Amillennialism vs premillennialism ......how & why ppl believe different.

[Eternally Grateful]

IMO it's for all the saints, since for example the Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to give to his churches (Rev.1:1) but whether it's meant to be or not, it's also a test to see where our priorities lie with how we will talk to and treat one another. I have failed too, but at least I know that and seek to correct it between myself and my Savior. IMO prophecy and understanding the full counsel of God is a serious business and we are all fallible but sometimes it seems discussing it is the past-time of some and merely like a hobby.

I think of the prophecies of Jesus when he was here.

1. He would heal the blind, the sick and the lamb
2. He would arrive 69 weeks after the command to restore jerusalem. And when he arrived, How he told Jerusalem they should have known the time of his coming, but now it is hidden from them
3. I think of the prophesy that told of his crucifixion and all that would happen.
4. I think of the time he was on the cross. And he screamed “my God my God” how the people would remember the words in psalms.
5. I think of the prophets who said Jesus would die and then rise again
6. I think of How Jesus went through the OT prophets and told those 2 men walking down the road all that would happen. And they believed.

I think of Daniel. He remembers the prophet said they would be slaves for 70 years. And at the end of that 70 Years. Daniel prayed the prayer of Daniel 9, confessing the sins of himself. His people and their fathers, the prayer for which Gabriel was sent and gave the prophecy of the 70 weeks concerning the nation of Israel.

I agree, I think prophecy is for saints. it confirms and strengthens our faith. But I believe even more important it is for the people of that time who may be searching, and see these things God said would happen thousands of years ago. And they are coming true. Many people came to Christ 2000 years ago. and many more will come to him in the future when these events start to take place.

As God said, I tell you these things so you know when they happen, I am the one true God.

I also think prophecy can be controversial. I have to wonder what the people before Christ’s first advent thought? Of course, Like the woman at the well said, We know the messiah is coming, and when he comes he will do things.. We can sort of know. They were looking for specific events. And those who did not want to see a new king, blew those events of as being from Satan or after he rose Lazarus front he dead, knowing they needed to take him out.

Future prophecy is somethign where we look for events. We can guess what or when they will be, or what it will look like. But we will not know until they start to take place..

But one warning I think we need to know is if they have not happened yet. We shoudl not try to make things up or make a parable of them and say they are spiritually fulfilled, in my view. That defeats the purpose of prophecy

 

[rwb]

Personally I see in everything that the Revelation says from chapter 4 to the close of chapter 19, signs that all of it (chapters 4 to 19) is talking about the final 42 months before the return of Christ (and only about that).

But I also believe that the last days began when Messiah had come, because it's the Messiah's Kingdom, which is here now (in a spiritual sense) but is coming (in a literal sense). So "in these last days" God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1:1). The New Testament doesn't call the final 42 months of this Age "the last days of the last days" but that's how I see it.

I see Joel chapters 2 and 3 as referring to Judah and Jerusalem vs. the nations at the beginning of, and the close of this Age.

Joel 2:1-11 (to me) refers to Rome's attack on Jerusalem in AD70. It was "the Day of the LORD", when Judah was being punished at the hands of the armies of Rome. They were led away captive until the times of the nations is fulfilled (Luke 21:24).

Joel chapter 3 I believe is talking about the judgment of the nations in the Kidron Valley (the Valley of Jehoshaphat) at the close of this Age because of what they have done to Judah (the Jews) and Jerusalem. Wickedness is wickedness, and God will punish the evil and wickedness of the nations (who have also dealt evilly and treacherously with the Jews), in the Kidron Valley.

This is not because I see Jews who do not believe in Jesus as God's chosen nation (any more than I see Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus as God's chosen nation), but because God is just, therefore what God is going to do, He will do not for Israel's sake, but for His holy name's sake (Ezekiel 36:22).

So like you, I have Joel chapter 3 linked to the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29.

