How to get out of : Romans 7

[CadyandZoe]

You made that up.

Paul never confessed Himself to be currently a sinner, sinning. He stated that he was "chief of sinners".

I quoted his letter to Timothy. This is why it is important to examine the passage together, asking each other, "Isn't this what Paul said?" And didn't you hear Paul say that he was the foremost sinner? -- present tense.

Let me show you again, as you're not paying attention yet.

I read your argument, which is flawed in the following ways: 1) Paul isn't talking about his behavior, i.e. sinning; Paul is talking about his nature, i.e. sinner. 2) Paul doesn't mention murder in 1 Timothy.

 

[Behold]

I quoted his letter to Timothy.

Believe me when i tell you that quoting verses, to try to prove error, is something that you should avoid.

You can't seem to understand that Paul was "made free from sin".... as He wrote that Verse.

You have misunderstood "..if you walk in the Light, in the Spirit, you will not commit (sin) works of the flesh".

Paul wrote the verse., and you have concluded that this means He is still sinning.

He wasn't, and if you are, then dont lay the blame on Paul., as his doctrine is designed to free you from bondage, not keep you in it, @CadyandZoe

I read your argument, which is flawed in the following ways: 1) Paul isn't talking about his behavior, i.e. sinning; Paul is talking about his nature, i.e. sinner.

Paul's nature is "new Creation in Christ" " born again", = Its the "Divine Nature" as described by Peter.

"""""""Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the DIVINE NATIURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.""""""

Paul's old nature, He told you, is " crucified with Christ".

Now.....Here is Paul explaining to YOU< ... regarding His new nature.

"""I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;.... YET...NOT...I = , but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."""


So, the reason that Paul says..."Yet not I"... is because his "old man of sin".. the "I"...is = '""""crucified with Christ.""""

He told YOU< to "reckon it dead", but you are choosing to teach that you still let it live, as "what i hate i do".

He didn't.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I am honored to read it. Ironically, we all walk the lonely road together don't we Take courage brother. God hears your prayers and he will answer them.

Thank you for your kind words.

I struggle with many things other than just that one thing. By nature I am evil. However the Lord Jesus Christ, and my Father has helped me a lot along the way from a state which I was in... It's really sad to see other people stuck in a rut and there is nothing one can really do for them other than to love them and try to gentle guide them to see themselves in their natural state and to see what they are capable of by and through the spirt.

My nephew got arrested just the other night, got tazed twice, got caught obstructing justice and also drugs on him... It's hard to bear that and makes me really sad, to know it was all his choice not to go in and go to court and do the right thing. Same thing with my other Nephew who has been sitting in jail for over a year because of his own choices.

Thankful for the Governing authorities, for what they do, and just hope those two young adults... find Christ Jesus now... before they get back out and hope they will stay there until they serve their time. Hope someone comes around and shares with them the truth about him and what it is all about... one has to get right with God before they will ever be able to properly love others. It takes time, and a lot of time really searching for truth and being properly trained in understanding by the holy spirit, and the spirit of Christ with-in others who come to share the news.

Some people are still unskilled and unlearned and that was a place that was for me for a long time, while I was doing my own drug abuse and acting in all sorts of ways as these two young indviduals who I do love, and do wish the best for...

 

[Behold]

Thank you for your kind words.

I struggle with many things other than just that one thing. By nature I am evil.

Let me show you what you have, but you have to posses it by faith.

Ephesians 1:3

'""""Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ".

Notice @MatthewG , that this BLESSING, is already there...

The Blessing of Abraham is already on all of us..... who are born again.

But the believer, has to BELIEVE.... to receive the fullness of it.

See, all things with God are = Faith DELIVERED., because God is A SPIRIT< and CHRISTianity is Spiritual, and FAITH is the working force within the Spiritual Kingdom of God.

Its "by Believing" = is how you access what is already yours, ... as "all the "blessing".

And that includes, being delivered from the "yoke of bondage"...to carnal cravings.

If you will recall the Gospel's... Jesus never said NO to a person who needed help.
It didn't matter if they were a lifelong WHORE....or a Roman Centurion, or a Begging LEPER, or a DEAD MAN or Child, needing LIFE.

See that?

And Jesus told us..>"when you've seen me, you've SEEN THE FATHER".

That means that God's HEART is Jesus's actions.
God's LOVE is Jesus healing, saving, delivering.

