How Evil Are Humans?

[Marty fox]

Wow just reading through all of this you guys aren't getting nowhere and remember we are all supposed to be on the same team and discuss the bible as brothers with grace and respect, accusing or insulting attitudes just don't help and put people on the defense you will never get through to them with technique.

I don't believe that any of you hate God, the scriptures, Jesus or the Jews.

We do need to respect the scriptures without that anchor anything goes and there is no authority.

Quitethinker you mention what you think about the OT and some of its writers view as being wrong but have been shown in the NT more than once that Jesus and Paul confirms the OT view.

Jack you need to remember that apostate Israel was the perfect example of Johns description of the AC and the Pharisees job was to point the Jews to their Messiah but they had the people reject and kill their God and Messiah. That is the perfect example of a false prophet.

Fulness of gentiles I agree mostly with you but still your approach at times is wrong.

The bible through Paul states that all Israel will be saved but Paul shortly before saying that states that not all Israel is Israel.

Paul also says all Israel will be saved right after he mentions that the Jews and the gentiles are both grafted into the same olive branch this shows us that all Israel is true Israel the church made up of both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

I get your point…

They were experiencing WITH God, without a negative consequence.

They were warned of a negative consequence for One particular choice.

Similar, as parents with little children.

Adam was warned directly by God. Eve was warned by Adam who failed to uphold the command to not eat.

I would consider being unaware of the consequences of disobedience or even of obedience, both Adam and Eve were incapable of making a conscious decision to disobey. They were led to believe the serpent as innocently in their trust as they were in flowing God's words.

It is not their responsibility that the serpent entered paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

I disagree.
I think they were innocent because they did not know the difference between right and wrong,as we are told.

Wrong theology. Right and wrong is not equal to good and evil. Did they understand good, or is that impossible without knowing evil? Right and wrong are moral terms or decisions. One can experience evil and still not understand right and wrong.

There was not an age of being innocent. How can living in obedience be equated with not being guilty of a crime? Was Eve "not guilty" of Adam eating the fruit? There was no guilt, nor crime, nor sin, nor death, period. It was the age of being a son of God with all the benefits and entitlement of being like God in every way except God letting Satan rebel. Satan's rebellion was the only known evil in the entire creation. Satan did not even know nor understand death. We are not even told if the angels rebelled before or after Adam disobeyed. But he seemed very curious, as he was the one who instigated events to allow that knowledge to be known. Was Satan innocent as well because he had no knowledge of death either? Being innocent would apply to both angels and sons of God. Except innocent implies some were guilty while others were not. What about evil was creation not guilty about, if evil itself was unknown.

Even Satan's rebellion was not as evil as the result that Adam's disobedience would cause to creation. People use the word innocent as lacking knowledge. That may be true after sin was in the world.

It can not be true prior to the existence of something. Was God innocent as well? Does foreknowledge count, or only knowledge to that point in creation? What is the reality of lacking knowledge of something that does not even exist except in the name of a tree?

Why not just state it was a dispensation prior to sin? It cannot be defined by one word. Do you think they lacked the knowledge of good, or just the dynamic between good and evil?

Can we even recognize the length of this dispensation?

 

[Jack]

Jack you need to remember that apostate Israel was the perfect example of Johns description of the AC and the Pharisees job was to point the Jews to their Messiah but they had the people reject and kill their God and Messiah. That is the perfect example of a false prophet.

John 11
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

 

[Taken]

How so?

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Once Adam was dead physically and spiritually, he had no way to redeem nor change himself.

Adam was still in the garden when Adam was discovered to have eaten of the tree of good and evil. He was neither, physically or spiritually dead. The curse told Adam was the ground would be cursed, the same ground (outside of the Garden from which Adam was formed).

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Adam did not. Therefore…once Adam passed through the threshold out of the garden, THEN was Adam “spiritually dead”, ie. Separated from God, yet continued physically living.

