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Arthur81
Well-Known Member
I understand "to be more zealous to confirm your call and election" as a warning against what I've heard termed "easy believism", the idea that because you went up front in a revival and professed faith in Christ years ago, but now live like the the world, that you are a true child of God. Eph. 2:10 where we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God ordained for us, shows we must have evidence of being a child of God, born from above. We should see the fruit of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22,23 in our life and the graces, and if they are lacking, we need to do some serious soul searching in comparison to scripture. As in James 2:24, am I justified in thinking I'm truly a child of God.
Robertson on 2 Peter 1:10 reads -
Wherefore (διο). Because of the exhortation and argument in verses 5-9.
Give the more diligence (μαλλον σπουδασατε). "Become diligent (first aorist ingressive active imperative of σπουδαζω as in 2Tim 2:15; 2Pet 1:15) the more" (μαλλον, not less).
To make (ποιεισθα). Present middle infinitive of ποιεω, to make for yourselves.
Calling and election (κλησιν κα εκλογην). Both words (κλησιν, the invitation, εκλογην, actual acceptance). See for εκλογη 1Thess 1:4; Rom 9:11.
If ye do (ποιουντες). Present active circumstantial (conditional) participle of ποιεω, "doing."
Ye shall never stumble (ου μη πταισητε ποτε). Strong double negative (ου μη ποτε) with first aorist active subjunctive of πταιω, old verb to stumble, to fall as in Jas 2:10; Jas 3:2.
The Thread's topic is "Saved, without water".
See, water is just water. Nothing more, nothing less.
However, there are "water cults" that teach that you must be water baptized to be saved.
This is the teaching that the Catholic Church, created, using their false bible, that states in John 3.....
"born again BY water".
So, that is a demonic lie, as water does not cause spiritual birth., so, "Born again BY water" is a satanic, Holy Spirit denying, lie.
Many are deceived by this "cult of mary" lie.
Now, regarding water baptism..
It follows our Salvation, it does not cause it, it does not create it, as the "water cults" teach.
We should be water baptized.... AFTER we are born again..... absolutely.
Johann
Well-Known Member
In absolute agreement here-
This here from Utley-
NASB "to make certain"
NKJV "to make. . .sure"
NRSV "to confirm"
TEV "to make. . .permanent"
NJB "never allow. . .to waver"
This term is used in three ways.
certain by being well established (cf. Rom. 4:16)
dependable (cf. 2 Pet. 2:19 and Heb. 3:14; 6:19)
verifiable (used in Koine Greek papyri from Egypt for legal guarantees such as validating a will)
Christians can have assurance (cf. Phil. 2:12-13; 1 John 5:13).
Special Topic: Assurance
"His calling"
"His" is not in the Greek text, but is implied from 2 Pet. 1:3. Believers' ultimate hope is in the character of the Father, the work of the Son, and the wooing of the Spirit. However, these are confirmed in individual believers by their lives of faith, godliness, etc. (cf. 2 Pet. 1:5-7; Phil. 2:12-13).
God deals with humanity in a covenant relationship. He sets the agenda, He initiates the encounter, He draws us to Himself, but we must initially and continually respond in repentance, faith, service, obedience, and perseverance.
The gospel is a person to be welcomed, a truth to be believed, and a life to be lived! If any one is left out, mature, biblical salvation is impossible.
Special Topic: Called
"and choosing you"
The NOUN eklogē is always used of God's choice.
Jacob/Israel – Rom. 9:11
the faithful remnant – Rom. 11:5,28
NT believers – Rom. 11:7
the church – 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Pet. 1:10
Special Topic: Election/Predestination and the Need for a Theological Balance
Special Topic: Election
"as long as you practice these things" The "these things" refer to 2 Pet. 1:3-7. Eternal life has observable characteristics.
The grammar (i.e., a DOUBLE NEGATIVE) and the term pote (i.e., "at any time" or "ever") give great assurance to struggling believers in the midst of suffering and persecution (i.e., 1 Peter) and false teachings (i.e., 2 Peter).
In Word Pictures in the New Testament, vol. 6, p. 153, A. T. Robertson identifies the VERB "practice" (i.e., pioeō) as a PRESENT ACTIVE CIRCUMSTANTIAL [conditional] PARTICIPLE, like 2 Pet. 1:8. The NASB, NKJV, NRSV, and TEV include the English conditional "if" in their translations (like 2 Pet. 1:8).