When we see Jesus, we see the heart of God.
Jesus is the heart of God.

Do you see Jesus?
That is God, also......He is JUST THE SAME.

 

[MatthewG]

@Behold, I have read all the new testament (except all of Acts.) While I apperciate your help, its obvious everyone has to make a choice; sir, these are things I already know and its best spent time trying to help others than myself. All the best to you for what you choose to do for Yahava and to do the will of God. Take care, may the spirit guide you. May you be encouraged to continue to grow in your own walk with Yahava. Amen.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank you for your kind words.

I struggle with many things other than just that one thing. By nature I am evil. However the Lord Jesus Christ, and my Father has helped me a lot along the way from a state which I was in... It's really sad to see other people stuck in a rut and there is nothing one can really do for them other than to love them and try to gentle guide them to see themselves in their natural state and to see what they are capable of by and through the spirt.

My nephew got arrested just the other night, got tazed twice, got caught obstructing justice and also drugs on him... It's hard to bear that and makes me really sad, to know it was all his choice not to go in and go to court and do the right thing. Same thing with my other Nephew who has been sitting in jail for over a year because of his own choices.

Thankful for the Governing authorities, for what they do, and just hope those two young adults... find Christ Jesus now... before they get back out and hope they will stay there until they serve their time. Hope someone comes around and shares with them the truth about him and what it is all about... one has to get right with God before they will ever be able to properly love others. It takes time, and a lot of time really searching for truth and being properly trained in understanding by the holy spirit, and the spirit of Christ with-in others who come to share the news.

Some people are still unskilled and unlearned and that was a place that was for me for a long time, while I was doing my own drug abuse and acting in all sorts of ways as these two young indviduals who I do love, and do wish the best for...

I knew a man who had a prison ministry. He would talk to them one-on-one and then ask them, "How's that working out for you?" Be patient with your family. I know it hurts but if I have learned only one thing from you it's that we are all waking up at our own speed. It takes longer for some of us than others. My brother had a problem with alcoholism and so I asked him point-blank, "Do you want to see your daughter grow up and get married or see your sons graduate? Do you want to live? Make a choice to live.

Anyway, thanks for allow us the privilege to hear your story and how you are doing.

 

[Behold]

@Behold, I have read all the new testament (except all of Acts.) While I apperciate your help, its obvious everyone has to make a choice; sir, these are things I already know and its best spent time trying to help others than myself. All the best to you for what you choose to do for Yahava and to do the will of God. Take care, may the spirit guide you. May you be encouraged to continue to grow in your own walk with Yahava. Amen.

Isaiah 55:11

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Read your Holy Bible people.

Read your Holy Bible.

Don’t listen to theologians.

They are todays Pharisees.

 

[friend of]

I am having trouble with this. OP makes it sound so simple (just ask God to be sinless and He will make you sinless)

Well, I have been asking God to make me sinless. For years. It hasn't happened.

Just last week I sinned. Someone on the street asked me for money. I told them I didn't have any money to give them, but I did, so I lied. I didn't want to take my wallet out in front of him. So I lied with a little bit of fear mixed in. Its not always wise to give people on the street money because they may use it for drugs and alcohol, which came to my mind. I even forgot to offer to buy him something to eat. Yet another sin of lack of hospitality.

What would any of you who claim to be without sin have done if you were in my situation?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Believe me when i tell you that quoting verses, to try to prove error, is something that you should avoid.

Of course. Why would I do otherwise?

You can't seem to understand that Paul was "made free from sin".... as He wrote that Verse.

Are we talking about 1 Timothy because I don't see where Paul says that he has been made free from sin in that passage? He says that he is the foremost sinner in that passage. The concept of being "freed from sin" is actually found in Romans 6, where Paul has employed the concept of slavery to ask "whom do you serve?" In that context, to be "freed from sin" represents a change of masters. One is either serving sin or serving righteousness. One is freed from master sin to serve master righteousness. But it is a mistake to misconstrue Paul's argument to suggest that we have victory over sin. As I pointed out earlier, victory over sin comes at the "change." 1 Corinthians 15:52 ". . . in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed". At that moment, we have victory over death because we have victory over sin. Not until then.

Are we talking about Romans 7 yet? Why did you include Romans 7 in the title if you didn't want to talk about Romans 7.

