Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Davidpt]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



Well the power of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Yet once the strong man is loosed the gospel can no longer spoil his house, it won’t have the power to save any longer.

Exactly! And that's the way we Premils reason that as well, that what ever the biding caused to happen, assuming it's pertaining to this age, those things are reversed once satan is loosed.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time .
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


Regardless what Revelation 20:1 actually looks like when it is being fulfilled, doesn't what I have underlined in Revelation 12 adequately explain why this angel has to come down from heaven to bind satan, because that is where he has been cast unto, meaning the earth below? If nothing else, this at least tells us that he can't be bound until he has been cast to the earth first. The question then is, were does Revelation 20:1 fit within Revelation 12? The only place I can see it logically fitting is after verse 17 has been fulfilled. Obviously, it makes zero sense that while he is bound, that this is when he is having great wrath.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Seriously, does it sound like what I have underlined fits this---for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time?

 

[Marty fox]

I guess I'm just not explaining myself very well Marty. Saints won't be able to reign with Christ AFTER this symbolic time is over, but we still reign with Him during Satan's little season as long as we are alive on the earth. Satan's binding and our reigning with Christ a thousand years end because TIME, symbolized a thousand years will have ended. Then while Satan is free to gather together Gog & Magog, not during this TIME (a thousand years) that has expired, but during Satan's little season saints reign with Christ until we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

But you just contradicted yourself twice

You said

"Saints won't be able to reign with Christ AFTER this symbolic time is over"

Then you said

"but we still reign with Him during Satan's little season as long as we are alive on the earth."

and then you said

"but during Satan's little season saints reign with Christ until we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air."

You just admitted that saints will reign with Jesus after satan is released so they reign with Jesus after satans binding

 

[grafted branch]

Exactly! And that's the way we Premils reason that as well, that what ever the biding caused to happen, assuming it's pertaining to this age, those things are reversed once satan is loosed.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time .
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


Regardless what Revelation 20:1 actually looks like when it is being fulfilled, doesn't what I have underlined in Revelation 12 adequately explain why this angel has to come down from heaven to bind satan, because that is where he has been cast unto, meaning the earth below? If nothing else, this at least tells us that he can't be bound until he has been cast to the earth first. The question then is, were does Revelation 20:1 fit within Revelation 12? The only place I can see it logically fitting is after verse 17 has been fulfilled. Obviously, it makes zero sense that while he is bound, that this is when he is having great wrath.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Seriously, does it sound like what I have underlined fits this---for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time?

All good questions, I’m not sure how the Amill will be able to answer them but I’m interested in looking at their responses if they choose to answer.

 

[PinSeeker]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Glorious, is it not?

Well the power of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Absolutely.

Yet once the strong man is loosed the gospel can no longer spoil his house...

Gifted Branch, Jesus is speaking of plundering Satan's house, meaning, He is taking what is His, those given to Him by the Father (John 10), those Whom Satan thought were his. "Spoil his house"...? I don't even know what you mean by that.

, it won’t have the power to save any longer.

No, it's not that it won't have the power to save, it will be that... well... "it" has saved all that God intended, His purpose for the Gospel will have been accomplished. But again, the word of our Lord endures/stands forever.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes exactly but the binding ends when satan is released...

Sure. That's... what I said...

...and the reigning ends at the end of our world

Marty, are you saying that the millennial reign, it is Satan who is reigning? Surely not... Okay, so I think ~ or at least I hope, because I would agree ~ that Christ's millennial reign ends "at the end of our world," which is really to say when He returns, because the millennium will have ended. But His reign does not end, and will have no end. Again, the millennium will end, so His millennial reign will end, when the millennium is brought to a close. And then ~ after Satan's little season here on earth, which will be cut short for the sake of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20, Revelation 12:9-12, Revelation 20:7-9a), His reign will be in person... His eternal reign ~ because eternity, the age to come, will then be here ~ will at that point begin. You see?