As you may notice-Utley even used R.T. Robertson here-
"you will never stumble"
This is a grammatical structure (DOUBLE NEGATIVES and the SUBJUNCTIVE MOOD), which is the strongest way to negate a statement. This same truth is expressed in Jude 24.
However, like Hebrews (cf. Heb. 2:1-4; 3:7-4:11; 5:11-6:12; 10:9-39; 12:14-29), 2 Peter has some shocking warnings (cf. 2 Pet. 2:1,20-22; 3:17). Salvation is secure (cf. 1 Pet. 1:4-6), but must be maintained.
This is a death blow to "easy-believism"-as you correctly stated.
God bless
Johann.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
So what then would hinder one from being baptized . IF they DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST .
Cause without FAITH IN CHRIST , ALL IS VAIN . And that be a fact . a fact i know MY FRIEND already KNOWS WELL .
Johann
Well-Known Member
Spotted brother-and in full agreement with you.
Johann.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Point to CHRIST JESUS till the last breath ebbs out our lungs . YES indeed my friend .
Let GOD be true but every man a liar .
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm not a cult and I quoted you James, which you just laughed off as "typical of my kind."
That is not antithetical to Christians living righteous lives. Unless they do, they are not Saved. I have *never* said that Christians must do good to get Saved. I have said that they must choose Christ to get Saved because Christ is the exclusive source of Salvation. If you don't choose Christ, you don't choose Salvation. And if you choose Christ as Savior, then you are also choosing to repent of your own ways and live by his righteousness. The Apostle John makes it very, very clear:
1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
See 1 John above. What that says is diametrically opposed to your notion, which is a form of Antinomianism. To choose Christ is by default to choose his righteousness. Salvation is choosing him and his righteousness, and the proper way of repenting of our own sin and independence from God.
Clearly, you are misapplying this in our conversation. Christ is the end of the Law of Moses, which was a system that operated *before* Christ died for our sins. That system has now been displaced by Christ, who always was the end goal of the Law. The purpose of the Law was to operate in faith until the object of our faith, Christ, had come.
The Law was always about faith and righteousness acting as one. Now that Christ has come, it is still about faith and righteousness acting together. That's what the Apostle John said in 1 John 2. To say otherwise is Antinomianism--a heresy.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Right. To deny the necessity of Water Baptism in our Salvation can be understood in two ways. 1st, those who argue for the necessity of Water Baptism in our Salvation argue that it is the typical way of expressing public confidence we're exercising in Christ as our Savior and righteousness.
2nd, there are those who argue against the necessity of Water Baptism in our Salvation. In this they should not be arguing either against Water Baptism as a practice nor against the righteousness of Christ, because in choosing for Christ we are choosing for him as our righteousness, as well.
So we would just argue on this 2nd point that Water Baptism is purely an external ritual depicting our public testimony to Christ. We can obviously make testimony to our faith in Christ in other ways. What is necessary is that we choose Christ and testify to him that he has become our righteousness.
Every person who is born again, is become "the righteousness of God, in Christ" as that is HOW we are become "a new creation, in Christ".
This is Salvation, and its not that we agree to have it....Its that we trust in Christ, repenting of our unbelief and God gives us "the Gift of Righteousness".
Its a cult teaching that teaches that dead faith is dead salvation.
Its the same cult that reads..James..."i will show YOU my faith by my works" and teaches that this is James showing God His faith, and that to do this is to stay saved.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Such "hair-splitting" may be confusing for us. How can you say, "It's not that we agree to have it?," without creating tremendous confusion over words? I know what you mean, but this kind of language is not normal and screams out your "theological concerns" about Justification.
We both agree that we choose to accept Christ's offer of Salvation and become Born Again, I should hope? And after we are Saved we choose daily to walk in the Salvation we have already been given, which is the New Nature Christ has bestowed on us. Why not leave it at that?
Who taught you that you are to agree with the Gospel, is the same as believing and receiving it by faith?
That is not the same thing, Randy.
God does not save those who agree that its true..., as that is a head knowledge of the Historical fact that Jesus died on the Cross.
Unbelievers, who live in the "bible belt' southern USA, all know more about that than most, but that is KNOWING.
That's not faith in Christ.
God saves those who's "faith comes by hearing", and the hearing is to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and BELIEVE IT.
The other thing that is confused is your noticable non use of Paul's NT vocabulary when you discuss anything related to redemption through Christ.
Did you ever read this before ?
Romans 3:21-28
Im still waiting for the next time you tell us that its only if we agree to the Christian life principles first.. that God will save us.