You have misunderstood "..if you walk in the Light, in the Spirit, you will not commit (sin) works of the flesh".

Okay, let's look at Romans 8 where Paul talks about walking in the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-17

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

If one is not committing any deeds of the body, what does it mean to put to death those deeds? If sin is no longer present in me, do I still need the Spirit's help to eliminate the deeds of my body? If I have been liberated from sin, then I am also liberated from lust and temptation, which implies that there are no deeds of the body left to be eliminated. But Paul says that if I am walking according to the Spirit I am eliminating the deeds of the body, which logically follows from the fact that sin is still in me and I am still tempted by my lust.

Paul wrote the verse., and you have concluded that this means He is still sinning.

Of course, otherwise, Paul would have said, I WAS the foremost sinner but not anymore because by the blood of Christ, I have been freed from sin. But he never says that. He says I AM the foremost sinner. He didn't say, as you argue, that he committed the "chief" sin, i.e murder. No. Paul didn't say he is still sinning, he said that he is the foremost sinner. Do you understand the difference?

sinning = what I do
sinner = who I am.

Taken together Paul argues that he is no longer serving sin with his body, he is serving righteousness. BUT inwardly, he finds himself coveting all the time. Even those who have stopped sinning or sin very little, are still sinners inside. We are sinners by nature.

Paul's nature is "new Creation in Christ" " born again", = Its the "Divine Nature" as described by Peter.

Don't confuse or conflate two different passages from two different authors. Paul uses the language "new creation" to indicate our new status in Christ, which involves having the Spirit poured out in our hearts. This endowment is only the earnest on our final state, which Paul describes as our inheritance. Victory over sin is something we inherit and it comes at the Seventh Trump, he says.

Jesus uses the term "born again" to also indicate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Peter uses the term "divine nature" to indicate God's power in salvation.

2 Peter 1:1-4

To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. ​

Just like the other apostles, Peter understands that those in Christ are in a transitional period known as sanctification, whereby the believer is being led by the Holy Spirit into all righteousness. They see things in terms of "now" and "then". Now we have the benefit of the Holy Spirit as a down payment of our inheritance. Then we will be changed. Here Peter indicates a future "becoming" whereby w partake of the divine nature and "escape the corruption that is in the world by lust." And as Paul says, this takes place at the Second Coming.

Paul uses the term "new creation" to indicate our new status. It's new because this state of existence was not seen in the world until Christ came, died, resurrected, and ascended. At that moment an entirely new category of human existence was created.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.​

Nothing in there about sin. He argues that we used to recognize Jesus "according to the flesh" which is Paul's way of indicating our typical sociological categories. We knew Jesus as a Jew, a man, a son of Mary, a son of David, etc. This is how people recognized Jesus when he came the first time. But now Jesus has ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, far above all human categories. We now know him as the son of God through the power of resurrection and in this way, Jesus began the "new anthropos" i.e the resurrected, changed, person. Jesus was the first to be changed, which is why he is called the first fruits of many brethren.

The old anthropos came through Adam; the new anthropos comes through Jesus Christ. Right now we exist as a seminal form of the New anthropos, being led by the Holy Spirit. But at the Second Coming of Christ, at the Seventh Trump, we all will be changed -- we shall join him to stand among the new anthropos. Today, as Paul says, God is not counting our sins against us. This is a strange thing to say to those who have already been given victory over sin. Yes? As Paul says in Ephesians, what we have NOW is the Holy Spirit as an earnest of our inheritance. We don't yet have the inheritance.

 

[GeneZ]

-
There is a false teaching, that many are involved in, that has Paul "struggling with sin", and its based on misunderstanding and twisting a verse that is taken out of context, by not quoting the very next verse that is the solution.

Many Quote:

Galatians 5:17 to try to teach Romans 7, as "real Christianity".
They never read Galatians 5:18, and that is the context of 5:17 and of Romans 7.

Read them when you have time..

So, there is Romans 7, where Paul is describing Legalism, that wars against the Spirit Man.
"that which i hate i do"....
Paul kept right on teaching, and most Christians, stopped reading once they read..."that which i hate i do, and that which i want to do, i cant'"
Thousand(s) of Poison Pulpits and error filled commentaries teach that verse as if that is "real Christianity"...... And in fact its not at all.
So, Paul kept teaching, and most Christians stopped reading, and have no idea that He was not describing "Christianity".
= He was describing the mental bondage effect of LEGALISM that will war against your Born again Spirit man, inside you, and make you so miserable, that even telling God again for the 100th Time, that you are "sorry i did that again"... is still not making the guilt and condemnation go away.

