit we bore, and our works will be tested by fire. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, " but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" (1Cor.3:12-15). Certainly preach responsiblity, but again, attach salvation to this and you are in error.

I do agree, but as I said, this is not about salvation. :) This is about the truth. Think about it, if indeed we are called to be just as Christ, and God has made a way, and has made the power available, and this is what, above all other things, is most important then the man who claims this to be possible is not only living in unbelief but also teaching unbelief.

We were not called to be 'saved, yet as through the fire', but to be conformed unto Christ, and to live in glory and victory with Christ. I am not interested in judging any man here; the race is not over! ;) I am interested in exalting the truth, so that all that would believe could hear and enter in to be partakers of Christ.

Believe what? According to whose understanding? Do we walk in perfection 24/7, 365 days of the year? Hardly. No matter how successful our walk is , we are not saved by that, but will ever be dependant upon the sacrifice for sin, His mercy, and His grace. Everyone can have a bad day or a bad moment. Even Paul attested to this in Rom.7. Let us remain humble in our walk, and not compare ourselves with one another, especially for the purpose of determining another's fate.

We were/are not saved by works of law. Another way of saying this is that we were/are not saved by behaving ourselves. We therefore do not keep our salvation by these things either. If so, this would also be a cop out concerning the message of the gospel. Again, read Rom.10:9,10, and tell us how this is not true. The only responsibility we have concerning salvation is to humbly accept that which we did not earn or deserve. Our responsibility to behave ourselves is not connected with salvation. If so, we would be saved by works and much of Paul's teaching would be a lie.
Blessings in Him, Howie

See, I wholeheartedly agree with what you say... We need to remain humble. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you misunderstand the purpose of what I say (you said that we should 'not compare ourselves with one another, especially for the purpose of determining another's fate.'), I am not trying to determine anyones fate, that is not my job, but God's! But I am trying to bring men to the truth and expose the lies.

We should remain humble, and we do fail... But the problem arises when we deny the possibility of a miraculous walk and we deny that we can be fully conformed to Christ. We should be merciful to those who fall, but we should also preach the truth, that if we know him and walk in the Spirit, he gives us power to overcome ALL things.

It is dangerous to confuse those two. There is a great difference between the man who has faith but admits he is not there yet, and the man who denies that there is a power available to bring us there.

The first one has faith, but is not fully trained yet, the other one is like the spies who did not believe they could take the land, even though God commanded them to. Some will hide their unbelief under the guile of humility! ...or any other guile they can find.


Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect* shall be as his master.

G2675 katartizō
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.

Do we believe Christ when he proclaims this? Or is he powerless to make his word true?

 

[RichardBurger]

Note: The religious will read this (maybe) but will have no sympathy for the end of the man who was reaching out for God.
*
It has been my lot to find out, first hand, the results of those that teach sinless perfection in the flesh. How it causes many to turn away from Jesus.
*
A tragic story:
*
When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.
*
It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him.
*
I found that he had been talking to some Christians that were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning. He wanted to stop sinning but he said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it in your mind. He wanted to know what I believed about it.
*
I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves; to do for them what they could not do, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to trust that it has saved you.
*
I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.
*
It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of the self-righteous does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. They don't go in themselves (because they still sin too) and they prevent others that would go in from doing so, all because they want to see themselves as better, and more righteous, than others.
*
Matt 23:11-13
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
(NKJ)
*
If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.
*
But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer.
*
Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.
*
1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
NKJV ---------------- But the claim of many is that they no longer sin in the flesh.

 

[williemac]

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Against such there is no law. The first three are they which come to us from God, and the latter six are they that come out from within towards others, in the strength of the first three. Self control is often misunderstood. the catergory here is our treatment of others.

This is how Jesus walked. This is how we are to walk.

He will say.." inasmuch as you did it to the least of these, you did it to Me".
Christianity for some has merely become another self improvement organization. This isn't about behavior modifiction. This is about a new creation. There are methods that work, but ultimately cause distress in the heart. We see this in many homes, where children are not given a healthy self image. They may learn to behave themselves, but in the end they resent their parent(s) and go out into the world with disfunctions. And many fall hard.

There are those who come to Christ that have been abused, lied to, oppressed... are disfunctional, addicted, damaged, mentally unstable, weak minded...and on and on. There are often miracles that help those on the way to recovery. But there are also many religious organizations that run roughshod over people in the effort to change their behavior.

Some change almost literally overnight. Some are healed of their wounds. But what about those who struggle? Does Jesus break a bended reed? Does he snuff out a smouldering wick? He said otherwise. So I advise we walk as He walks in this regard as well. Do we kick a man who is down? Or do we lend him a loving hand? This is what assurance is for. It is there for these times. There are many doctrines and messages that serve to interfere with or take away one's assurance. Do that and we take away the some of the power to change.

This is counter intuitive. Many look at the so called grace message as a license to sin, or the permission to live an unchanged life. But the message of assurance, while it may seem like a permissive message, actually is the message that heals the heart and provides a healthy envoirnment for the Christian walk. We should not underestimate the power of a healthy self image.

There are many who do the right things for the wrong reasons and walk with little or no joy, and little or no peace.