Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Precisely what I’ve been trying to say. There’s a story of these two in Genesis. Abraham being the Father and Eliezer of Damascus the first servant in his house. Abrahams only heir, prior to the gifting of children.
TODAY you will be with me in paradise
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Thanks for the reference. This is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:
- Display and indent the quoted text.
- Selectively bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making. No need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
- Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole chapter.
These verses do not say: The incorrigibly wicked will simply not wake up.
You are overgeneralizing and jumping to a conclusion.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Nope. Paul said, "To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord." Paul said he would rather be with the Lord at that time, but chose to stay for the sake of the Church. I know what you are implying, but think of it as time moves forward, the spiritual moves alongside, not confined to time. Example, in Rev. 5:3-4, John states that no one in heaven or on earth could open the scroll. Okay, so that was pre- death and resurrection. Then verses 5 & 6, all of a sudden Jesus is there, having already died, rose and ascended. So Heaven did not witness Jesus as a lamb who had been slaughtered until it happened on earth. This was a vision of when Jesus arrived in Heaven (in John's past), since Revelation was written about 95 AD.
Jesus said, "TODAY ..." and He meant it. Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Elijah, David and all the OT saints who lived by faith went to Paradise, a place separate from Sheol. Read Luke 16. That is not a parable. Parables never included names of real people, nor was that some abstract reality that didn't exist. Why would Jesus fictionalize Hades and Paradise and claim that the Rich was in one place and Abraham and Lazarus another, if they didn't exist? No, Sheol was real and so was Paradise. Jesus went to Paradise on that day and brought this man with him - only a moment after their deaths.
When Stephen was stoned to death, he said, "Lord receive my spirit". He didn't mean in 2000 years, he meant at that moment. His stream of consciousness was not interupted.
Enoch and Elijah were taken up. Where do you think they went, through some worm hole? Maybe. People in NDE describe going through a tunnel at high speeds towards a light. ??? Whatever, your consciousness continues, as well as time on earth. Of course heaven is outside of our time domain, which is a physical dimension, but don't try to figure that one out.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
My conclusion is that when Jesus made the statement to the individual next to him he was already in the bosom of the Father.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I understand your argument, and if it was true it would be a great point. However, the creed stating that Christ was "dead" for 3 days did not really say that, although some might think that. Rather, it said that Christ would be "in the grave" 3 days physically, before rising physically from the dead in his old body.
Where was Christ when his body lay dead in the grave? His spirit was with the Lord, in my opinion. I don't think it's possible to separate Christ's human spirit from God's Holy Spirit....ever, because they are one. (I don't believe Christ was in the abode of the dead--his body was simply dead.)
So, even though the body may lay dead for 3 days, and appears to be "sleeping," in reality the spirit of a man is still alive and with God, or alive in some place created by God to hold those spirits. Jesus, being God's Son, simply remained with God.
And, I believe, the spirits of believers remain with God even when their bodies sleep or die. When we die, however, we cease to be physically unconscious and are fully aware that we are with God. My opinion.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
RR144
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Can you write any scripture that teaches that the spirit of man is an independent thinking self conscious entity apart from the body? That idea is Platonic, but where is it in the Bible? What did the Spirit look like? Where was it before the body was formed? Was it a living conscious entity before the body was formed? What does the Greek word for spirit actually mean,?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
See posts #15 & #19….I bolden what needs emphasizing in any scripture I quote…..I wasn’t aware that we needed to be “scholarly” in order to discuss scripture. I don’t recall Jesus being “scholarly” in his words to people…in fact he often refrained from explaining what he said unless he was asked for an explanation. He allowed his words to be accepted at face value or not. Those “drawn” by the Father “got it”. (John 6:44, 65)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
KJV John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
While Jesus' body lay dead in the grave his spirit was in Paradise with the Father, He may have at the same time, or in the same day, visited the holding tank of the dead, proclaiming to them Eternal Judgment. I don't know? All I know is that Jesus died and his spirit went to be with the Father in Paradise until it returned to his body on the 3rd day. Since he arose in his old body, now healed, he still had to ascend into heaven to receive from his Father a new immortal body. This also is what we must do.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Several questions here. The spirit is, I think, an animating force that becomes a soul, a personality, when joined to a body. Afterwards, the soul may become unclothed from its body, to be re-clothed in a new body. So yes, the spirit, or soul, of a man survives the death of the body and is destined to obtain a new immortal body.
However, the righteous obtain with their immortal bodies Eternal Life. As such, they enter into a blessed state of Paradise with God. The ungodly, however, are separated from God by their own choice, though God places them where they need to be to keep living and serving him in some capacity. We would not call it "blessed" because the presence of the Lord is for them somewhat distant, though still necessarily connected.
This is Bible, and is not from Plato, nor from Greek philosophy. The idea of God giving breath to a physical human body is the account in Genesis, which Moses recorded, well before Plato existed. Ecclesiastes indicates the spirit of a man goes upwards, while the spirit of a beast goes downward. We just can't fathom it.
In the event where King Saul consulted the witch of Endor, Samuel's spirit appeared. It looked like Samuel, but was obviously different.
Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
1 Sam 28.13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Is this what the scriptures teach....or is this what Christendom’s churches teach? There is no such thing as an “immortal soul” ever mentioned in the Bible. “Souls” are mortal...they can die. (Ezekiel 18:4) An immortal cannot die.
There is no “holding tank for the dead” because their graves are their “holding tank”. In order for the dead to live again, a resurrection must take place.....you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.
Jesus was dead in his tomb for three days before his Father resurrected him. If that was not true, then Jesus lied about being in the heart of the earth for three days and nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish. (Matt 12:39-40)
Jesus did not rise in his old body.....that body was sacrificed and Jesus was raised in a spirit body (1 Pet 3:18) and was able to “appear” to his disciples after his resurrection. They did not always recognise him and at times he produced a body with the evidence of his execution, whereas at other times he had no visible wounds. He was able to appear and disappear at will.....so this was not his old body, but a new one that had the same kind of powers that angels manifested when they also appeared in human form to God’s earthly servants. Spirit beings can materialise when necessary to carry out their assignments as God’s messengers.
As for the thief who asked Jesus to remember him when he got into his kingdom.....since Jesus was in his grave “that day”....it was impossible for the thief to be anywhere but the same place where Jesus went that day...”hades”, which is the common grave of all mankind.
Jesus experienced a resurrection, which was a return to life three days after his death. It was not a continuation of his life in spiritual form at the moment of death.....Jesus did not have an immortal soul either......that is a lie told by the devil back in the garden of Eden. It was satan who said. “You surely will not die” when God told them that they would......so who lied?
Paradise is not heaven...the first paradise was right here on earth where redeemed mankind will live forever....the thief will be among those resurrected to enjoy that destiny. (John 5:28-29)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You're placing yourself outside of "Christendom?"
Paul speaks about the gift of "immortality" to be bestowed on the righteous at the resurrection. We are *not* immortal presently--that's quite obvious. ;)
The "dead" for me refers to 2 aspects of a person, the soul and the body. Both are dead when the body dies, though the spirit is still alive and conscious.
The Bible seems to indicate that true "life" is defined as something greater than simple consciousness, that life after death continues to exist after death. Natural life begins when a soul is joined to a body. Hence, the departed soul, though still conscious and living when the body is dead, needs to be resurrected and re-joined to a body.
Jesus' body was in the grave for 3 days. His spirit, or soul, was in Paradise with his Father God.
That is your belief--not mine. Jesus was handled by Doubting Thomas, who recognized the physical body of Jesus. A "spirit body" does not have scars! That's why Jesus was still in his old body, merely healed. He still had to ascend to God in heaven to receive his immortal body. You don't want to live forever in these weak, sick bodies of sin!
Even people in mortal bodies can do astounding miracles. Philip was translated across distance in a moment. Jesus walked on the water in his mortal body. None of this means he was in a "spirit body," whatever that means?
Yes, Hades refers to our common grave, but I think there may have been compartments dividing the righteous from the ungodly.
Adam and Eve had mortal bodies in the beginning, but had opportunity to partake of the Tree of Life, or immortality. You're right--Jesus did not have an immortal body yet.
But he legally qualified for one, once he had finished his work of forgiving us at the cross. And because he qualified for one, we can too if we choose him as our Lord, and allow him to rule in our heart.
The New Earth will be a paradise, no doubt.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is not in the Bible, but is borrowed from pagan ideas about the soul. A “soul” is literally a “breather”.
When breathing stops the soul dies, both man and animals. (Eccl 3:19-20) Both man and animals breathe the same air and die the same death......neither goes to an afterlife.
Again, not a Bible teaching but a twisted version of what it actually says...
Those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven are a minority of Christians....the majority will be their subjects on earth....many of who, like the thief, will be raised to either life, (having died faithful) or to a period of judgment. Paying for his crimes, this man was hardly a righteous one. (John 5:28-29)
Do you know the difference between “hades” and “Gehenna”? All the human dead who are not judged incorrigible by God will be raised from death, both the good and bad.....some have lived at time or in a location where the true God was not known, so because they have never heard of God or Jesus, they will be offered a period of judgment to bring their lives into harmony with God and his chosen king.
In Jewish understanding, anyone thrown into “Gehenna” was garbage that needed to be disposed of.
It was a literal place, but with a symbolic meaning. Nothing alive was ever cast into Gehenna. And nothing ever came out of there because it was garbage thrown there to be destroyed.
All ideas about an immortal soul come from platonic Greek notions, NOT from scripture. For God’s people, there was no afterlife by means of an invisible conscious part of man that departed from the body at death.
A resurrection is all they knew, and they were told NOT to adopt pagan ideas from the people of the nations....yet they always did. So has Christendom.
If you read that account, you will see that the woman was the last of her ilk in the land. Saul himself had eradicated the practice of spiritism at God’s command. This woman had somehow slipped through, unnoticed.
1 Sam 28.13 “The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.“
It says that Saul asked the woman to bring up the prophet Samuel....he never saw or heard him or spoke to him...only the woman conveyed what this “spirit” said and what he looked like.