So, Lets make it go away and stay away.

Reader,

Most of You have not noticed that Paul never confesses sin, in any Epistle, and never tells the Born Again to do this...

The Reason is....

He explains, that a person who is having trouble with their mind..... (where the lust lives)(where the confusion lives), ... this is because they have not renewed their mind so that their sin consciousness becomes this..

A.) "Christ always gives me the Victory".

AA.) "I can do all things through Christ, which STRENGTHENS me'.

See, its the Devil who wants you to believe that Christianity is..."sin... confess... repeat"... or that its..."struggling against sin, and failing again".
Its the devil's ministers who will teach that to you to try to ruin your faith.
Do not listen,
Leave that Church.
Find a real one.

So, "sin, confess, Repeat" and " struggling against sin and failing again."""""" = That's the Devil's lie, and Paul never teaches that.... He teaches the exact Opposite., but you have to read ALL of His Teaching.
You have to do this.... .Paul teaches..."follow ME....as i follow Christ'. (not worship, but follow the TEACHER).

Paul, the "apostle to the gentiles".. "In the time of the Gentiles'.. (and you are in it right now... Reader.)... Teaches that the "old man of sin is Crucified with Christ", and that we are to see HIM DEAD., as our REAL FAITH.
Do you yet?
The Born again, are to understand that we are "made FREE From sin", and "made RIghteous"...and that to """walk in the Spirit, and you will not commit the deeds = works of the Flesh""

Listen..

Paul teaches this...>"Use not your liberty for an occasion to the Flesh".

What does that mean?
It means that when you understand your Salvation, (worked it out)... and how Eternally Free you are from Judgment, and how "made righteous" you are and will always be, by God's "Gift of Righteousness"........ then it can be that you might choose to "have a little too much fun one day".
And what Paul is showing you, is that you are so DELIVERED from Sin Consciousness, that you literally have to choose to go and commit a carnal deed, as there is nothing in you that temps you any more.
See that?
You'll become so "made free from sin" that you can actually test this, and you'll find that whatever it was, that you use to lust to do, is becoming/become nothing to you now.
No attraction... no more desire to do it.

"made free from Sin".
"The Old Man is Crucified with Christ".

Here is the main thing that most believers do not understand, and if you can SEE this, then this will begin your renewed mind that will cause sin consciousness to fade away over time.... right into..."Christ ALWAYS gives me the Victory". .......over the world, the flesh, and the devil.

A.) You have to understand and BELIEVE.... that : """"you are not under the Law, but Under Grace."""

= NO MATTER WHAT.
No Matter What.
This means that what you did wrong recently perhaps ?????? , that the law previously defined as "sin" before you were saved....... is now... "not under the Law but under Grace".
See, its not just YOU that is "under Grace".. Its everything you do, as well.

You are this, if you are born again...

"Made righteous"
"in Christ"
"ONE with God'"
"Temple of the Holy Spirit"
Having Become "The righteousness OF GOD...IN CHRIST".

See, the Born again .. exist '"""IN CHRIST""""...."One with God", and there is no sin found there...

The born again exist HERE :

"As Jesus IS.....so are the born again, in THIS World"...

And when you BELIEVE THIS by revelation, you wont have any "license to sin" issue, as the heretics will teach you.
Not at all.
What will happen is that your heart will be more in Love with God, and your will shall become more dedicated to giving Him all of you.

That's the effect of God's Grace in your mind and heart, once you begin to see yourself as God sees you, = as become "the righteousness of God, in Christ". = THE Renewed MIND.

To help baby Christians who were new to the spiritual battle believers must face, Paul chose his own example
speaking retrospectively of his own struggle in his early days in Christ.

 

[Behold]

Of course. Why would I do otherwise?

Are we talking about 1 Timothy because I don't see where Paul says that he has been made free from sin in that passage?

I didnt say it was in that passage.

Its in Romans 6

Thats the chapter before the "what i hate i do"

Imagine that....

Romans 6:22-23​

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

He says that he is the foremost sinner in that passage .