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

There was no way any human could change until Jesus physically died on the Cross.

Salvation was effected From the Beginning…
It was given to men, “not before a physical death”, but given to men WHO physically DIED, believing in God and His Word.
(The same applies to this day).

What occurred when JESUS died on the Cross, was a BETTER TESTAMENT….
That “physically ALIVE men CAN (via Gods Offering and Way), remain physically ALIVE, AND RECEIVE SALVATION THEN, BEFORE their physical Death”.
They Pledge a Covenant with the Lord God of their Belief, of Pledging their body’s LIFE unto God, (when it becomes physically dead), via being “crucified WITH Jesus’ body” and meantime…
Their soul is made saved, via Gods Power
Their spirit is made born again, via Gods Seed
They occupy Christ Jesus’ RISEN BODY…
(Waiting for their own body to die, rise up glorified, FOR their “saved soul and born again body”, to occupy their OWN glorified body.)

A man choosing the option of Jesus’ revealed: Better Testament, has chosen a “guarantee”, to live the rest of their physical life, with the Power of God “with and in them”, to Forever His Power to KEEP them …
From temptations, evil and wickedness of this world with power to convince that man to stop Believing….now impossible, since Gods Power is supreme over all other powers.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

It’s called a man “living sacrifice” and “reasonable service”.

Rom 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Rom 12
[5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Reasonable service, indicates BASIC service.
Thereafter once a man IS “in Christ”, he can do many works to “Glorify God”, and such works ARE a service (not unto Salvation, which he has already received…) Rather are works for which that man SHALL receive “rewards” that will be stored up in Heaven “called treasures”….and rewarded (given) to the man when the Son of man returns. (BTW…those rewards are crowns).

Living under the Law was not a means to change. The Law was only a means to obey God to keep the Covenant in effect.

Every man Ancient to this day, WHO Bodily Died/ Dies IN Belief…WAS SAVED, SHALL BE SAVED.

Every man’s BODY SHALL Die…It is the Belief in his heart (natural spirits truth)…on the day his body dies, that determines if that man will or will not BE Saved.

Choosing an assured Salvation no matter what day a mans body dies; Was Jesus’ assured Offering.
Murderers, thieves, liars, cheats, immorally corrupt, up to the moment of their physical death, can repent, confess true belief, and be forgiven and washed of all unrighteousness and saved.
The FACT is: most people do not know the moment their physical death shall occur…and if not Sanctified, will miss that opportunity…
And WHY Scripture warns an urgency to all men…be prepared (reach out and Take Christ Jesus’ assured offering of Salvation Now).

Yes, all since Adam can choose to morally be responsible and attempt to eliminate sin. But that does not change one's state of death. That only means they prevent the physical results of moral consequences. Living morally good is still a state of death and will still net one a spot in the LOF.

Difference….
** Living Forgiven, and Gods Power WITH “and” IN you to Keep you ONLY unto Him.
** Living not Forgiven, and Gods Power NOT IN you to Keep you FROM falling for temptations of Evil and wicked powers OF this world.

Nothing a human can do will redeem a soul.

Not true. (Not an others soul, but his own)
Hear Gods Word….God blesses THAT man with Faith.
Believe Gods Word…that is a WORK THAT man does….God blesses THAT man with “blessings” of all kinds of things.
Call on the Lord…Heartfully Repent for having NOT believed….God blesses THAT man with “forgiveness”.
Call on the Lord….Heartfully CONFESS Belief…God blesses THAT man with “soul restoration, ie. saving”
Call on the Lord…Heartfully CHOOSE to give your bodily life unto DEATH, “for your Love of God”….God blesses THAT man with “His SEED, to rebirth that mans natural spirit to a FOREVER Living spirit”.

How do you know Adam never submitted to the Holy Spirit?

Originally, Separated from God (spiritual death) Because he was sent out of the Garden.
Eventually, Physically died. And Was spiritually saved, as Scripture reveals he was a “son of God”.