But I do not have anything linked to Daniel 9:27. I believe both Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 12:1-11 were fulfilled in the 1st century.​

The problem I find with this way of applying many things to Israel of Old, is how the focus is on Israel when Christ sent His Spirit that they might know He had already come in the Kingdom of God, and instead of focusing on the physical nation, the focus for His disciples should be about building the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God that had come and is within you.

The prophecy found in Joel 2 begins with Joel announcing the coming day of the LORD that was nigh (approaching) at hand. His prophecy can only be understood when we realize it is prophecy that would come when Christ came to earth a man and will not be finished until the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given the Church on earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God through proclaiming the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit shall be no longer (Rev 10).

Joel 2:1-2 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

 

[Zao is life]

I think of the prophecies of Jesus when he was here.

1. He would heal the blind, the sick and the lamb
2. He would arrive 69 weeks after the command to restore jerusalem. And when he arrived, How he told Jerusalem they should have known the time of his coming, but now it is hidden from them
3. I think of the prophesy that told of his crucifixion and all that would happen.
4. I think of the time he was on the cross. And he screamed “my God my God” how the people would remember the words in psalms.
5. I think of the prophets who said Jesus would die and then rise again
6. I think of How Jesus went through the OT prophets and told those 2 men walking down the road all that would happen. And they believed.

I think of Daniel. He remembers the prophet said they would be slaves for 70 years. And at the end of that 70 Years. Daniel prayed the prayer of Daniel 9, confessing the sins of himself. His people and their fathers, the prayer for which Gabriel was sent and gave the prophecy of the 70 weeks concerning the nation of Israel.

I agree, I think prophecy is for saints. it confirms and strengthens our faith. But I believe even more important it is for the people of that time who may be searching, and see these things God said would happen thousands of years ago. And they are coming true. Many people came to Christ 2000 years ago. and many more will come to him in the future when these events start to take place.

As God said, I tell you these things so you know when they happen, I am the one true God.

I also think prophecy can be controversial. I have to wonder what the people before Christ’s first advent thought? Of course, Like the woman at the well said, We know the messiah is coming, and when he comes he will do things.. We can sort of know. They were looking for specific events. And those who did not want to see a new king, blew those events of as being from Satan or after he rose Lazarus front he dead, knowing they needed to take him out.

Future prophecy is somethign where we look for events. We can guess what or when they will be, or what it will look like. But we will not know until they start to take place..

But one warning I think we need to know is if they have not happened yet. We shoudl not try to make things up or make a parable of them and say they are spiritually fulfilled, in my view. That defeats the purpose of prophecy

I agree 100% with everything you say above, and it's also noticeable - actually more than noticeable - noteworthy - how some prophecy or aspects of a prophecy is only understood once it has already been fulfilled, as per some of the examples you gave above.

That's why if I don't know the answers to questions I have, then I leave it up to God, because if I ask Him to give me understanding of His Word, it includes His whole Word, and I know that He will provide only what is in His will to have me understand, or know about.

So even though I don't mind that many people will and do disagree with me on this, I do believe that Revelation chapters 4 to 19 are referring to the 42 months leading up to the return of Christ - but I don't "have to" know whether the 8th king of Revelation 17 is a man or a kingdom, nor do I have to know the identity of the two witnesses, etc etc

and even when I speculate in my own mind, I'm aware that I'm just speculating, and I'm careful not to believe my own speculation.

I just accept that what I understand, I understand, and what I don't, I don't; and I accept that many will tell me that what I think I understand, I don't understand (because it's different to what they understand), and it's always possible (because I'm human and fallible) that one or two of those "many" who tell me that I don't understand what I think I understand, may be right.

