A question about the rapture

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Johann

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I’m not here to teach. Bible study fellowship in Church is for that. Soul winning is for that. Talking to my neighbors is for that. I’m here to discuss things that I’m passionate about.

You may think I’m wrong. Others thought Paul, all 12 disciples and Christ were wrong too. The difference is we can be polite. We can bridle our tongues. If I make a mistake and my flesh gets the best of me, call me out on it. I’d rather hear it from any of you than a blasphemer that denies Christ. At least I’d know you did it out of love to protect me that I learn and change then one who does it to glorify himself because he witnessed a Christian fall.
Love this attitude brother-the willingness to be corrected as I am in need of correction.
God bless
Apostatia is mentioned only 2x

Diverse interpretations.

For that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first - Until an apostasy (ἀποστασία apostasia) shall have occurred - the great apostasy. There is scarcely any passage of the New Testament which has given occasion to greater diversity of opinion than this.

Though the reference seems to be plain, and there is scarcely any prophecy of the Bible apparently more obvious and easy in its general interpretation; yet it is proper to mention some of the opinions which have been entertained of it.

Some have referred it to a great apostasy from the Christian church, particularly on account of persecution, which would occur before the destruction of Jerusalem. The “coming of the Lord” they suppose refers to the destruction of the holy city, and according to this, the meaning is, that there would be a great apostasy before that event would take place. Of this opinion was Vitringa, who refers the “apostasy” to a great defection from the faith which took place between the time of Nero and Trajan.

Whitby also refers it to an event which was to take place before the destruction of Jerusalem, and supposes that the apostasy would consist in a return from the Christian to the Jewish faith by multitudes of professed converts. The “man of sin,” according to him, means the Jewish nation, so characterized on account of its eminent wickedness.

Hammond explains the apostasy by the defection to the Gnostics, by the arts of Simon Magus, whom he supposes to be the man of sin, and by the “day of the Lord” he also understands the destruction of Jerusalem.
Grotius takes Caius Caesar or Caligula, to be the man of sin, and by the apostasy he understands his abominable wickedness. In the beginning of his government, he says, his plans of iniquity were concealed, and the hopes of all were excited in regard to his reign; but his secret iniquity was subsequently “revealed,” and his true character understood.

Wetstein understands by the “man of sin,” that it referred to Titus and the Flavian house. He says that he does not understand it of the Roman Pontiff, who “is not one such as the demonstrative pronoun thrice repeated designates, and who neither sits in the temple of God, nor calls himself God, nor Caius, nor Simon Gioriae, nor any Jewish impostor, nor Simon Magus.”

Koppe refers it to the King mentioned in Dan_11:36. According to him, the reference is to a great apostasy of the Jews from the worship of God, and the “man of sin” is the Jewish people.

Others have supposed that the reference is to Muhammed, and that the main characteristics of the prophecy may be found in him.
Of the Papists, a part affirm that the apostasy is the falling away from Rome in the time of the Reformation, but the greater portion suppose that the allusion is to Antichrist, who, they say, will appear in the world before the great day of judgment, to combat religion and the saints. See these opinions stated at length, and examined, in Dr. Newton on the Prophecies, Dissertation xxii.

Some more recent expositors have referred it to Napoleon Bonaparte, and some (as Oldshausen) suppose that it refers to some one who has not yet appeared, in whom all the characteristics here specified will be found united.
Most Protestant commentators have referred it to the great apostasy under the papacy, and, by the “man of sin,” they suppose there is allusion to the Roman Pontiff, the Pope. It is evident that we are in better circumstances to understand the passage than those were who immediately succeeded the apostles.

Eighteen hundred years have passed (written circa 1880’s) away since the Epistle was written, and the “day of the Lord” has not yet come, and we have an opportunity of inquiring, whether in all that long tract of time any one man can be found, or any series of men have arisen, to whom the description here given is applicable. If so, it is in accordance with all the proper rules of interpreting prophecy, to make such an application.

If it is fairly applicable to the papacy, and cannot be applied in its great features to anything else, it is proper to regard it as having such an original reference. Happily, the expressions which are used by the apostle are, in themselves, not difficult of interpretation, and all that the expositor has to do is, to ascertain whether in any one great apostasy all the things here mentioned have occurred. If so, it is fair to apply the prophecy to such an event; if not so, we must wait still for its fulfillment.

The word rendered “falling away” (ἀποστασία apostasia, apostasy), is of so general a character, that it may be applied to any departure from the faith as it was received in the time of the apostles. It occurs in the New Testament only here and in Act_21:21, where it is rendered “to forsake” - “thou teachest all the Jews which are among us to forsake Moses” - apostasy from Moses - ἀποστασίαν ἀπὸ Μωῦσέως apostasian apo Mōuseōs. The word means a departing from, or a defection; see the verb used in 1Ti_4:1, “Some shall depart from the faith” - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai; compare the notes on that passage; see also Heb_3:12; Luk_8:13; Act_5:37. The reference here is evidently to some general falling away, or to some great religious apostasy that was to occur, and which would be under one head, leader, or dynasty, and which would involve many in the same departure from the faith, and in the same destruction. The use of the article here, “the apostasy” (Greek),

Erasmus remarks, “signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy.” It is evidently emphatic, showing that there had been a reference to this before, or that they understood well that there was to be such an apostasy. Paul says 2Th_2:5, that when he was with them, he had told them of these things. The writers in the New Testament often speak of such a defection under the name of Antichrist; see Rev_13:14; 1Jn_2:18, 1Jn_2:22; 1Jn_4:3; 2Jn_1:7.