Why not just say.....that If you give God your faith in Christ, He gives you the gift of Salvation.
No strings attached.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I think you're indulging in some serious "hair-splitting!" You're battling a semantical ghost, in my opinion, assuming that "agreement" doesn't mean "believing," which is a choice, or an agreement. To believe in something is to agree that it is true and to accept the conditions involved. It is, in Christianity, a covenant agreement. If you think the New Covenant is not a "covenant" you're engaging in word confusion.
The reason why I state that there is an "agreement" with Salvation is because of the issues you raised about Justification and Righteousness. When we embrace Christ we are agreeing with who he actually is--not some kind of artificial construct of who he is. For some he is a kindly grandfather in the sky who serves us like Santa Claus.
So I'm arguing that righteousness is built into our agreement to accept Christ. Christ = Christian Righteousness.
When we accept Christ we are accepting a proposition that he is the source of Salvation. We do not choose righteousness apart from him.
When we accept him we get his New Nature and with it we get his Righteousness. Once we have accepted him and have received his New Nature we can daily choose to defer to that righteousness and reject our own autonomous carnality.
There is an independent notion of righteousness, which is truly righteousness, but cannot justify, since it is separate from the New Nature that comes in accepting Christ. But when we accept that Christ's righteousness is better than our own autonomous righteousness we are by default repenting of our own autonomy and embracing dependence upon him, or the New Nature in Christ. I'm trying to be as clear as I can about it.
Believing is the only requirement that God requires, so that< He will = .. "Grace through Faith".
There is nothing else required, as the Believer has done this.. = "Faith comes by hearing".
They have heard the Gospel.
They are convicted by the Holy Spirit, which is..."If i be lift up i will DRAW all people to me")
and they repent of unbelief (all unbelievers are in unbelief, until they believe) which is to give God the repentance that He accepts, as this is FAITH
Faith is repenting from unbelief.. Turning from unbelief to Faith., and God accepts this faith ONCE, and provides the rest.
Philippians 1:6
The Gospel is the "preaching of the Cross'... which is the message of the Cross.
Faith in this "good news" is believing faith .. regarding the fact that Jesus is the "only Way to the Father, and no person comes to the Father, but by Me". John 14:6
That is the CROSS. That is the "but by me".......that is "The WAY" = "Christ Crucified", which is the Preaching of the Cross which is this..
""""""For the preaching of The Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.""""""
Notice carefully that its not the Cross that is the POWER of God......but its the "PREACHING OF THE Cross"...
I think you mean this.. by "accept"...
Jesus said...>"all that believe in me.... i give unto them eternal life, and they shall never go to Hell, (perish)..
Godslittleservant
Active Member
Boy sir you went to a lot of effort to discredit a simple command from God and distort his word to try to make it fit your teaching but no matter how hard you try to reword what God has said his word will stand and yours will be judged by his not the other way around. If you but read Romans 6 Paul and Apostle Of Christ the spokesman from Christ has explained just how that the Baptism in the name of Christ does in fact remit sin and gives the new life just as Peter said who also was a spokesman of Christ and each teach the same thing on the subject of baptism.
Now please do yourself a favor and take what you said and compare it with what God through his spokesmen had to say on the matter. You must teach the oracles of God because your judgement will be far worse if you are judged by God to be teaching falsehood in his name.
Johann
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Water does save us.
Jesus' living water.
Liquid water in emersion baptism is a ritual that epitomizes being reborn, again. Since our first physical birth was from out of the water of our mother's womb.
And secondly, that rebirth through the living water of Christ washes our former self born unconscious, dead, to the things of God, clean of sins.
When we resurrect from that baptismal water it is a rebirth. We move from the state of the dead unto living renewed as a new creation in the light of Christ. With Jesus spirit within us so that our former unconscious state is now conscious of the things, thoughts, wisdom, guidance, of God.
Jesus' living water.
Liquid water in emersion baptism is a ritual that epitomizes being reborn, again. Since our first physical birth was from out of the water of our mother's womb.
And secondly, that rebirth through the living water of Christ washes our former self born unconscious, dead, to the things of God, clean of sins.
When we resurrect from that baptismal water it is a rebirth. We move from the state of the dead unto living renewed as a new creation in the light of Christ. With Jesus spirit within us so that our former unconscious state is now conscious of the things, thoughts, wisdom, guidance, of God.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
You are talking about Grace, without the means to have Peace with it?
You are talking about Justification, without the means to be inspired by it?
I suggest you wait on the Holy Spirit, until you have a sense of the gift we are promised?
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