But it doesn't matter to me, because Jesus said we are to love one another, and we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and the apostle taught us that the will of God for us is our sanctification, and in none of those things that we should be preoccupied with, is there place for arguing with one another about the future, or the prophetic Word of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You could not be more wrong on that EG. The Old Covenant nation was given the knowledge of a Messiah/Redeemer that would come to save them. Those of faith believed the Law that pointed them to the Messiah, and the Prophets who foretell His coming. Yes, I agree salvation has always been for both Jew and Gentile, but for a Gentile of Old to be saved they had to convert to Judaism and be obedient to God's commands and the Old Covenant Law. The nation of Israel of Old was the representation of the Church as She existed on earth then. The Gospel had been preached of Old to Israel as well as to Gentile nations after the first advent of Christ.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Romans 10:18-21 (KJV) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Why did you leave passages out?

Yes, God promised abraham, In him shall all nations be blessed. Thats the gospel. Thats jew and gentile being one. Thats where there is no different.

But God promised one seed a promise that he called eternal.

1. That he would give them land
2. That he would be their God
3. That he would protect them
4. That even if they sin, He will punish them, But he will still keep his promise to them, Even if they are scattered b cause of their sin (lev 26) he will not forget his promise to their fathers. And if they repent. he will restore them.

Thats the promise I am talking about. Not the salvation promise. Salvation has always been available to jew and gentile alike. Jonah was sent to preach to a gentile nation. And they repented.

You can not leave parts of scripture out. Like as if they were never there.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I know the feeling! The other day I visited with a neurologist, and he told me that as we age our brain shrinks! I laughed and said NOW I get it! LOL

Much love!

Oh how I know that!! Lol

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For sure the wrinkles we don't use in our brains atrophy !

Amen,

Still suffering from t he fall.. Oh when God restores all things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree 100% with everything you say above, and it's also noticeable - actually more than noticeable - noteworthy - how some prophecy or aspects of a prophecy is only understood once it has already been fulfilled, as per some of the examples you gave above.

That's why if I don't know the answers to questions I have, then I leave it up to God, because if I ask Him to give me understanding of His Word, it includes His whole Word, and I know that He will provide only what is in His will to have me understand, or know about.

So even though I don't mind that many people will and do disagree with me on this, I do believe that Revelation chapters 4 to 19 are referring to the 42 months leading up to the return of Christ - but I don't "have to" know whether the 8th king of Revelation 17 is a man or a kingdom, nor do I have to know the identity of the two witnesses, etc etc

and even when I speculate in my own mind, I'm aware that I'm just speculating, and I'm careful not to believe my own speculation.

I just accept that what I understand, I understand, and what I don't, I don't; and I accept that many will tell me that what I think I understand, I don't understand (because it's different to what they understand), and it's always possible (because I'm human and fallible) that one or two of those "many" who tell me that I don't understand what I think I understand, may be right.

But it doesn't matter to me, because Jesus said we are to love one another, and we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and the apostle taught us that the will of God for us is our sanctification, and in none of those things that we should be preoccupied with, is there place for arguing with one another about the future, or the prophetic Word of God.

Amen,

I think of the example of the statue of Nebachadnezar.. He spoke in symbols. The head of gold etc.

But then in Gods answer, he said YOU are that head of Gold

We can interpret that the first part was Babylon. And go down and see the rest..

Same with his beasts in chapter 7. We can see the symbols represented literal kingdoms.

But we can also see in many of these that the 4th kingdom was different. Not only this. But some things spoken of the 4th kingdom have not yet occured..

So will it be restored? What will it look like? Who will be the leader? How will he come to power?

We can only guess of these things today.. But when these things happen. The whole world will know. This is what God meant. I see it. God once again is proved right, and people will truth to God..

 

[rwb]

Why did you leave passages out?

Yes, God promised abraham, In him shall all nations be blessed. Thats the gospel. Thats jew and gentile being one. Thats where there is no different.

But God promised one seed a promise that he called eternal.

1. That he would give them land
2. That he would be their God
3. That he would protect them
4. That even if they sin, He will punish them, But he will still keep his promise to them, Even if they are scattered b cause of their sin (lev 26) he will not forget his promise to their fathers. And if they repent. he will restore them.