Now, if the living prophets refused to speak to Saul because of his disobedience, why would a dead prophet do so by a means that God had forbidden? (Deut 18:9-12)
That spirit was not Samuel, but a demon impersonating him....
The ”spirit” is their breath......the same “spirit” or “breath of life” that animated Adam.
For humans “the spirit returns to God” in that only God can give breath back to a resurrected body.....but for animals to whom eternal life was not granted, their spirit goes down into the earth with them.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes...way outside. At the time of Christ’s judgment between the “wheat and the weeds”, there is no longer any similarity between them. The reapers are confident about which is which as they have “grown together” but are very much apart at the end. By what we accept as truth, we each determine our own destiny....God will never interfere with our choices as we are free willed, and accountable for our choices.
That depends on who “we” is. There are two classes of Christians...a small number specially chosen by God to assist Christ in his kingdom as “kings and priests”.....these will be resurrected “first” (Rev 20:6) and there is also the general resurrection of the dead, which will take place when the Kingdom rules this earth as its only government. (John 5:28-29; Daniel 2:44)
I am not one of the “chosen ones” but will look forward to their rulership as they are specifically chosen by God for that role.
There is no conscious part of man that leaves the body at death.....no scripture says so.
When the body dies so does the soul, but the spirit is the “breath” that animates us....when the spirit goes out (like a light or a candle goes out)....it does not consciously live on....all consciousness ceases. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)
No scripture teaches this. It is an assumption based on a lie....because when we die, we are actually dead....death is the opposite of life. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.
There never was a “heaven or hell” scenario. It was only ever “life or death”.
His spirit left his body with his last exhalation. That which animates the mortal body ceases, and the soul dies. The spirit is not the soul and the soul is not a spirit....they mean two entirely different things.
Why would Jesus be raised with the wounds of his execution, when God had the power to heal him?
Why were these wounds only visible at the times when he had to convince a doubting Thomas?
If his disciples did not always recognise him and no mention is made of his poor physical condition except on those occasions when he wanted to convince the doubters, can you explain why his body was not a sad and sorry sight on all the occasions when people saw him? The disciples who conversed with him on the road did not recognise him....(Luke 24:28-35) Surely if his battered body was the in the same condition as when he died three days earlier, they would have said something about that? Jesus was cruelly tortured before his execution.
Philip was? Where will I find that in the Bible? I know Elijah was.....
This was a demonstration of what faith can do.....Peter also walked on the water until he doubted....only then did he begin to sink and was saved by his Lord. This was before Jesus death and resurrection. (Matt 14:23-31)
Jesus’ abilities were those of a normal human being until he presented himself for baptism...only then was he anointed or baptized with the holy spirit so as to perform miracles.
The 120 disciples in the upper room in Jerusalem received holy spirit and were thereafter able to perform miracles.
But Jesus was not resurrected in the flesh, as Peter said...he was resurrected “in the spirit” or in spirit form as were the chosen elect going to be when he returned to take them “home”.......the mortal would then put on immortality....but that is only for the elect, not for those who will be their subjects on earth. They will be resurrected as Lazarus was....physically returned to life, and reunited with his family. (John 11:11-14)
Again you infer consciousness when the Bible does not speak of consciousness after death....just the opposite. (Psalm 6:5; Psalm 115:17)
Adam and Eve were never created to be immortal. They were offered “everlasting life” but it was conditional.
“Everlasting life” for humans was dependent upon access to the only source of that life.....denying access to “the tree of life” meant certain death. They were never meant to be immortal, but obedience to God would have kept them living....forever. (Gen 3:22-24)
If they were immortal, death could not have overtaken them, and the death penalty would have been meaningless.
If Jesus was God incarnate, he was already immortal and hence he could not die to save humanity.
Yes, he legally qualified for immortal life after his earthly mission was successfully completed.....it came with the “authority” given to him by his Father.....something he did not have before. (Matt 28:18)
Indeed....Rev 21:2-4 guarantees it. No more suffering, pain or grief.....mankind will, for the first time, be governed by God’s kingdom under the 1000 year rulership of his son, to restore all that Adam lost for us. Christ’s sacrifice makes all of that possible.
Gabriel _Arch
Well-Known Member
Paradise=Heaven.
We don't know when that thief died on his own cross. I take Immanuel's promise to him as a statement made on that day. Not that on that day the thief would be with Immanuel in Heaven=Paradise.
And I think that's the case because Immanuel did not go to Heaven when he died that day.
We don't know when that thief died on his own cross. I take Immanuel's promise to him as a statement made on that day. Not that on that day the thief would be with Immanuel in Heaven=Paradise.
And I think that's the case because Immanuel did not go to Heaven when he died that day.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The interesting thing about the two hung alongside Jesus at Calvary, is that it was the custom of the Romans to hasten death at the end of the day’s torture by breaking the legs of those hung on their execution stakes....this meant not being able to push up with their feet to take a breath, thereby collapsing their lungs so they would suffocate. (The Romans loved cruelty) but when they went to break Jesus’ legs, they found that he had already died. This fulfilled another prophesy written about him in Psalm 34:20.....”He is guarding all his bones; Not one of them has been broken”. (John 19:36)
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