Grace and peace to you

 

[Marty fox]

For what it's worth, I do grasp why you conclude what you do. Yet, you don't deal with other issues that this causes, such as the camp of the saints being surrounded after the thousand years. Obviously, if they are alive after the thousand years, they are alive during it as well. Except you have them still reigning a thousand years when the thousand years have already expired. Which then contradicts that it after the thousand years expire, that that is when the camp of the saints are attacked. Try looking at it like this. 2023 equals the thousand years. The beginning of 2024 equals satan's little season. How can they still be reigning in 2023 when it is now 2024 instead? When it is 2024, 2023 is in the past. Or maybe a better example might be this. In the US a President can only serve two 4 year terms at most. Once these 8 years are finished, how is it that this person can still be serving as President? In the same way, this thousand years equals an era of time, and once it is fulfilled, it is in the past at that point, not just for some, but for everyone.

Because as I have said repeatly over and over again my view is

The thousand year binding started at the cross and resurrection and ends when satan is released

The thousand year reigning started at the cross and resurrection and ends at the end of our world after satans release

My view of reigning is very different than your view of reigning

There are two sets of thousand years one the binding and one the reigning which actually have nothing to do with each other except that the same events the cross and the resurrection started them both.

We don't reign because satan is bound we reign because Jesus is God

So I have delt with those issues

 

[Marty fox]

Sure. That's... what I said...

Marty, are you saying that the millennial reign, it is Satan who is reigning? Surely not... Okay, so I think ~ or at least I hope, because I would agree ~ that Christ's millennial reign ends "at the end of our world," which is really to say when He returns, because the millennium will have ended. But His reign does not end, and will have no end. Again, the millennium will end, so His millennial reign will end, when the millennium is brought to a close. And then ~ after Satan's little season here on earth, which will be cut short for the sake of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20, Revelation 12:9-12, Revelation 20:7-9a), His reign will be in person... His eternal reign ~ because eternity, the age to come, will then be here ~ will at that point begin. You see?

Grace and peace to you

Why would you think that I mean satan is reigning? I have never said that and I have quoted my view several time on this thread its Jesus that reigns

Yes Jesus reign will never end I'm just saying that the reigning on this earth will end at the end of our world

 

[grafted branch]

Gifted Branch, Jesus is speaking of plundering Satan's house, meaning, He is taking what is His, those given to Him by the Father (John 10), those Whom Satan thought were his. "Spoil his house"...? I don't even know what you mean by that.

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

This is what I mean by spoiling his house. The strong man’s house contents are spoiled but once he is loosed it can no longer be spoiled.

If the gospel can only save a finite number of people then its power is limited, the gospel would be powerless to save a Gentile after the full number of Gentiles have been saved.

In the last days some are going to have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. If the gospel is powerless to save anyone else then a true believer will be able to recognize this and should indeed declare that the gospel is powerless to save anybody else.

2 Timothy warns against this yet if we should continue to reign after the thousand years and proclaim the truth we would be declaring the gospel as powerless to save unbelievers if your view is correct.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why would you think that I mean satan is reigning?

The way you worded that seemed ambiguous to me.

I have never said that and I have quoted my view several time on this thread its Jesus that reigns

Good; no worries.

Yes Jesus reign will never end I'm just saying that the reigning on this earth will end at the end of our world

Yeah just this wording is confusing to me. Again, no worries, it just seems much, much clearer to say, His reign in heaven ~ His millennial reign ~ will end with the millennium, and then after Satan's little season and then the final Judgment, His eternal reign ~ His reign on earth, with us as His co-heirs, will begin, because eternity, the age to come, will have begun. And I would submit, Marty, that our world will not end, but rather be made new (and us, too... all of creation), in that sin and death will be no more, having been finally defeated once and for all, and heaven and earth will be one again. God is making all things new, not "making all new things."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

This is what I mean by spoiling his house. The strong man’s house contents are spoiled...

Well, this much is true. Jesus is "spoiling" Satan's house, in that He's making what once was Satan's ~ in the sense that He tells some Jews in John 8 that they are of their father the devil (John 8:44) ~ into His.