Thats the promise I am talking about. Not the salvation promise. Salvation has always been available to jew and gentile alike. Jonah was sent to preach to a gentile nation. And they repented.

You can not leave parts of scripture out. Like as if they were never there.

The promise for them to inherit the land of Cannan was fulfilled through Joshua. He led them into the promised land, and God gave them ALL that He promised and drove out their enemies. If Israel had kept the Covenant promise they made to be faithful to God alone and keep His commandments, not worshipping the idols and gods of the nations they drove out of the land they would have kept the land of Cannan, the promised land forever. BUT, they did not so God also kept His promise to drive them out of the promised land, and to give that land to others.

Even though the physical land of Cannan is lost to them forever, in Christ, according to grace through faith they, like all who are of faith in Christ can be blessed to receive not only the land of Cannan, but the whole new earth if they do not continue in unbelief. The whole earth has and not just one small part of it, is promised to all who are of faith, and that is that promise that both Israel in unbelief, also Gentiles in unbelief can claim as their own if they turn to Christ in repentance, believing in Him.

Joshua 23:14-16 (KJV) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The promise for them to inherit the land of Cannan was fulfilled through Joshua.

that is when they first possessed the land

The promise does not stop because he said it would be their land forever. He said it was an everlasting possession

He gave lev 26 as a warning if what would happen if they disobeyed. Up to and including their land taken their city and holy places destroyed and them scattered

But even then he said he will not forget them or his promise to their fathers. That’s why there has always been a remnant. Because God keeps his promises

He said if they repent he will remember the land the promise to the fathers and he will restore them

Non of this has anything to do with the church or gentiles. It is Gods promise to Abraham Isaac Jacob and his 12 sons and all their descendent

 

[rwb]

that is when they first possessed the land

The promise does not stop because he said it would be their land forever. He said it was an everlasting possession

He gave lev 26 as a warning if what would happen if they disobeyed. Up to and including their land taken their city and holy places destroyed and them scattered

But even then he said he will not forget them or his promise to their fathers. That’s why there has always been a remnant. Because God keeps his promises

He said if they repent he will remember the land the promise to the fathers and he will restore them

Non of this has anything to do with the church or gentiles. It is Gods promise to Abraham Isaac Jacob and his 12 sons and all their descendent

Did you read Joshua? The reason God repeatedly says that Israel will NEVER be altogether forsaken is because throughout history Israel has always had a remnant that would be saved. He blessed them and repeatedly sent them prophets with the Law to warn them, because the remnant to be saved both of Old and to come would come through the Seed (Christ) that would come from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Had not a remnant from Israel been preserved by God the promised Messiah would not be born. So the remnant of Israel was NEVER forsaken by God, He preserved them to the coming of the Lord. Then when Christ came and Israel rejected Him and gave Him over to be crucified, Christ declared to them "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." But even then in the days of the Apostle Paul there was from Israel a remnant saved according to election of grace.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I agree 100% with everything you say above, and it's also noticeable - actually more than noticeable - noteworthy - how some prophecy or aspects of a prophecy is only understood once it has already been fulfilled, as per some of the examples you gave above.

That's why if I don't know the answers to questions I have, then I leave it up to God, because if I ask Him to give me understanding of His Word, it includes His whole Word, and I know that He will provide only what is in His will to have me understand, or know about.

So even though I don't mind that many people will and do disagree with me on this, I do believe that Revelation chapters 4 to 19 are referring to the 42 months leading up to the return of Christ - but I don't "have to" know whether the 8th king of Revelation 17 is a man or a kingdom, nor do I have to know the identity of the two witnesses, etc etc

and even when I speculate in my own mind, I'm aware that I'm just speculating, and I'm careful not to believe my own speculation.