Is that knowledge based on human theology? Extra biblical writings?

No and No. Scriptural text.

Adam's disobedience brought sin into the world.

Get your point…however actually the first “sinner” Lucifer, an angel was cast to earth, present on earth, Before mankind, and became the chief influencer, cunning trickster to fool men through lies that appear as being in agreement with God.

God was not going to let Adam live in death for thousands of years. There was no opportunity to change humanity out of death, until the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The only 2 exceptions would be Enoch and Moses.

For 4,000 years men lived and die Believing IN God AND HIS WORD, (unknowing Gods Words NAME). And once they bodily Died IN Belief, they were SAVED.

No man can BECOME saved, “UNTIL” they BeLIEVE….AND their BODY is “accounted” DEAD…
Physically….or via a better testament…ie Bodily crucified with Christ.

It’s the understanding OF DEATH…Nothing can be “Born…….AGAIN”….without a DEATH of the OLD.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Quickened…..ie Born Again.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Marty fox]

John 11
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

Well of course many Jews believed in Jesus and are saved Paul himself was a Jew and so were all of the disciples and most of the first church.

I could also post scriptures showing the Jews who rejected Jesus and called for His death. The scriptures also show that some of them claimed that they have no king but Cesar and let Jesus death be on them and their children but that doesn't mean that all of Israel are evil.

The point is that many Jews were Johns description of the AC but many of them were Jesus believing saints also we are to pray that many more come to know Jesus in the future.

But what I'm showing from scripture is that true all Israel is the church made up of both Jew and Gentile.

When Paul said that all Israel will be saved he also quoted Isiah

Romans 11:26-27​

​

​

26 and in this way[a] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[b] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[c]

“The deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion; (national Israel)
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.(spiritual Israel)
27 And this is[b] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[c]

Paul and Isiah used two different descriptive name for Israel for a reason

 

[Taken]

Adam was warned directly by God. Eve was warned by Adam who failed to uphold the command to not eat.

I would consider being unaware of the consequences of disobedience or even of obedience, both Adam and Eve were incapable of making a conscious decision to disobey. They were led to believe the serpent as innocently in their trust as they were in flowing God's words.

It is not their responsibility that the serpent entered paradise.

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

What she was expressly told NOT to do…
She CHOSE to do…look, decide it was good, herself took, herself ate.

True, she likely did not Understand “death”, but did understand DO NOT.

Sort or like a little child being told not to go into the street a car might kill them. Likely they do not know what Kill means, and maybe they go into the street are hit, not killed, still live, but are crippled, which is also not an understanding a child can understand that feeling, but can see others who are crippled, struggling.

I taught my little children, and BTW my dog…
Observing when they actually were HURT, didn’t like it, cried, whimper, whined and used that word can “Hurt” you when warning them Against Dangers.
For the little kids, they all were given a day of experiencing…legs bound so they could not walk, eyes covered so they could not see, an arm bound, ears covered….excepting one child who IS profoundly deaf.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Adam was warned directly by God. Eve was warned by Adam who failed to uphold the command to not eat.

I would consider being unaware of the consequences of disobedience or even of obedience, both Adam and Eve were incapable of making a conscious decision to disobey. They were led to believe the serpent as innocently in their trust as they were in flowing God's words.

It is not their responsibility that the serpent entered paradise.

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

What she was expressly told NOT to do…
She CHOSE to do…look, decide it was good, herself took, herself ate.

True, she likely did not Understand “death”, but did understand DO NOT.

Sort or like a little child being told not to go into the street a car might kill them. Likely they do not know what Kill means, and maybe they go into the street are hit, not killed, still live, but are crippled, which is also not an understanding a child can understand that feeling, but can see others who are crippled, struggling.

