Amillennialism vs premillennialism ......how & why ppl believe different.

[marks]

I believe that "last days" is the same time that began to be fulfilled with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and will not be finished until the seventh trumpet begins to sound. It's the beginning of the fulfillment of the Prophet Joel, who says "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh". The last days cannot be limited to the first century, because the Spirit of Christ is still be poured out, and much of Joel's prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. Doesn't that stretch the last days to the seventh trumpet sounding that time shall be no longer?

Joel's prophecy as quoted by Peter seems to me to stretch to the 6th seal,

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Can you prove through the Scripture that both Timothy and Peter are future last days? Why do you believe the writer to the Hebrews last days is only for his contemporaries?

Much love!

I'm more just looking at the wording used in the passages. Peter and Timothy wrote of things that would come (future) in the last days.

Peter's wording is literally, Scoffers shall be coming upon the last of the days. Timothy wrote, "in the last days shall be being present . . ."

My point in saying this is that Peter quotes Joel in a way that appears to make "last days" be from that day to the day the 6th seal is opened, while in his letter he wrote of a last days that was yet future to him. Whether it's future to us now is a different question.

Here's another,

John 6:39-40 KJV
39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I think this relates to Daniel,

Daniel 12:9-13 KJV
9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

I think the last day upon which these will be raised is the 1335th day, the day in which Daniel, it was promised, would stand in his inheritance, that is, his allotment.

But really, I like to cover all the passages that might relate, and then start forming conclusions. Generally I find by that time the message seems clear.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, using what I call "loaded language" can trigger negative responses, resulting in poor discussion as it goes on that way.

Much love!

It's also a test to see how much self-control we have. If only I always passed the test!

 

[marks]

It's also a test to see how much self-control we have. If only I always passed the test!

But you are closer to the finish line now than you were before. Having awareness and determination, isn't that the biggest part of the battle, particularly considering the Holy Spirit empowers us to love?

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

I believe that "last days" is the same time that began to be fulfilled with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and will not be finished until the seventh trumpet begins to sound. It's the beginning of the fulfillment of the Prophet Joel, who says "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh". The last days cannot be limited to the first century, because the Spirit of Christ is still be poured out, and much of Joel's prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. Doesn't that stretch the last days to the seventh trumpet sounding that time shall be no longer?

I agree with you on the last days because as it is written.

1 After God spoke long ago in various portions and in various ways to our ancestors through the prophets,
2 in these last days he has spoken to us in a son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.
3 The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word, and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

I also don't believe (as some do) that the last days mentioned in the above verses = AD 30 to AD 70, but AD 30 till the 7th trumpet, as you do.

You never addressed the post above or below to me and I would not want to answer it because the words "can you prove through the scripture" I would take up as condescending, if it were me you were talking to.

A better way to put it IMO would go something like, "Can you elaborate on why you believe that .."

Can you prove through the Scripture that both Timothy and Peter are future last days? Why do you believe the writer to the Hebrews last days is only for his contemporaries?

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

But you are closer to the finish line now than you were before. Having awareness and determination, isn't that the biggest part of the battle, particularly considering the Holy Spirit empowers us to love?

Much love!

Thank you for that word of encouragement. First smile on my face staring at these boards today.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

It's also a test to see how much self-control we have. If only I always passed the test!

But you are closer to the finish line now than you were before. Having awareness and determination, isn't that the biggest part of the battle, particularly considering the Holy Spirit empowers us to love?

Much love!

Oh how pleasant it is when brethren dwell together in unity.

This is a beautiful form of encouragement and edification!

Thank you both!

 

[rwb]

Joel's prophecy as quoted by Peter seems to me to stretch to the 6th seal,

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

I believe Joel's prophecy begins at Pentecost and shall end with the great and notable day of the Lord's return. According to vs 21 the timing is when whosoever from every nation of the world shall call on the name of the Lord to be saved. This is IMO the whole Gospel age of grace.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

I wonder if you are confusing the sixth seal with the sounding of the seventh trumpet?

I believe Rev 4-6 is a continuous vision that John was given of things that were ordained in heaven before the foundation of the world.
IMO John is given to understand the Covenant of Redemption that was ordained in heaven through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With the opening of each seal there is greater and greater revelation of Christ as He rides on the white horse conquering and to conquer. He is closely followed by three horses that symbolize all oppression, evil and death that shall come upon the earth as the enemies of Christ work to keep the Kingdom of God from being completed as His Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth.

