It's Getting Real Folks

[face2face]

Ookaaay. So you don't believe in Satan? The Devil?

When you say, "believe in", of course the idea of a false accuser (devil) and adversary (satan) are Bible words used in many varying context, but none of them translate to what you are describing. The type of detail in your posts are not found anywhere in the text. Even the meaning of these words is a study all of its own - their usage in so many scattered passages is cause for concern. I get that many force and twist a couple of prophecy passages (Isaiah & Ezekiel) but its the lack of any mention in the Torah which rings alarm for any Bible student.

If only you had an origin story in the foundation chapters but nothing!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite

‘No passage in the Old Testament has to do directly with Satan (or the Devil) in the sense of later literature and Christian theology (the possible exception is 1 Chron. 21:1, but it seems unlikely). In this sense there is no Satan in the Old Testament. On the other hand, it is easy to see how these passages were utilized in the development of the concept of Satan.

Tate, ‘Satan in the Old Testament’, Review & Expositor (89.4.462), 1992.

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite

‘The Old Testament itself offers none of the material through which Satan emerges as the popular figure of tempter and devil. The propensity of Christians to reach such a role in Genesis 3 is to project backward into the text from later texts.’

Brueggemann, ‘Reverberations of Faith: A Theological Handbook of Old Testament Theme’, p. 188
(2002).

It demands a high degree of intellectual honesty to approach this subject with an open mind. If you draw to the conclusion that the OT is silent on this fabricated being then it forces you to consider the true meaning of these words in the NT - a very rewarding study indeed.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite

It is acknowledged that ‘satan’ only appears in three or four texts in the entire Old Testament, and none them depict the supernatural evil being of later Jewish and Christian theology.

‘Satan makes only three appearances in the Old Testament and in none of these is he defined as a cosmic adversary who defies divine sovereignty.’

Lincoln, ‘Liberation From the Powers: Supernatural Spirits or Societal Structures?’, in Carroll et al. (eds.), ‘The Bible in Human Society: Essays in Honor of John Rogerson’, Journal for the Study of the Old Testament Supplement Series, volume 200, p. 350 (1995)

 

[quietthinker]

Where are you getting all this from Brakelite? I've always taken you to be a real thinker - highest respect! Have you tried to prove your evil being from OT? Try and do that first before moving in the NT. It's a hopeless case to try and find anything on this fabricated story - certainly no origin story that I have found. Have a read over your post and please tell me, where on earth do you get this from the Bible?

F2F

You thought I was a real thinker as well F2F but when we think in parameters you are unfamiliar with you draw the conclusion that we don't think.

Brakelite has put out the obvious re Satan in his post here and it flummoxes you.

From the questions you've asked me and the statements you've made previously, I suspect your view re Satan is that he/ it is an idea and not a real entity? If that is the case, perhaps you could confirm it or deny it?

 

[face2face]

You thought I was a real thinker as well F2F but when we think in parameters you are unfamiliar with you draw the conclusion that we don't think.

Brakelite has put out the obvious re Satan in his post here and it flummoxes you.

From the questions you've asked me and the statements you've made previously, I suspect your view re Satan is that he/ it is an idea and not a real entity? If that is the case, perhaps you could confirm it or deny it?

Not an idea. Every text need’s critical thinking, as to who is in the mind of the writer when using their words. Basically, a Christian takes a few words in the Hebrew and Greek and force's notions upon them without thinking if this is what the Scripture is teaching. I think it’s a great subject to show how poor people read and interpret the Bible. I've known Brakelite for a very long time and have a lot of respect for their honesty and integrity. Your beliefs are well outside of Scripture that I don’t have the same respect for you -don’t be offended, the feeling is probably mutual ;)

If you want to try and prove what he wrote, if you think it's "obvious", by all means try.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

@Brakelite

It is acknowledged that ‘satan’ only appears in three or four texts in the entire Old Testament, and none them depict the supernatural evil being of later Jewish and Christian theology.

‘Satan makes only three appearances in the Old Testament and in none of these is he defined as a cosmic adversary who defies divine sovereignty.’

Lincoln, ‘Liberation From the Powers: Supernatural Spirits or Societal Structures?’, in Carroll et al. (eds.), ‘The Bible in Human Society: Essays in Honor of John Rogerson’, Journal for the Study of the Old Testament Supplement Series, volume 200, p. 350 (1995)

It is correct that Satan appears only a few time in the OT. The Hebrews never acknowledged him as a rival to God rather they saw him as we would a prosector. They attributed all good and bad to God.

Jesus changed that. He positively identified him as the culprit who is responsible for evil ie, sin and death.

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker it's possibly you have not tested this subject to the degree I have.

‘Satan makes only three appearances in the Old Testament and in none of these is he defined as a cosmic adversary who defies divine sovereignty.’

If you can do this from the OT - you would prove a lot of theologians (and me) wrong.

I don't think you can... and dont beleive you will even try.

F2F

 

[face2face]

It is correct that Satan appears only a few time in the OT.