I just accept that what I understand, I understand, and what I don't, I don't; and I accept that many will tell me that what I think I understand, I don't understand (because it's different to what they understand), and it's always possible (because I'm human and fallible) that one or two of those "many" who tell me that I don't understand what I think I understand, may be right.

But it doesn't matter to me, because Jesus said we are to love one another, and we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and the apostle taught us that the will of God for us is our sanctification, and in none of those things that we should be preoccupied with, is there place for arguing with one another about the future, or the prophetic Word of God.

Oh that we all would come to this conclusion.
Outside the literal written words even under the teaching of the Spirit, we sometimes speculate in our understanding.

3 Strong commands were given of Jesus to us that encompass all, love God, love your neighbor and love the fellowship of faith !

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did you read Joshua? The reason God repeatedly says that Israel will NEVER be altogether forsaken is because throughout history Israel has always had a remnant that would be saved. He blessed them and repeatedly sent them prophets with the Law to warn them, because the remnant to be saved both of Old and to come would come through the Seed (Christ) that would come from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Had not a remnant from Israel been preserved by God the promised Messiah would not be born. So the remnant of Israel was NEVER forsaken by God, He preserved them to the coming of the Lord. Then when Christ came and Israel rejected Him and gave Him over to be crucified, Christ declared to them "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." But even then in the days of the Apostle Paul there was from Israel a remnant saved according to election of grace.

The promise was to the fathers. And the promise was forever.

He kept a remnant even after christ came and went (romans 11) because he keeps his promises.

To me this is deeper than AD 70. Deeper than will there be a tribulation. Deeper than is there a rapture. And deeper than when Christ is or will reign..

I was thinking of this today. And I hope we can be honest and open. I thought of an example to help understand what i see.

You see there was this great righteous king. He had many nation states within this kingdom. But they rebelled. The righteous king chose one of these nations. And he said I am going to give you this special gift. i give it not only to you. But all your generations after you in all their years. I will also bring forth one of your seed, who will make peace between all my nation states and restor them to me.

After many years. he gives this special gift to them. This gift gives them peace. It also gives them everything they need. After he gave it to them, He gave them a set of laws. And he said this is how I want you to act.. In this law. He gives them a warning. as long as you obey me and follow these laws. This gift will bless you. But if you turn from me, I will punish you. And if you still disobay I will punish you seven times more, plus I will do this He repeats this 7 times. On the 7th punishment, He wipes out their cities. He takes their gift from them, and he will give it to someone else.

However, He will not forget the promise he made to the fathers. If they repent, if they confess their sins and the sins of the fathers, He will remember the promise and he will give it back.

Now all the world knows of this king and this promise.

If, After the righteous king removes the gift because of their sins, like he said he Would. but then he says after he takes that gift and does what he said, he will no longer remember his promise. he will not longer honor his promise no matter what.

What does the world think, What does the nation think?

Is this king really righteous?
Did he not break his promise?
Can this king be trusted?

If he will not keep his promise to them, why should he keep his promise to anyone?

This is what is at stake in my view. The honor and integrity of our God is what is in question here.

 

[rwb]

Is this king really righteous?
Did he not break his promise?
Can this king be trusted?

If he will not keep his promise to them, why should he keep his promise to anyone?

Sincerely trying not to be overly harsh EG, what you've written IMO sounds more like wishful thinking than biblical truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sincerely trying not to be overly harsh EG, what you've written IMO sounds more like wishful thinking than biblical truth.

Read Genesis 12, 15 and 17

Its the same story.

God made a promise.