I taught my little children, and BTW my dog…
Observing when they actually were HURT, didn’t like it, cried, whimper, whined and used that word can “Hurt” you when warning them Against Dangers.
For the little kids, they all were given a day of experiencing…legs bound so they could not walk, eyes covered so they could not see, an arm bound, ears covered….excepting one child who IS profoundly deaf.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Quitethinker you mention what you think about the OT and some of its writers view as being wrong but have been shown in the NT more than once that Jesus and Paul confirms the OT view.

ahhhhh, if only ears would hear! My comments re the OT are not blanket comments, they are specific, however choosing to hear them as blanket statements distorts the intent.
It is evident that Jesus was also specific in his comments re OT matters. Refusing to understand this because it suits ones agenda is the same card religious folk have pulled all through history.

 

[Timtofly]

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Eating did not change what Adam knew. Disobedience placed Adam in a state of both physical and spiritual death. Adam experienced disobedience. Now Adam could not enjoy God's presence, nor eternal life.

Adam was still in the garden when Adam was discovered to have eaten of the tree of good and evil. He was neither, physically or spiritually dead. The curse told Adam was the ground would be cursed, the same ground (outside of the Garden from which Adam was formed).

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Adam did not. Therefore…once Adam passed through the threshold out of the garden, THEN was Adam “spiritually dead”, ie. Separated from God, yet continued physically living.

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Why is it hard to accept we are physically in death, instead of in eternal life? Physically dead is not just "not having a physical body". No one seems to grasp the difference between the body of death and the body of life. 2 Corinthians 5:1 two physical bodies, one of death, and the other of life. Adam lost the physical eternal body of life and was immediately given the physical body of death. His soul physically died, ie changed bodies. The reverse happens to receive eternal life.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

We don't get our old body of death back. We get the physical body Adam had prior to his disobedience.

Salvation was effected From the Beginning…
It was given to men, “not before a physical death”, but given to men WHO physically DIED, believing in God and His Word.
(The same applies to this day).

What occurred when JESUS died on the Cross, was a BETTER TESTAMENT….
That “physically ALIVE men CAN (via Gods Offering and Way), remain physically ALIVE, AND RECEIVE SALVATION THEN, BEFORE their physical Death”.
They Pledge a Covenant with the Lord God of their Belief, of Pledging their body’s LIFE unto God, (when it becomes physically dead), via being “crucified WITH Jesus’ body” and meantime…
Their soul is made saved, via Gods Power
Their spirit is made born again, via Gods Seed
They occupy Christ Jesus’ RISEN BODY…
(Waiting for their own body to die, rise up glorified, FOR their “saved soul and born again body”, to occupy their OWN glorified body.)

A man choosing the option of Jesus’ revealed: Better Testament, has chosen a “guarantee”, to live the rest of their physical life, with the Power of God “with and in them”, to Forever His Power to KEEP them …
From temptations, evil and wickedness of this world with power to convince that man to stop Believing….now impossible, since Gods Power is supreme over all other powers.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

It’s called a man “living sacrifice” and “reasonable service”.

Rom 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Rom 12
[5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Reasonable service, indicates BASIC service.
Thereafter once a man IS “in Christ”, he can do many works to “Glorify God”, and such works ARE a service (not unto Salvation, which he has already received…) Rather are works for which that man SHALL receive “rewards” that will be stored up in Heaven “called treasures”….and rewarded (given) to the man when the Son of man returns. (BTW…those rewards are crowns).

Jesus was there. That is why Adam was now like God. Adam and Jesus both had physical bodies and physical death was experienced.

Every man Ancient to this day, WHO Bodily Died/ Dies IN Belief…WAS SAVED, SHALL BE SAVED.

Every man’s BODY SHALL Die…It is the Belief in his heart (natural spirits truth)…on the day his body dies, that determines if that man will or will not BE Saved.

