Apokatastasis in the Bible

[St. SteVen]

Hey everyone.
A big thanks to @Episkopos for awesome participation in this topic.
For anyone who has not seen this link below, check it out.
Shameless promotion for ANOTHER awesome effort.

New Album is out.

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Episkopos]

Hey everyone.
A big thanks to @Episkopos for awesome participation in this topic.
For anyone who has not seen this link below, check it out.
Shameless promotion for ANOTHER awesome effort.

New Album is out.

www.christianityboard.com

Thanks brother! Please like and subscribe and leave comments on the youtube channel. (More shameless promotion)

Did I just say that?

Great thread...and constructive communication.

 

[St. SteVen]

Great thread...and constructive communication.

Hopefully we set the bar higher for others to model.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hopefully we set the bar higher for others to model.

Some truth would help

when people are being led astray. It does not matter how good of a model one might be

 

[St. SteVen]

Some truth would help

when people are being led astray. It does not matter how good of a model one might be

Do you need a hug? We love you.

@Episkopos @Lambano @Laurina

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you need a hug? We love you.

@Episkopos @Lambano @Laurina

I love you too.

Which is why I pray you both come to the light..

 

[St. SteVen]

I love you too.

That's great to hear. Thanks.

Which is why I pray you both come to the light..

What is the specific issue you are having with us?

We were discussing both sides of the topic.
Surprised that you disagree with both sides. ????
Is there a third position to discuss?

Sorry if I am asking you to repeat yourself.
Your previous posts seemed off-putting.
So, I didn't come away with anything of value.

 

[St. SteVen]

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Note: This scripture is actually about the first coming of Christ. But makes an interesting statement about enduring the day of his coming.

 

[Lambano]

Do you need a hug? We love you.

@Episkopos @Lambano @Laurina

Shhh! I think my wife suspects something!

 

[St. SteVen]

Shhh! I think my wife suspects something!

LOL
Reminds me of another bumper sticker.
(had to stop reading them. My insurance rates were going through the roof!) - LOL

You can't hug anyone with nuclear arms!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's great to hear. Thanks.

What is the specific issue you are having with us?

We were discussing both sides of the topic.
Surprised that you disagree with both sides. ????
Is there a third position to discuss?

Sorry if I am asking you to repeat yourself.
Your previous posts seemed off-putting.
So, I didn't come away with anything of value.

Well epi has a false gospel. He thinks he will make himself righteous and earn heaven. so that is my beef with him.

My worry with you is you keep thinking people believe it is God who torments people forever and ever. when in reality God gave them and out and they passed

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Note: This scripture is actually about the first coming of Christ. But makes an interesting statement about enduring the day of his coming.

God will restore all thing to the way they were in the garden.

One of the things he does to restore all things is remove evil from the earth where they can not harm it anymore. and put them in outer darkness with Satan and his fallen angels..

 

[Lambano]

God will restore all thing to the way they were in the garden.

My sister-in-law was right. We're going to be naked.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well epi has a false gospel. He thinks he will make himself righteous and earn heaven. so that is my beef with him.

My worry with you is you keep thinking people believe it is God who torments people forever and ever. when in reality God gave them and out and they passed

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response.
I can't speak for @Episkopos but I will respond to your beef on my position, if that helps. ???

Allow me to point out what appears to be an obvious contradiction in your statement.
If "God gave them an out", doesn't that prove it was God's torment all along?
How could he give them an "out" if it wasn't his to give in the first place?

The other two problems are that you can't claim that everyone
was given an out, and that they passed.

This assumes that everyone has had such an opportunity, which they haven't.
What becomes of those who haven't? Are they given a pass?
This is where your position falls apart from my perspective,

Furthermore, it is built on this idea that eternity in hell is not of God's doing.
That somehow sinful humankind creates hell and puts themselves there as a matter of their own will.
Clearly, if there is a hell, it is of God's doing. He created it and sends the vast majority there.
(assuming there is a forever burning hell, which is not my claim)

 

[Wrangler]

People of every nation, tribe and tongue. That is a general statement...not meant to include every individual.