He fulfilled that promise by giving his people that gift 400 Years later

He then gave them the law

In the law (lev 26) he told them if they followed him and obeyed his commands they would live in peace. He would bless them, and their land would produce (vs 1 - 13)

then he told them if they did not obey him, he would punish them, If they still did not. He would punish them seven times more,

18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

He did this more times (vs 21, vs 24, vs 28)

The final time, He said he would destroy their cities, their high places. And scatter them

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

But after all this, He said if they confessed their sins and the sins of their fathers, he would remember the land, he will remember the covenant we are discussing, the covenant with abraham Isaac and Jacob, For he is a God who keeps his promises

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

So my example is exactly what the word says, I was hoping you would read the word and be open.

again, If vs 40 - 41 is not applicable anymore. God is done with them wither they repent or not.

1. Is God a Righteous God?
2. Does God keep his promises?
3. Can God be trusted?

My answer is no on all three.

 

[rwb]

Read Genesis 12, 15 and 17

Its the same story.

God made a promise.

He fulfilled that promise by giving his people that gift 400 Years later

He then gave them the law

In the law (lev 26) he told them if they followed him and obeyed his commands they would live in peace. He would bless them, and their land would produce (vs 1 - 13)

then he told them if they did not obey him, he would punish them, If they still did not. He would punish them seven times more,

18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

He did this more times (vs 21, vs 24, vs 28)

The final time, He said he would destroy their cities, their high places. And scatter them

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

But after all this, He said if they confessed their sins and the sins of their fathers, he would remember the land, he will remember the covenant we are discussing, the covenant with abraham Isaac and Jacob, For he is a God who keeps his promises

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

So my example is exactly what the word says, I was hoping you would read the word and be open.

again, If vs 40 - 41 is not applicable anymore. God is done with them wither they repent or not.

1. Is God a Righteous God?
2. Does God keep his promises?
3. Can God be trusted?

My answer is no on all three.

EG, I don't doubt for a moment that you would hope I would read the Word and be open, I too feel the same way. But the problem that you and I will never resolve is our opposing view of biblical eschatology. You read and understand Scripture from the Dispensational Premillennial POV, and I read and understand Scripture from the Historical Amillennial POV. You believe God still looks at the nation of Israel as though they are or shall again represent the Kingdom of God on this earth for one thousand years after Christ returns. From my POV I believe the nation of Israel of Old, God chose to represent His Kingdom on this earth, and to give physical birth to His Son, had the Kingdom of God taken from them when Christ came because they, less the elect remnant, turned away from God and became of the world, and of their father, the Devil.

But this is the way it was ordained by God to be. Because through Israel of Old the Son of God would be born, and through Him the universal Church on earth became the representation of the [spiritual] Kingdom of God, with His disciples being sent unto all the nations of the world with the message of the Kingdom of God, the Gospel. Now in Christ all who belong to the spiritual Kingdom of God are called the "Israel of God" whether Jew or Gentile. All the promises to Israel of Old that are never ending were always for only the "Israel of God." His everlasting promises to His true Israel, whether Jew or Gentile is that we shall inherit the whole new earth.

Since Christ has come, people of all races, kindreds, tribes and nations belong to the "Israel of God" when they are born again of the Spirit from Christ. That includes Jews, they too can still be grafted back in with the faithful elect remnant IF they do not remain in unbelief and turn to Christ to be saved. And the promised inheritance is not about receiving a small portion of the earth in the land of Cannan, like they had of Old. The promise to all who are of the Israel of God, all people of faith is that we shall inherit the whole new earth immortal & incorruptible. Anyone waiting and hoping for Israel to once again be restored to the promised land of Old are hoping for something that will last only for one thousand years. It makes no sense to hope that God will once again restore the nation of Israel to a land that in the end is not lasting because this earth and everything on it shall be utterly destroyed by the wrath of God when He sends down fire from heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, I don't doubt for a moment that you would hope I would read the Word and be open, I too feel the same way. But the problem that you and I will never resolve is our opposing view of biblical eschatology. You read and understand Scripture from the Dispensational Premillennial POV, and I read and understand Scripture from the Historical Amillennial POV. You believe God still looks at the nation of Israel as though they are or shall again represent the Kingdom of God on this earth for one thousand years after Christ returns. From my POV I believe the nation of Israel of Old, God chose to represent His Kingdom on this earth, and to give physical birth to His Son, had the Kingdom of God taken from them when Christ came because they, less the elect remnant, turned away from God and became of the world, and of their father, the Devil.