See the diverse interpretations?
Shalom
Johann
 
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No Pre-TB

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Love this attitude brother-the willingness to be corrected as I am in need of correction.
God bless
Apostatia is mentioned only 2x

Diverse interpretations.

For that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first - Until an apostasy (ἀποστασία apostasia) shall have occurred - the great apostasy. There is scarcely any passage of the New Testament which has given occasion to greater diversity of opinion than this.

Though the reference seems to be plain, and there is scarcely any prophecy of the Bible apparently more obvious and easy in its general interpretation; yet it is proper to mention some of the opinions which have been entertained of it.

Some have referred it to a great apostasy from the Christian church, particularly on account of persecution, which would occur before the destruction of Jerusalem. The “coming of the Lord” they suppose refers to the destruction of the holy city, and according to this, the meaning is, that there would be a great apostasy before that event would take place. Of this opinion was Vitringa, who refers the “apostasy” to a great defection from the faith which took place between the time of Nero and Trajan.

Whitby also refers it to an event which was to take place before the destruction of Jerusalem, and supposes that the apostasy would consist in a return from the Christian to the Jewish faith by multitudes of professed converts. The “man of sin,” according to him, means the Jewish nation, so characterized on account of its eminent wickedness.

Hammond explains the apostasy by the defection to the Gnostics, by the arts of Simon Magus, whom he supposes to be the man of sin, and by the “day of the Lord” he also understands the destruction of Jerusalem.
Grotius takes Caius Caesar or Caligula, to be the man of sin, and by the apostasy he understands his abominable wickedness. In the beginning of his government, he says, his plans of iniquity were concealed, and the hopes of all were excited in regard to his reign; but his secret iniquity was subsequently “revealed,” and his true character understood.

Wetstein understands by the “man of sin,” that it referred to Titus and the Flavian house. He says that he does not understand it of the Roman Pontiff, who “is not one such as the demonstrative pronoun thrice repeated designates, and who neither sits in the temple of God, nor calls himself God, nor Caius, nor Simon Gioriae, nor any Jewish impostor, nor Simon Magus.”

Koppe refers it to the King mentioned in Dan_11:36. According to him, the reference is to a great apostasy of the Jews from the worship of God, and the “man of sin” is the Jewish people.

Others have supposed that the reference is to Muhammed, and that the main characteristics of the prophecy may be found in him.
Of the Papists, a part affirm that the apostasy is the falling away from Rome in the time of the Reformation, but the greater portion suppose that the allusion is to Antichrist, who, they say, will appear in the world before the great day of judgment, to combat religion and the saints. See these opinions stated at length, and examined, in Dr. Newton on the Prophecies, Dissertation xxii.

Some more recent expositors have referred it to Napoleon Bonaparte, and some (as Oldshausen) suppose that it refers to some one who has not yet appeared, in whom all the characteristics here specified will be found united.
Most Protestant commentators have referred it to the great apostasy under the papacy, and, by the “man of sin,” they suppose there is allusion to the Roman Pontiff, the Pope. It is evident that we are in better circumstances to understand the passage than those were who immediately succeeded the apostles.

Eighteen hundred years have passed (written circa 1880’s) away since the Epistle was written, and the “day of the Lord” has not yet come, and we have an opportunity of inquiring, whether in all that long tract of time any one man can be found, or any series of men have arisen, to whom the description here given is applicable. If so, it is in accordance with all the proper rules of interpreting prophecy, to make such an application.

If it is fairly applicable to the papacy, and cannot be applied in its great features to anything else, it is proper to regard it as having such an original reference. Happily, the expressions which are used by the apostle are, in themselves, not difficult of interpretation, and all that the expositor has to do is, to ascertain whether in any one great apostasy all the things here mentioned have occurred. If so, it is fair to apply the prophecy to such an event; if not so, we must wait still for its fulfillment.

The word rendered “falling away” (ἀποστασία apostasia, apostasy), is of so general a character, that it may be applied to any departure from the faith as it was received in the time of the apostles. It occurs in the New Testament only here and in Act_21:21, where it is rendered “to forsake” - “thou teachest all the Jews which are among us to forsake Moses” - apostasy from Moses - ἀποστασίαν ἀπὸ Μωῦσέως apostasian apo Mōuseōs. The word means a departing from, or a defection; see the verb used in 1Ti_4:1, “Some shall depart from the faith” - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai; compare the notes on that passage; see also Heb_3:12; Luk_8:13; Act_5:37. The reference here is evidently to some general falling away, or to some great religious apostasy that was to occur, and which would be under one head, leader, or dynasty, and which would involve many in the same departure from the faith, and in the same destruction. The use of the article here, “the apostasy” (Greek),

Erasmus remarks, “signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy.” It is evidently emphatic, showing that there had been a reference to this before, or that they understood well that there was to be such an apostasy. Paul says 2Th_2:5, that when he was with them, he had told them of these things. The writers in the New Testament often speak of such a defection under the name of Antichrist; see Rev_13:14; 1Jn_2:18, 1Jn_2:22; 1Jn_4:3; 2Jn_1:7.