Uh huh.

You go right ahead and believe that he's a "sinning apostle".

The concept of being "freed from sin" is actually found in Romans 6,

Its great that you went and found the verse.
Glad i could help.

If one is not committing any deeds of the body, what does it mean to put to death those deeds? If sin is no longer present in me,

The old man of sin is already dead.

"Crucified with Christ".

So, "reckon him dead", is what Paul teaches.

Of course, otherwise, Paul would have said, I WAS the foremost sinner

As i said before.

sinner = who I am.

You should not be that one.
Paul wasn't.

Just like the other apostles, Peter understands that those in Christ are in a transitional period known as sanctification,

Read Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:30

That's not a process, thats a conclusion, for all who are "in Christ".

Paul uses the term "new creation" to indicate our new status. It's new because this state of existence was not seen in the world until Christ came, died, resurrected, and ascended. At that moment an entirely new category of human existence was created.

Listen.... being born again is not a new human existence.

Its a New Creation, "in Christ' SPIRITUAL Birth

The "New Man" is not a human existence..

Being "in Christ" is not a human existence, its a Spiritual Birth into GOD's Holy Spirit.

The Human experience is trying to stop sinning, instead of understanding what Paul teaches as already becoming "the righteousness o GOD..... in Christ".

being led by the Holy Spirit.

No one is "led of the Spirit" who defines themselves as a sinner and a Christian who then teaches in public that Paul is a sinning apostle.

Believe it.

 

[Behold]

To help baby Christians who were new to the spiritual battle believers must face, Paul chose his own example
speaking retrospectively of his own struggle in his early days in Christ.

Its a testimony that is also Paul teaching.

He's not in that struggle, he's showing the struggle that is going to happen when you try to DO GOOD, to be accepted by God, vs, existing in the Grace of God as "made righteous", that is our redemption, completed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

To help baby Christians who were new to the spiritual battle believers must face, Paul chose his own example
speaking retrospectively of his own struggle in his early days in Christ.

While that might be true, what we would expect to read from Paul is something like "that was then but now . . ."

 

[Behold]

While that might be true, what we would expect to read from Paul is something like "that was then but now . . ."

Or could it be that you are to "study to show yourself approved unto God", so that what you teach does not insult Paul's Discipleship and God's Grace?

Hummm.
Could be.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I didnt say it was in that passage.

You didn't say where it was.

Romans 6:22-23​

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Contrary to your interpretation of "made free", Paul is answering the question, "whom do you serve: master sin or master righteousness?" The topic of discussion in that passage is NOT sinless perfectionism, but the course of our walk. Take note of his language below.

Romans 6:12-14

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.​

In this passage, Paul urges his audience to resist allowing sin to have control over them. He advises them to avoid using their bodies as tools for unrighteousness. Later on, he argues from the logic of servitude. Essentially, if I allow my body to be used for unrighteousness, then I am serving sin, and sin becomes my master. However, if I use my body to serve righteousness, then righteousness becomes my master. In summary, Paul encourages his readers to choose a path away from a life of sin and towards a life of righteousness.

In short, Paul's exhortations in Chapter 6 concern issues under my direct control. His argument assumes that it is well within my power and ability to stop using my members in service to sin and begin to use my members in service to righteousness. Some Christians teach that the Holy Spirit helps us accomplish our goal of serving righteousness rather than sin. In general, I agree with them.

At the end of chapter 7, Paul moves in a slightly different direction: the redemption of our bodies. I may have been freed from my bondage to sin, but I remain a sinner by nature. Sin is still within me; lust remains. In my body are desires that are contrary to the will of God. My struggle with sin is not a conflict with an external power; I struggle against myself. That is Paul's point in Romans chapter 7.

You go right ahead and believe that he's a "sinning apostle".

Well, I prefer to think about it this way. I heard an honest man's true assessment of his own condition, and it sounds very familiar. I purposely emphasized "condition" because according to Paul's own testimony, he has found sin within him. He considers sin to be a state of being. He refers to his body as "a body of death." His hope is to cast of his moral body and be given his new body at the resurrection.