But this is the way it was ordained by God to be. Because through Israel of Old the Son of God would be born, and through Him the universal Church on earth became the representation of the [spiritual] Kingdom of God, with His disciples being sent unto all the nations of the world with the message of the Kingdom of God, the Gospel. Now in Christ all who belong to the spiritual Kingdom of God are called the "Israel of God" whether Jew or Gentile. All the promises to Israel of Old that are never ending were always for only the "Israel of God." His everlasting promises to His true Israel, whether Jew or Gentile is that we shall inherit the whole new earth.

Since Christ has come, people of all races, kindreds, tribes and nations belong to the "Israel of God" when they are born again of the Spirit from Christ. That includes Jews, they too can still be grafted back in with the faithful elect remnant IF they do not remain in unbelief and turn to Christ to be saved. And the promised inheritance is not about receiving a small portion of the earth in the land of Cannan, like they had of Old. The promise to all who are of the Israel of God, all people of faith is that we shall inherit the whole new earth immortal & incorruptible. Anyone waiting and hoping for Israel to once again be restored to the promised land of Old are hoping for something that will last only for one thousand years. It makes no sense to hope that God will once again restore the nation of Israel to a land that in the end is not lasting because this earth and everything on it shall be utterly destroyed by the wrath of God when He sends down fire from heaven.

I would hope we would set out views aside and just look to the word.

I think the problem is we look at what we were taught. And can only see that.. I know I can have this issue. And did have it in a deep way most of my life. I could not look at anything else.

Anyway, your right..

Again I will just say

Salvation will and always has been to all nations..

The promise of land was only given to one nation.

The difference between amil and pre-mil is one sees the difference. The other sees them as the same

 

[rwb]

I would hope we would set out views aside and just look to the word.

I think the problem is we look at what we were taught. And can only see that.. I know I can have this issue. And did have it in a deep way most of my life. I could not look at anything else.

Anyway, your right..

Again I will just say

Salvation will and always has been to all nations..

The promise of land was only given to one nation.

The difference between amil and pre-mil is one sees the difference. The other sees them as the same

When I first became a Christian I too was taught the doctrine you now believe. One day I was convicted of the need to search and study the Word of God for myself. That's when I began to notice contradictions and inconsistencies is what I had been taught to believe. I asked my Pastor and Elders who taught me to explain the questions I began to have, the answer I got was almost always the same, "there are some things in the Bible that we are not meant to know." When I learned from my own study of the Bible the same Pastor and Elders said I had become a Calvinist, and was following false doctrine of Amillennialism, long before I had ever heard of these. I left that Church and began to hear biblical doctrine that came from Scripture and was not read into the Bible. Dispensational Premillennialism and Historical Amillennialism have nothing in common. I will never again return to doctrine that accepts contradiction and inconsistencies without questioning what it means if the Bible cannot be consistent and contradicts itself!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When I first became a Christian I too was taught the doctrine you now believe. One day I was convicted of the need to search and study the Word of God for myself. That's when I began to notice contradictions and inconsistencies is what I had been taught to believe. I asked my Pastor and Elders who taught me to explain the questions I began to have, the answer I got was almost always the same, "there are some things in the Bible that we are not meant to know." When I learned from my own study of the Bible the same Pastor and Elders said I had become a Calvinist, and was following false doctrine of Amillennialism, long before I had ever heard of these. I left that Church and began to hear biblical doctrine that came from Scripture and was not read into the Bible. Dispensational Premillennialism and Historical Amillennialism have nothing in common. I will never again return to doctrine that accepts contradiction and inconsistencies without questioning what it means if the Bible cannot be consistent and contradicts itself!