Choosing an assured Salvation no matter what day a mans body dies; Was Jesus’ assured Offering.
Murderers, thieves, liars, cheats, immorally corrupt, up to the moment of their physical death, can repent, confess true belief, and be forgiven and washed of all unrighteousness and saved.
The FACT is: most people do not know the moment their physical death shall occur…and if not Sanctified, will miss that opportunity…
And WHY Scripture warns an urgency to all men…be prepared (reach out and Take Christ Jesus’ assured offering of Salvation Now).

The Second Birth takes place prior to physical death. The Second Birth assures eternal life.

Difference….
** Living Forgiven, and Gods Power WITH “and” IN you to Keep you ONLY unto Him.
** Living not Forgiven, and Gods Power NOT IN you to Keep you FROM falling for temptations of Evil and wicked powers OF this world.

This does not apply to Adam. Adam had no human nature that was replaced. Adam lost his eternal physical body, and was given a physical body of death, that would return to dust never to be seen again after physical death.

Not true. (Not an others soul, but his own)
Hear Gods Word….God blesses THAT man with Faith.
Believe Gods Word…that is a WORK THAT man does….God blesses THAT man with “blessings” of all kinds of things.
Call on the Lord…Heartfully Repent for having NOT believed….God blesses THAT man with “forgiveness”.
Call on the Lord….Heartfully CONFESS Belief…God blesses THAT man with “soul restoration, ie. saving”
Call on the Lord…Heartfully CHOOSE to give your bodily life unto DEATH, “for your Love of God”….God blesses THAT man with “His SEED, to rebirth that mans natural spirit to a FOREVER Living spirit”.

We are talking about Adam not knowing or experiencing evil, until he disobeyed God. Then Adam experienced evil in his new body of death.

Originally, Separated from God (spiritual death) Because he was sent out of the Garden.
Eventually, Physically died. And Was spiritually saved, as Scripture reveals he was a “son of God”.

There is no Scripture that claims Adam was "saved". This is your human assumption. Adam was a son of God. Then he disobeyed. Adam lost that son of God position to the new state of death. He was no longer a son of God. Adam was not the only son of God. There were many sons of God created on the 6th day.

No and No. Scriptural text.

Then you should have quoted Scripture. "No and No" is still your opinion and not God's Word.

Get your point…however actually the first “sinner” Lucifer, an angel was cast to earth, present on earth, Before mankind, and became the chief influencer, cunning trickster to fool men through lies that appear as being in agreement with God.

You don't know Satan had rebelled prior to being a serpent. Still an assumption.

You are the one claiming Adam did not physically die that instant he disobeyed God. Sounds like a deception from that same serpent.

It appears that you think Adam did not physically die. Paul told us there were two physical bodies. Why not accept what Paul wrote?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

For 4,000 years men lived and die Believing IN God AND HIS WORD, (unknowing Gods Words NAME). And once they bodily Died IN Belief, they were SAVED.

No man can BECOME saved, “UNTIL” they BeLIEVE….AND their BODY is “accounted” DEAD…
Physically….or via a better testament…ie Bodily crucified with Christ.

It’s the understanding OF DEATH…Nothing can be “Born…….AGAIN”….without a DEATH of the OLD.

1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Quickened…..ie Born Again.

God Bless,
Taken

Yes, Adam had to physically die, in order to be in a state that needed salvation. If he still had that original body, he would still be alive today. If he was left in the Garden, his physical body of death could have remained nourished from the tree of life. The wages of sin, disobedience, is death, not an eternal life physically in a state of death. The souls in sheol have neither a physical body nor a spirit. They remain dead unless blessed with the first resurrection back to eternal life.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

What she was expressly told NOT to do…
She CHOSE to do…look, decide it was good, herself took, herself ate.

True, she likely did not Understand “death”, but did understand DO NOT.

Sort or like a little child being told not to go into the street a car might kill them. Likely they do not know what Kill means, and maybe they go into the street are hit, not killed, still live, but are crippled, which is also not an understanding a child can understand that feeling, but can see others who are crippled, struggling.