At the end of Chapter 7 he concludes:

Romans 7:21-25

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

In this passage, Paul honestly admits to his own struggles with the presence of evil within himself. While he agrees with God's law in his mind and heart, he recognizes a different "law" at work within his physical body, which creates a constant struggle between his good intentions and his impulses. Ultimately, Paul acknowledges that he, like all of us, is flawed at the core of his being and experiences a constant internal battle. He describes himself as a "wretched man," yearning for release from this struggle and seeking salvation from God.

The old man of sin is already dead.

According to Paul, it is very much alive. Remember, Paul says that serving "master righteousness" is within our ability. We can choose to serve God, Love, righteousness, goodness, and truth. As a course of action, we can present our members in service to such things. But, he argues, he is still in bondage to what he calls his "body of death."

"Crucified with Christ".

Context is king so let's turn to Galatians.

Galatians 2:17-21
17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

In this passage, Paul acknowledges his own sinfulness and poses an argument. He questions whether his being a sinner and a follower of Christ means that Jesus is somehow condoning sin. To make his argument, Paul establishes two key points: 1) he seeks justification through Christ and 2) he recognizes himself as a sinner. Without these premises, his argument would lack coherence. In Romans chapter 7, Paul summarizes his argument by stating that he has died to the law through the law. Essentially, he explains that he once sought justification by following the Law, but found it impossible because he struggled with coveting and the conflict between his mind and body.

The author is defending the character of Christ and implies that he has been crucified with him. This does not mean that he has achieved victory over sin. Instead, he is defending Christ, who promoted the idea of taking up our own cross to follow him. Practically, this means denying our own lusts and desires to serve Christ. The author also states that it is no longer about their own will, but submitting to the will of Christ. However, this does not mean that they are entirely free of lust or desire. The lust remains until the Last Trumpet when we shall all be changed.

 

[Ritajanice]

The old man of sin is already dead.

"Crucified with Christ".

So, "reckon him dead", is what Paul teaches.

Rom.6​

[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Behold]

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

"shall not be a master over you".

Why?

Because sin lives in the Old man that is Crucified with Christ.
How can a dead man be a master over a Born again New Creation?
Therefore, if you walk in the Spirit, you shall not fulfill the lust of , the works of the Flesh".

Who is "in the Spirit"?

A.) All the born again.

Romans 7:21-25

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body​

The sin principle, is the adamic nature, that is the "old man of Sin".
This is Sin Consciousness.
This is dealt with by the Blood of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:3

Also,

2nd Adam, who is Jesus has taken our sin, and our old man of sin is crucified with Christ.

What is left?

'your body is dead because of sin".

What is left?

= The 'new Creation in Christ", and there is no sin found there.

See, SIN, can only be found, "under the Law", as the Law defines it.
The Born again are 'not under the law, but under Grace". So, when you define yourself as a sinner, then you are defining yourself as not being "in Christ", and "not being under Grace".

That's your theology, so, that's on you.

Galatians 2:17-21
17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, i

You have taken "IF" and turned it into Romans 7.

It does not belong there.

See, its never good to rewrite Paul's verse, as your personal theology of "im a sinner, still".

Paul says "IF".. and you say..>"see there, he's doing it".

But he didnt say that... you did.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Or could it be that you are to "study to show yourself approved unto God", so that what you teach does not insult Paul's Discipleship and God's Grace?

Hummm.
Could be.

Maybe, but your comment doesn't follow from mine.

In Romans 7, Paul admits that sin is so deep into the core of his being that he is a wretched man who cries out to be freed from his body of Death. But he never follows that idea with a statement confirming a transformation of his inner core. Thus, unless I am missing something, Paul would deny the doctrine of perfect sinlessness.

 

[MatthewG]

Maybe, but your comment doesn't follow from mine.

In Romans 7, Paul admits that sin is so deep into the core of his being that he is a wretched man who cries out to be freed from his body of Death. But he never follows that idea with a statement confirming a transformation of his inner core. Thus, unless I am missing something, Paul would deny the doctrine of perfect sinlessness.

This, CadyandZoe, is why it is so important to stick close to the scriptures and learn and grow in knowledge though it causes grief and also increases the pain of knowing the reality that is of 'fact' truth. That is why everyone should consider every man a liar and seek and search for truth themselves. There are people that can become deluded and have their mind more based on a fleshly way, rather than the spiritual way and things tend to get mixed up in the confusion. There are those who will take in the considerable information, and those who reject it and only desire their own premise, without allowing change and only desiring praise by others or take pride in their own selves.