I think that when we try to follow doctrines. We get stuck in thinking that they all believe the same things.

I know many people who teach that dispensationalism causes a lot of contradictions. And I agree. Some groups who believe this do. Some say israel will return to being saved by the law in the tribulation period. This is not true. Some believe God saved people different ways in different dispensations. This also is not true

Dispensationalism in its purest form is an attempt to take the history of mankind, and place them in a category in a means to help us understand history better. And attempt to help us understand what we think the future will look like. Nothing more nothing less

Thats why i just want to look at the word not doctrines. When we are stuck in doctrines or belief systems, we are trapped in the bounds of whatever we believe that doctrine holds.

Case in point here.

Jesus gave them the land forever. (That can not be disputed)

Jesus gave them that land when Joshua went in (that also can not be disputed)

Jesus gave them the law. And said if you obey, I will bless you. But if you turn, i will curse you, up to and including removing from your land (this also can not be disputed, it actually occured 3 times, Once with Assyria took the northern kingdom. And twice to Judah when babylon took them, and finally when Rome destroyed them in 70 AD) In fact, if you read Daniel 9. Daniel is confessing the sins of the people and their fathers in accordance with lev 26, and confessing that God did just what he promised, again in lev 26. This is what Caused God to send Gabriel to daniel and answer daniels prayer (another hotly debated passage)

this shows, or should show. That it is about land. Not salvation. it never was about salvation of a jew or a gentile.

The one thing we must see, is that if God kept the promise of what he would do if they disobeyed. Then would not God do what he promised if they repented?

This is the part that bothers me,

We all agree, God punished them just as he said he would

But then, many say even if they repent. God will nt do what he promised he would. He is done with them.

To me this reflects on Gods character, and like I said. if God will not keep his promise to them, I have no assurance God will keep his promise to me. I should be living in fear every day of my life that I will mess up so bad that God will say I know I promised you would never die. But I take that back, You will go to hell..

The other aspects of Gods character.

God knew everything israel would ever do. How do we know? The prophecies God told us about them centuries before they did those things.

So when God said, I give you and your descendents this land forever. He said it KNOWING they would rebel and not follow him.Knowing he would take it and give it to the gentiles for a time because of their sin. But he promised it anyway

Just like me, When he gave me the promise of salvation and the seal of the spirit. He did it knowing I would walk away for 5 years as a prodigals son, Knowing every sin I would commit. Knowing every error I ever made. Yet he saved me anyway\

Adam did not surprise God when he sinned, He knew it and had a plan

Israel did not surprise God when they sinned, God knew it and had a plan

I do not suprise God when I sin, He know it and provided a way.

anyway,

 

[rwb]

Jesus gave them the land forever. (That can not be disputed)

They turned away from God, broke His Covenant and worshipped other gods and idols; therefore, they forfeit the promised land, exactly as God warned they would. We cannot cling to promises from God that come with both blessing and cursing, then say God is not faithful to His promises. The fact that cannot be disputed is that God kept His promise to them both when He gave them the land and when they were driven from the land of promise. The promise was only FOREVER IF they remained faithful unto God and none other gods and idols.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They turned away from God, broke His Covenant and worshipped other gods and idols; therefore, they forfeit the promised land, exactly as God warned they would.

They forfeited USE of the land. Not the land itself. Once again, God said if they repented. He would remember his promise as I showed you in lev 26

We cannot cling to promises from God that come with both blessing and cursing, then say God is not faithful to His promises. The fact that cannot be disputed is that God kept His promise to them both when He gave them the land and when they were driven from the land of promise. The promise was only FOREVER IF they remained faithful unto God and none other gods and idols.

Your placing a condition on it that was

1. Not given when he gave it to them
2. Refuted by Lev 26 when he said AFTER he removed them, If they repented. he would remember the land.

anyway. Can you show me why you think premillennialism has contradictions and inconsistencies.