Then we come to the 5th seal which I believe is symbolically depicting Old Covenant faithful saints who had died waiting for the promised Messiah/Redeemer to come and save them. They were faithful unto death and the white robes are symbolic of purity and righteousness. The Covenant of Redemption ordained in heaven would come to pass, because none of the promises of God can fail. Being under the altar symbolically shows they are saved by the blood of the Lamb according to promise before the advent of Christ come to earth a man. They were told they must wait a little season until their fellow servants (Jews of faith) and their brethren (Christ) should be killed as they were.

Now the sixth seal that I believe might be interpreted in one of two ways. Since vs 16-17 write of the wrath of the Lamb that had come, rather than the wrath of God or Christ, I believe the language is of the first coming of Christ as a man. We see similar language in Rev 12 with great signs and wonders in heaven as the Christ-child is born.

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The other way to interpret the sixth seal is when Christ returns. But that's problematic because Rev 11 has Him coming again at the sounding of the seventh angel. An interesting point about the sounding of the seventh angel, it is the only angel that Scripture writes "in the day(s)" of the sounding of the seventh angel. I find this interesting because when the last/seventh angel begins to sound there are several things that come is close succession or together. With the sounding of the first six angels, whatever was to seems to have come without delay not for day(s).

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood
The second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God

Revelation 10:7 (KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:17 (KJV) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe Joel's prophecy begins at Pentecost and shall end with the great and notable day of the Lord's return. According to vs 21 the timing is when whosoever from every nation of the world shall call on the name of the Lord to be saved. This is IMO the whole Gospel age of grace.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This brings in another aspect of how it is we reach different conclusions, in how our soteriology affects timing.

To me this becomes a matter of interpretting the ambiguous by the unambiguous. So for instance the sheep/goats judgment makes specific statements which if taken at face value require we interpret other ambiguous passages (which could legitimately be read this way, or that way) in a certain way.

If the entire period from the Lord's ascent to the Lord's return is all equally the same manner of salvation (all salvation is by grace) then there is a problem with the sheep/goats judgment, because that is based on the behavior of the gentiles concerning the Israelites.

I wonder if you are confusing the sixth seal with the sounding of the seventh trumpet?

I believe Rev 4-6 is a continuous vision that John was given of things that were ordained in heaven before the foundation of the world.
IMO John is given to understand the Covenant of Redemption that was ordained in heaven through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Looking at the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world", I expect you are seeing this in the Revelation 13:8, which I'll show divided into it's clauses:

Revelation 13:8 KJV
8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

"Whose names are not written", this is in a Perfect Tense, that is, an action done in the past which effect remains. It's like a new bell that's never been rung, and then you ring it. Now it's a "rung bell". It will never again be an unrung bell. In this instance it's negated, literally reading, Whose names are not written/remaining".

We can combine a few of these clauses there being subordinate clauses:

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In the Koine Greek, word order isn't used the same as in English. Instead it uses word spelling to show different forms, those forms showing the connections in the sentences. In this passage, in the Greek grammar, "from the foundation of the world" can belong to either "whose names are not written in the book of life", or, equally valid, "of the Lamb slain".

So this passage can legitimately be interpretted as that the book of life was written from the foundation of the world, or that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. And therefore this passage is ambiguous, being able to be interpretted in more than one way.

The parallel passage clarifies this for us:

Revelation 17:8 KJV
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

From this we see it's referring to the names written from the foundation of the world. So this clarifies the other passage.

Your thoughts on this?

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How does what I've said prove Amil believes God is finished with Israel? The Gospel is available to ALL people, and even Israel in unbelief can enter the spiritual Kingdom of God by being born again by grace through faith.

The promise made to Israel has nothing to do with the gospel,

Salvation has always been jew or gentile.. Lev 26 concerns the nation. Not the church

 

[marks]

I wonder if you are confusing the sixth seal with the sounding of the seventh trumpet?