See the diverse interpretations?
Shalom
Johann
Joseph Mede said,

Unquestionably the great APOSTASY and its concomitants do constitute the body, and are influenced by the spirit of the foretold Antichrist. Without going the length of saying that the Lord may not have allowed some individual or individuals in the past time : or may not be about to allow some such in the future to stand more prominently forward as head of the vast irreligious community ; without, I say, touching at all upon this point, which is disputed, certainly the body of the Apostasy is influenced by the Spirit of Antichrist ; for it disannuls the Gospel, it virtually " denies the Father and the Son," 1 John ii. 22, and is just the very evil, the coming of which was looked forward to with such fearful anxiety by the early Christian Church.

He also suggests that the apostacy is in those where "we will know them by their fruits". As the Bible says in 1 John 2:19,

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 
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ScottA

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Verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2 ( Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...) describes a circumstance that can and does occur at any time in history.

The man of sin being revealed is a future event unfulfilled

...Sooo...you believe that Adam and every man since (except Jesus) is not a "man of sin is revealed." Great!

Such delusion. :(
 

Truth7t7

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...Sooo...you believe that Adam and every man since (except Jesus) is not a "man of sin is revealed." Great!

Such delusion. :(
Everybody except Jesus represents the man if sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Sure"

Can you tell the forum your story how Jesus isn't going to return literally and visibly in the heavens in the future as seen below, that's my favorite one

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Luke 21:27-28KJV
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Ronald D Milam

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You follow false prophets, because Jesus made it very plain when His coming to gather His saints is, per the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which is immediately AFTER... the tribulation.

But YOU instead follow men's doctrine mocking what Jesus showed when, by YOUR FALSE adding to the 2 Thess.2 Scripture by vainly trying to push the false pre-tribulation rapture theory, when that idea is NOT WRITTEN THERE AT ALL!

Thus you LIE against The Word of God, and you will be held accountable for it.
You will soon see, and I am sure the Lord will not be happy with you, at all. You spared untruths and have the audacity to call other people liars. You are silly, and not worth chatting unto. On IGNORE.
 

Ronald D Milam

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LOL. You have destroyed nothing but your reputation, if you even had one to begin with. Your arguments couldn't be any weaker if you tried.
SMH..........unlearned people who do not understand scriptures want to teach preachers of nigh 40 years. This world has gone off the deep end.
 

covenantee

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Do they understand “Ice T” is Dr. Tommy Ice?
Btw, I believe he is a man that loves the Lord dearly.
They do if they've been following this thread.
I've no doubt that he does; and that those who disagree with him re. "falling away", which includes virtually the entire historic true Christian Church, do also.
 
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covenantee

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The Light

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Until 1859, did mean:

Apostasy.

Falling away.

Not flying away.
It is falling away in my opinion. This doesn't change the fact that there will be a flying away before the seals are opened. And there will also be another flying away before wrath. This will happen before the generation that sees the fig tree begin to sprout leaves passes away.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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SMH..........unlearned people who do not understand scriptures want to teach preachers of nigh 40 years. This world has gone off the deep end.
If you were wrong to begin with almost 40 years ago and you never changed your views then it just means you've been wrong for almost 40 years. There are "preachers of nigh 40 years" who disagree with you, so, apparently, the number of years you preach doesn't determine how much discernment you have.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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"falling away"?

Could mean, Very Simply = 'Departure', as in:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.
The same Greek word, apostasia, translated as "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is used in one other verse:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

It's used here to refer to Jews departing or falling away from belief in what Moses taught. I don't see any basis for thinking it was used in any other sense (a falling away from the faith) in 2 Thess 2:3.
 

ewq1938

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"falling away"?

Could mean, Very Simply = 'Departure', as in:


No, it can't mean a physical rapture. It specifically means a moral departure, apostasy. We can't just change what words have meant for hundreds/thousands of years.
 

No Pre-TB

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This doesn't change the fact that there will be a flying away before the seals are opened.
It it was Biblical, we could call it a fact.

Example: When verses tell us when the DotL begins and they parallel happening after the 6th seal, not before the 1st.

Or how Elders were in the heavenly scene before Christ; or how do Elders hold their own prayers?; or how they sing with angels that arnt redeemed; or how the 7 spirits of God are transferred to Christ from the old covenant to the new; or how Christ tells us those who over come will inherit all things in earlier Ch.’s yet the crystal sea is absent of people before the seals are opened...where are the overcomers if they were resurrected; or how none of the seals are called wrath.

We are not appointed to wrath. Wrath is not tribulation. We are appointed to tribulation whether small or great per the Bible.