That is the start...the door is slightly ajar!

The Hebrews never acknowledged him as a rival to God rather they saw him as we would a prosector. They attributed all good and bad to God.

Jesus changed that. He positively identified him as the culprit who is responsible for evil ie, sin and death.

I'll let you think about the complications the above does to the OT record.

Take your time...I'm around for a while

F2F

 

[face2face]

It is correct that Satan appears only a few time in the OT. The Hebrews never acknowledged him as a rival to God rather they saw him as we would a prosector. They attributed all good and bad to God.

And they were right to do so, even today nothing has changed.

 

[quietthinker]

Not an idea. Every text need’s critical thinking, as to who is in the mind of the writer when using their words. Basically, a Christian takes a few words in the Hebrew and Greek and force's notions upon them without thinking if this is what the Scripture is teaching. I think it’s a great subject to show how poor people read and interpret the Bible. I've known Brakelite for a very long time and have a lot of respect for their honesty and integrity. Your beliefs are well outside of Scripture that I don’t have the same respect for you -don’t be offended, the feeling is probably mutual ;)

If you want to try and prove what he wrote, if you think it's "obvious", by all means try.

F2F

Satan has hidden himself. Right from the outset he disguised himself as other than who he is, either a Serpent or God or those who have died claiming communication with the living. He is evidenced in the perpetual false accusations as he is in the evil perpetrated globally. Jesus said of those who engage these things 'you are of your Father the Devil'.

Proof however, I suspect is not what you're interested in and even if proof were supplied you wouldn't take it to heart.
As I have said, Jesus identified him as the entity and the liar, thief and murderer that he is.

 

[quietthinker]

And they were right to do so, even today nothing has changed.

they were in error.

 

[quietthinker]

That is the start...the door is slightly ajar!


I'll let you think about the complications the above does to the OT record.

Take your time...I'm around for a while

F2F

Why are you so patronising F2F?

 

[quietthinker]

When you say, "believe in", of course the idea of a false accuser (devil) and adversary (satan) are Bible words used in many varying context, but none of them translate to what you are describing. The type of detail in your posts are not found anywhere in the text. Even the meaning of these words is a study all of its own - their usage in so many scattered passages is cause for concern. I get that many force and twist a couple of prophecy passages (Isaiah & Ezekiel) but its the lack of any mention in the Torah which rings alarm for any Bible student.

If only you had an origin story in the foundation chapters but nothing!

F2F

I don't suppose you consider Jesus an authority on the matter either because you don't take into consideration that he clarified that issue.

 

[face2face]

Satan has hidden himself.

No, either God has hidden him or he doesnt exist - I know the truth

Right from the outset he disguised himself as other than who he is, either a Serpent or God or those who have died claiming communication with the living.

Show me a record that teaches in the Bible!

He is evidenced in the perpetual false accusations as he is in the evil perpetrated globally. Jesus said of those who engage these things 'you are of your Father the Devil'.

Devil simply means false accuser! What was the false accuser from the beginning? An animal which the Lord God made. You know this is truth!

Proof however, I suspect is not what you're interested in and even if proof were supplied you wouldn't take it to heart.
As I have said, Jesus identified him as the entity and the liar, thief and murderer that he is.

I've never witnessed evidence on this subject...that is why I questioned the noise in Brakelite's post as I know none of it can be substantiated from the Word of God.

F2F

 

[face2face]

they were in error.

No, the record is clear - you need to either lay this at God's feet and say you willing decieved your people if this being was running havoc with Israel, which we both know is nonsense.
F2F

 

[face2face]

I don't suppose you consider Jesus an authority on the matter either because you don't take into consideration that he clarified that issue.

Absolutely, I do. Like I said I am happy for you to put whatever text up you want - but before you do all I ask is you take care in reading that passage carefully AND remember the OT is 100% silent on this subject so you need to find an origin story from the Gospel accounts.
Good luck!
F2F

 

[face2face]

Why are you so patronising F2F?

What did you find patronising quiet?
Could it be my confidence in the subject?
Or have you misinterpreted something I said?
I will be here for the next 4 hours then its beauty sleep!
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

No, the record is clear - you need to either lay this at God's feet and say you willing decieved your people if this being was running havoc with Israel, which we both know is nonsense.
F2F

In my estimation your error is believing that everything the Prophets understood about God was accurate/ correct.

Jesus made it clear that not everything they had heard said and I would add, assumed, was correct.

If you want a definitive reference point to determine right from wrong, truth from error Jesus is The Man. He says in Luke 21:33 'Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.'

Jesus is the North Star, the immovable rock, the faithful and true witness.

It was Jesus of whom the voice from the cloud said 'listen to him' .....and that was in the company of Moses and Elijah....yup, representatives of the Law and the Prophets.

 

[quietthinker]

What did you find patronising quiet?
Could it be my confidence in the subject?
Or have you misinterpreted something I said?
I will be here for the next 4 hours then its beauty sleep!
F2F

you clearly don't hear yourself!