Generally not, I'd have to say. I can't give you chapter/verse on everything in the Revelation but I've got the lion's share of it in my head. So far my Scripture memory is holding out just fine though my other memory is having deficits.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe Rev 4-6 is a continuous vision that John was given of things that were ordained in heaven before the foundation of the world.
IMO John is given to understand the Covenant of Redemption that was ordained in heaven through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With the opening of each seal there is greater and greater revelation of Christ as He rides on the white horse conquering and to conquer. He is closely followed by three horses that symbolize all oppression, evil and death that shall come upon the earth as the enemies of Christ work to keep the Kingdom of God from being completed as His Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth.

Then we come to the 5th seal which I believe is symbolically depicting Old Covenant faithful saints who had died waiting for the promised Messiah/Redeemer to come and save them. They were faithful unto death and the white robes are symbolic of purity and righteousness. The Covenant of Redemption ordained in heaven would come to pass, because none of the promises of God can fail. Being under the altar symbolically shows they are saved by the blood of the Lamb according to promise before the advent of Christ come to earth a man. They were told they must wait a little season until their fellow servants (Jews of faith) and their brethren (Christ) should be killed as they were.

This would be considered an Historicist or Historical View, would that be correct? And in general, because that makes more sense to you that way, and in particular in it's reference to the Lamb, and a similar scenario on chapter 12, heavenly signs, and the Christ child. Is that fair to say?

For myself, I begin with Matthew 24, and the birth pangs. To me it makes sense, in general, that the birth pangs that come before the end, false christs, wars, famine, so forth, that these conditions which are like birth pangs, coming with greater and greater force, and shorter times in between (that seems to me to describe now), that with the opening of the seals, these conditions become overwhelming as the birth is now underway.

I see the horsemen showing government, society, economy, and ecology all becoming hostile to man, as the setting for the time of Jacob's Trouble.

In particular, I see these as future in that I see the scroll being opened in a single sitting, in the manner in which the passage reads. That is, in a matter of minutes, the time it takes to read it. And that the events of the sixth seal clearly have not occurred. I also see much congruence between the 6th seal - 1st trumpet and the events concerning Gog/Magog in their invasion of Israel. This again being prophesied events that have not yet occurred.

Much love!

 

[rwb]

This brings in another aspect of how it is we reach different conclusions, in how our soteriology affects timing.

To me this becomes a matter of interpretting the ambiguous by the unambiguous. So for instance the sheep/goats judgment makes specific statements which if taken at face value require we interpret other ambiguous passages (which could legitimately be read this way, or that way) in a certain way.

If the entire period from the Lord's ascent to the Lord's return is all equally the same manner of salvation (all salvation is by grace) then there is a problem with the sheep/goats judgment, because that is based on the behavior of the gentiles concerning the Israelites.

You don't believe the sheep/goat judgment, like the wheat/tares concern all believers and all unbelievers not dependent upon race, but upon faith?

Looking at the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world", expect you are seeing this in the Revelation 13:8, which I'll show divided into it's clauses:

Actually I am considering Rev 5:6, 6:1 giving no comments regarding the names written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Since you bring it up, I believe the names of all who shall be found in the book at the GWTJ are written in the Lambs Book of life from the foundation of the world, and Rev 13:8 and 17:8 are verses used to support this view, but they are not the only verses that do.

So this passage can legitimately be interpretted as that the book of life was written from the foundation of the world, or that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. And therefore this passage is ambiguous, being able to be interpretted in more than one way.

I believe both the names were written from the foundation of the world, and the book was also. Because I believe the book of life recorded in 5:1 that Christ was given to open the seven seals of is the book of life, God knowing from the foundation of the world who would be saved. Christ alone was worthy to open the book, revealing the names that are recorded from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 5:1-2 (KJV) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Revelation 5:6-8 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

From this we see it's referring to the names written from the foundation of the world. So this clarifies the other passage.

Your thoughts on this?

Much love!

I hope I've clearly shown my thoughts on this.

Much love marks!