I taught my little children, and BTW my dog…
Observing when they actually were HURT, didn’t like it, cried, whimper, whined and used that word can “Hurt” you when warning them Against Dangers.
For the little kids, they all were given a day of experiencing…legs bound so they could not walk, eyes covered so they could not see, an arm bound, ears covered….excepting one child who IS profoundly deaf.

Glory to God,
Taken

How do they understand elective choice when they did not possess knowledge or right and wrong?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Wrong theology. Right and wrong is not equal to good and evil. Did they understand good, or is that impossible without knowing evil? Right and wrong are moral terms or decisions. One can experience evil and still not understand right and wrong.

There was not an age of being innocent. How can living in obedience be equated with not being guilty of a crime? Was Eve "not guilty" of Adam eating the fruit? There was no guilt, nor crime, nor sin, nor death, period. It was the age of being a son of God with all the benefits and entitlement of being like God in every way except God letting Satan rebel. Satan's rebellion was the only known evil in the entire creation. Satan did not even know nor understand death. We are not even told if the angels rebelled before or after Adam disobeyed. But he seemed very curious, as he was the one who instigated events to allow that knowledge to be known. Was Satan innocent as well because he had no knowledge of death either? Being innocent would apply to both angels and sons of God. Except innocent implies some were guilty while others were not. What about evil was creation not guilty about, if evil itself was unknown.

Even Satan's rebellion was not as evil as the result that Adam's disobedience would cause to creation. People use the word innocent as lacking knowledge. That may be true after sin was in the world.

It can not be true prior to the existence of something. Was God innocent as well? Does foreknowledge count, or only knowledge to that point in creation? What is the reality of lacking knowledge of something that does not even exist except in the name of a tree?

Why not just state it was a dispensation prior to sin? It cannot be defined by one word. Do you think they lacked the knowledge of good, or just the dynamic between good and evil?

Can we even recognize the length of this dispensation?

You were in error the moment you posited the false idea that knowledge of right and wrong are not moral precepts.

 

[Jack]

Well of course many Jews believed in Jesus and are saved Paul himself was a Jew and so were all of the disciples and most of the first church.

I could also post scriptures showing the Jews who rejected Jesus and called for His death. The scriptures also show that some of them claimed that they have no king but Cesar and let Jesus death be on them and their children but that doesn't mean that all of Israel are evil.

The point is that many Jews were Johns description of the AC but many of them were Jesus believing saints also we are to pray that many more come to know Jesus in the future.

But what I'm showing from scripture is that true all Israel is the church made up of both Jew and Gentile.

When Paul said that all Israel will be saved he also quoted Isiah

Romans 11:26-27​

​

​

26 and in this way[a] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[b] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[c]

“The deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion; (national Israel)
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.(spiritual Israel)
27 And this is[b] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[c]

Paul and Isiah used two different descriptive name for Israel for a reason

Some here say or imply that God is done with Israel. Totally wrong!

 

[covenantee]

Some here say or imply that God is done with Israel. Totally wrong!

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Timtofly]

You were in error the moment you posited the false idea that knowledge of right and wrong are not moral precepts.

That is not what I posted, but ok?

Wrong theology. Right and wrong is not equal to good and evil. Did they understand good, or is that impossible without knowing evil? Right and wrong are moral terms or decisions. One can experience evil and still not understand right and wrong.

Knowledge of right and wrong are moral precepts. The name of the tree is not the knowledge of right and wrong.

What is the name of the tree?

 

[Jack]

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Are you a Gentile?

 

[covenantee]

Are you a Gentile?

I'm a Christian. And you?

 

[Jack]

I'm a Christian. And you?

Are you a Gentile? Do you even know? You're not Israel!

 

[covenantee]

Are you a Gentile? Do you even know? You're not Israel!

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Are you in Christ Jesus?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

That is not what I posted, but ok?

That is what you posted.

Knowledge of right and wrong are moral precepts. The name of the tree is not the knowledge of right and wrong.

What is the name of the tree?