Agreed.

Doesn't this assume that every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity?
From my perspective, that's where the argument falls apart.

How so?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response.
I can't speak for @Episkopos but I will respond to your beef on my position, if that helps. ???

Allow me to point out what appears to be an obvious contradiction in your statement.
If "God gave them an out", doesn't that prove it was God's torment all along?

How could it be Gods torment?

In order for it to be Gods. then he would have had to forced them into it. and not given them an out..

The penalty of sin is death

he paid that penalty. the people who reject his gift will suffer eternal death. That's not on God

How could he give them an "out" if it wasn't his to give in the first place?

It was not made for them,, It was made for satan and his angels.. When man sinned, they chose to follow satan and his angels.. and follow them they will if they reject Christ.

The other two problems are that you can't claim that everyone
was given an out, and that they passed.

Yes I can. The word says he died for the world.. That is everyone.. (john 3)

It al;so says no one has an excuse.. that is everyone (romans 1)

This assumes that everyone has had such an opportunity, which they haven't.
What becomes of those who haven't? Are they given a pass?
This is where your position falls apart from my perspective,

Thats because you need to look at it from a spiritual perspective. God knows peoples heart. if they would repent if he sent them the word. He will send it.. We have many such examples of missionaries going to places unreached and being told they were told God would send them because the people asked God to.

Furthermore, it is built on this idea that eternity in hell is not of God's doing.
That somehow sinful humankind creates hell and puts themselves there as a matter of their own will.
Clearly, if there is a hell, it is of God's doing. He created it and sends the vast majority there.
(assuming there is a forever burning hell, which is not my claim)

Again, Your argument falls apart when God died for them

You can;t blame God for people being in hell for eternity when they sent themselves their by refusing to recieve the offer of forgiveness.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Doesn't this assume that every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity?
From my perspective, that's where the argument falls apart.

How so?

I'm claiming that not every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity.
To claim otherwise seems preposterous.

 

[St. SteVen]

How could it be Gods torment?

Seriously?
Who created hell?

As I understand it, the Christian hell is the most sadistic torture imaginable.
That God would create a place where humans with full conscious awareness are
in a fire that tortures but does not kill them. And that they remain there for all
eternity with no hope of escape. Cruel and sadistic on a magnitude that
no earthly tyrant has ever come close to.

And this is punishment for not receiving a free gift?
The offer sounds more like extortion to me. Believe or burn.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm claiming that not every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity.
To claim otherwise seems preposterous.

Oy vey! Anther proto-thought post.

You said the argument breaks down but cannot articulate the thesis of HOW the argument breaks down. All you do is resort to denying a claim that no one ever made - as @Episkopos pointed out. Let's start from the beginning and see if a cogent thought can emerge from the ether.

1. The Bible is highly figurative.
2. Jesus spoke genericly or figuratively about the Great Commision, in collective terms. Every "nation" does not equate to every individual.

To that, you say ...

 

[St. SteVen]

The penalty of sin is death

he paid that penalty. the people who reject his gift will suffer eternal death.

I don't know of anyone who has rejected what Christ did when he paid the death penalty for our sin.
What they have rejected is the institutional church that demands payment for the "free gift" of eternal life.

In fact, I don't even think it is possible to reject what Christ has done for us. How is that done exactly?
The work of the Atonement was a complete work on our behalf. There is no way to undo that.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is the "free gift" of salvation really free? - Honestly?

This is the evangelical bait-and-switch. Where's the ethics in that? Should people be tricked into the kingdom? Do we lead someone to Christ and then cut them loose? Nope. They need to be discipled, right? So we pile on the expectations. - Daily Bible reading and prayer. - Regular church...

www.christianityboard.com