 

[rwb]

The promise made to Israel has nothing to do with the gospel,

Salvation has always been jew or gentile.. Lev 26 concerns the nation. Not the church

You could not be more wrong on that EG. The Old Covenant nation was given the knowledge of a Messiah/Redeemer that would come to save them. Those of faith believed the Law that pointed them to the Messiah, and the Prophets who foretell His coming. Yes, I agree salvation has always been for both Jew and Gentile, but for a Gentile of Old to be saved they had to convert to Judaism and be obedient to God's commands and the Old Covenant Law. The nation of Israel of Old was the representation of the Church as She existed on earth then. The Gospel had been preached of Old to Israel as well as to Gentile nations after the first advent of Christ.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Romans 10:18-21 (KJV) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[rwb]

Generally not, I'd have to say. I can't give you chapter/verse on everything in the Revelation but I've got the lion's share of it in my head. So far my Scripture memory is holding out just fine though my other memory is having deficits.

Much love!

I know the feeling! The other day I visited with a neurologist, and he told me that as we age our brain shrinks! I laughed and said NOW I get it! LOL

Much love!

 

[marks]

You don't believe the sheep/goat judgment, like the wheat/tares concern all believers and all unbelievers not dependent upon race, but upon faith?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking me.

As I read the sheep goats judgment, it's when Jesus returns after the great tribulation, and after Israel is regathered to the promised land. That all the surviving gentiles are gathered, and divided between who will be removed being condemn for not having given aid to the Israelites, and those who did, and in return will be brought into the kingdom.

Actually I am considering Rev 5:6

Revelation 5:6 KJV
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

OK, I understand. You see this all as original revelation from the beginning, is that right?

I believe both the names were written from the foundation of the world, and the book was also. Because I believe the book of life recorded in 5:1 that Christ was given to open the seven seals of is the book of life, God knowing from the foundation of the world who would be saved. Christ alone was worthy to open the book, revealing the names that are recorded from the foundation of the world.

Interesting! I relate it to the scroll in Ezekiel, written inside and out, with lamenations and woe.

I hope I've clearly shown my thoughts on this.

I think so. I have that one question about the sheep/goats. Concerning the heavenly scene in ch. 5, and the opening of the seals, you see this as visionary revelation of God's plan from the beginning, showing both Christ going out to save, and the forces of evil trying to destroy. So it's not setting some end times stage, it's setting redemption's stage. Do I have it right?

Much love!

 

[rwb]

This would be considered an Historicist or Historical View, would that be correct? And in general, because that makes more sense to you that way, and in particular in it's reference to the Lamb, and a similar scenario on chapter 12, heavenly signs, and the Christ child. Is that fair to say?

For myself, I begin with Matthew 24, and the birth pangs. To me it makes sense, in general, that the birth pangs that come before the end, false christs, wars, famine, so forth, that these conditions which are like birth pangs, coming with greater and greater force, and shorter times in between (that seems to me to describe now), that with the opening of the seals, these conditions become overwhelming as the birth is now underway.

I see the horsemen showing government, society, economy, and ecology all becoming hostile to man, as the setting for the time of Jacob's Trouble.

In particular, I see these as future in that I see the scroll being opened in a single sitting, in the manner in which the passage reads. That is, in a matter of minutes, the time it takes to read it. And that the events of the sixth seal clearly have not occurred. I also see much congruence between the 6th seal - 1st trumpet and the events concerning Gog/Magog in their invasion of Israel. This again being prophesied events that have not yet occurred.

Much love!

For me chapters 3-6 of Revelation are past history, in fact a vision of the realm of heaven, not from heaven but of heaven and all that came to pass as the triune God-head ordained all that would come to pass upon the earth through the Lamb of God as He and the saints wage a great spiritual battle against Satan and all his forces of all evil. I don't mean to imply this spiritual warfare that began in earnest with the first advent of Christ does most assuredly have a great many human casualties. I agree the signs associated with Christ coming again have not taken place. I believe the opening of the seven seals is a prelude to all that shall come especially for those whose names are written in the Book of life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

For me chapters 3-6 of Revelation are past history, in fact a vision of the realm of heaven, not from heaven but of heaven and all that came to pass as the triune God-head ordained all that would come to pass upon the earth through the Lamb of God as He and the saints wage a great spiritual battle against Satan and all his forces of all evil. I don't mean to imply this spiritual warfare that began in earnest with the first advent of Christ does most assuredly have a great many human casualties. I agree the signs associated with Christ coming again have not taken place. I believe the opening of the seven seals is a prelude to all that shall come especially for those whose names are written in the Book of life.

Much love!

I'll have to continue later, and I'm looking forward to it!

Much love!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I know the feeling! The other day I visited with a neurologist, and he told me that as we age our brain shrinks! I laughed and said NOW I get it! LOL

Much love!

For sure the wrinkles we don't use in our brains atrophy !

 

[rwb]

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking me.

As I read the sheep goats judgment, it's when Jesus returns after the great tribulation, and after Israel is regathered to the promised land. That all the surviving gentiles are gathered, and divided between who will be removed being condemn for not having given aid to the Israelites, and those who did, and in return will be brought into the kingdom.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. Being Amil I don't believe there will be a regathering for Israel to receive the promised land. Israel has already received the promised land through Joshua, and if you take the time to read Joshua you will find that not a single promise God made to the nation of Israel regarding the promised land has been left unfulfilled. But so too has the promise of God to drive them from the good land of promise if they did not keep His Covenant and commandments.

Joshua 23:14 (KJV) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Revelation 5:6 KJV
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

OK, I understand. You see this all as original revelation from the beginning, is that right?

Yes.

I think so. I have that one question about the sheep/goats. Concerning the heavenly scene in ch. 5, and the opening of the seals, you see this as visionary revelation of God's plan from the beginning, showing both Christ going out to save, and the forces of evil trying to destroy. So it's not setting some end times stage, it's setting redemption's stage. Do I have it right?

Much love!

Exactly! I believe it is the beginning of the Gospel age, because John was told to write of what had been, what is and that shall come.

Again, much love and good night.

 

[Zao is life]

This would be considered an Historicist or Historical View, would that be correct? And in general, because that makes more sense to you that way, and in particular in it's reference to the Lamb, and a similar scenario on chapter 12, heavenly signs, and the Christ child. Is that fair to say?

For myself, I begin with Matthew 24, and the birth pangs. To me it makes sense, in general, that the birth pangs that come before the end, false christs, wars, famine, so forth, that these conditions which are like birth pangs, coming with greater and greater force, and shorter times in between (that seems to me to describe now), that with the opening of the seals, these conditions become overwhelming as the birth is now underway.

I see the horsemen showing government, society, economy, and ecology all becoming hostile to man, as the setting for the time of Jacob's Trouble.

In particular, I see these as future in that I see the scroll being opened in a single sitting, in the manner in which the passage reads. That is, in a matter of minutes, the time it takes to read it. And that the events of the sixth seal clearly have not occurred. I also see much congruence between the 6th seal - 1st trumpet and the events concerning Gog/Magog in their invasion of Israel. This again being prophesied events that have not yet occurred.

Much love!

Personally I see in everything that the Revelation says from chapter 4 to the close of chapter 19, signs that all of it (chapters 4 to 19) is talking about the final 42 months before the return of Christ (and only about that).

But I also believe that the last days began when Messiah had come, because it's the Messiah's Kingdom, which is here now (in a spiritual sense) but is coming (in a literal sense). So "in these last days" God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1:1). The New Testament doesn't call the final 42 months of this Age "the last days of the last days" but that's how I see it.

I see Joel chapters 2 and 3 as referring to Judah and Jerusalem vs. the nations at the beginning of, and the close of this Age.

Joel 2:1-11 (to me) refers to Rome's attack on Jerusalem in AD70. It was "the Day of the LORD", when Judah was being punished at the hands of the armies of Rome. They were led away captive until the times of the nations is fulfilled (Luke 21:24).

Joel chapter 3 I believe is talking about the judgment of the nations in the Kidron Valley (the Valley of Jehoshaphat) at the close of this Age because of what they have done to Judah (the Jews) and Jerusalem. Wickedness is wickedness, and God will punish the evil and wickedness of the nations (who have also dealt evilly and treacherously with the Jews), in the Kidron Valley.

This is not because I see Jews who do not believe in Jesus as God's chosen nation (any more than I see Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus as God's chosen nation), but because God is just, therefore what God is going to do, He will do not for Israel's sake, but for His holy name's sake (Ezekiel 36:22).

So like you, I have Joel chapter 3 linked to the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29.

But I do not have anything linked to Daniel 9:27. I believe both Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 12:1-11 were fulfilled in the 1st century.​