...but once he is loosed it can no longer be spoiled.

Okay, agree, at least sort of, in the sense of what I said immediately above. In that sense, there would be, at some point, no longer any of Satan's house that will be "spoiled"... converted to Christ.

If the gospel can only save a finite number of people then its power is limited...

AH!!! Okay... The power of the Gospel is unlimited, and Jesus's sacrifice is sufficient to save everyone. In that sense, it is unlimited, and invincible. It's not that it can only save a finite number, Grafted branch. But it is only a finite number that it will save, because there is only a finite number that God calls and thus are saved; His elect, those chosen from before the foundation of the world, is a finite number, less than the whole, because God purposes to save the ones He has chosen. And, as Jesus says, He loses not one.

, the gospel would be powerless to save a Gentile after the full number of Gentiles have been saved.

No, the full purpose of the Gospel will be complete at that time, at least for the Gentiles, and then the partial hardening that is now on Israel will be removed, and we will see a large number of Jews come to Christ in a very short time. This is how all of Israel will be saved; this is what Paul is saying in Romans 11:25-26.

In the last days some are going to have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

Okay, well, these are unbelievers. Everyone is made in the image of God. But not all are of God, and this will always be so.

If the gospel is powerless to save anyone else then a true believer will be able to recognize this and should indeed declare that the gospel is powerless to save anybody else.

The Gospel is not powerless. Never was, is not, and never will be.

2 Timothy warns against this yet if we should continue to reign after the thousand years and proclaim the truth we would be declaring the gospel as powerless to save unbelievers if your view is correct.

Hmmmm... Again, the Gospel has never been, is not, and never will be "powerless"... but quite the opposite. But there will be a point where proclamation of the truth/Gospel will no longer be necessary ~ because there will be no unbelievers among us anymore. Having been on the wrong side of the final Judgment ~ on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:41-46) ~ they will have departed into their eternal dwelling place, where there will be only judgment (which sounds mild, maybe, but surely is not). For us, there will only be God's grace, and we will worship Him and praise Him as He ought to be worshiped and praised... in all our works, our coming out and going in, forever and ever. This is eternity, the age to come.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

God is making all things new, not "making all new things."

Which begs the question, what about animals on the new earth? If this entire planet literally goes up in flames, as a lot of Amils insist literally happens, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then. But if there are indeed animals on the new earth, how do they get there? Because even you admit---"God is making all things new, not "making all new things."---where I at least agree with you about that. It makes no sense to me that in the beginning God found animals to be relevant, but don't find them to still be relevant on the new earth.

Speaking of the new earth, how does one explain the following since it looks like death is still happening to me, at least pertaining to the fish they will be catching?

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Clearly, this is describing the same era of time Revelation 21-22 is describing. There is no way that verse 12 is not referring to the same tree of life Revelation 22 is referring to. whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed--obviously, that doesn't mean one won't eat from it when it says--neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed---it is meaning there is no end of it, that it will be there for all eternity. And in this same context there is verse 10.

 

[Zao is life]

Which begs the question, what about animals on the new earth? If this entire planet literally goes up in flames, as a lot of Amils insist literally happens, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then. But if there are indeed animals on the new earth, how do they get there? Because even you admit---"God is making all things new, not "making all new things."---where I at least agree with you about that. It makes no sense to me that in the beginning God found animals to be relevant, but don't find them to still be relevant on the new earth.

Speaking of the new earth, how does one explain the following since it looks like death is still happening to me, at least pertaining to the fish they will be catching?

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Clearly, this is describing the same era of time Revelation 21-22 is describing. There is no way that verse 12 is not referring to the same tree of life Revelation 22 is referring to. whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed--obviously, that doesn't mean one won't eat from it when it says--neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed---it is meaning there is no end of it, that it will be there for all eternity. And in this same context there is verse 10.

Personally I don't blindly believe that the whole planet goes up in flames.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the 1. elements [stoicheîon] shall be 2. dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the 3. works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10).

1. stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of the world;

2. lýō refers to something that was bound, being loosed.

3. érgon refers to the works of men.

stoicheîon

[*StrongsGreek*] 04747 στοιχεῖον stoicheîon, stoy-khi'-on neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of 4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.

[*StrongsGreek*] 04748 STOIXE/W στοιχέω stoichéō stoy-kheh'-o from a derivative of στείχω steíchō, (to range in regular line); to march in (military) rank (keep step), i.e. (figuratively) to conform to virtue and piety:--walk (orderly).

The word stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of this world in each of the following verses:

Galatians 4:3:
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheîon] of the world:

Galatians 4:9:
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements [stoicheîon], whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:20:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

érgon (works):

[*StrongsGreek*] 02041 E)/RGON ἔργον érgon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω érgō, (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Each one's érgon (work) shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's érgon (work) as to what kind it is. If anyone's érgon (work) which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. If anyone's érgon (work) shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Throughout the New Testament and without exception, érgon (works) always refers to the works of God / Christ, or of men, or of Satan (the vast majority of times it refers to the works of men):-

Verses that use the word érgon (works) that are referring to the works of Christ and of God the Father:-

Matthew 11:2; Luke 24:19; John 4:34; John 5:20; John 5:36; John 6:28; John 6:29; John 7:3; John 7:21; John 9:3; John 9:4; John 10:25; John 10:32; John 10:33; John 10:37; John 10:38; John 14:10; John 14:11; John 14:12; John 15:24; John 17:4; Acts 13:41; Acts 15:18; Romans 14:20; Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 1:10; Hebrews 2:7; Hebrews 3:9; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 4:4; Revelation 15:3.

Verses that use the word érgon (works) that are referring to the works of darkness or of Satan:-

Romans 13:12; II Corinthians 11:15; Ephesians 5:11; I John 3:8.

There is a very long list of verses that use the word érgon (works) that are referring to the works of men, and I have to shorten it because of the character limit:

Matthew 5:16; Matthew 23:3; Matthew 23:5; Matthew 26:10; Mark 13:34; Mark 14:6; Luke 11:48; John 3:19; John 3:20; John 3:21; John 7:7; John 8:39; John 8:41; Acts 5:38; Acts 7:22; Acts 7:41; Acts 9:36; Acts 13:2; Acts 14:26; Acts 15:38; Acts 26:20; Titus 2:14; Romans 2:6; Romans 2:7; Romans 2:15; Romans 3:20; Romans 3:27;........

James 3:13; I Peter 1:17; I Peter 2:12; II Peter 2:8; I John 3:12; I John 3:18; II John 1:11; III John 1:10; Jude 1:15; Revelation 2:2; Revelation 2:5; Revelation 2:6; Revelation 2:9; Revelation 2:13; Revelation 2:22; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 2:26; Revelation 2:19; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 3:2; Revelation 3:8; Revelation 3:15; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 14:13; Revelation 16:11; Revelation 18:6; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 20:13; Revelation 22:12.

lýō

[*StrongsGreek*] 03089 λύω lýō, loo'-o a primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off. Compare 4486.

It always refers to something that was bound being loosed, for example:

Luke 13:15-6
And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen [lýō] his ox or ass from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham whom Satan has bound, lo these eighteen years, be loosened [lýō] from this bond on the Sabbath day?

The Greek word lýō is found in all these verses, and more:-

Matthew 16:19:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose [lýō] on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 22:30:
On the morrow, because he would have known the certainty wherefore he was accused of the Jews, he loosed [lýō] him from his bands, and commanded the chief priests and all their council to appear, and brought Paul down, and set him before them.

Matthew 21:2:
Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [lýō] them, and bring them unto me.

Acts 2:24:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed [lýō] the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Mark 1:7:
And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose [lýō].

Mark 7:35:
And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed [lýō], and he spake plain.

Revelation of John 5:2:
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose [lýō] the seals thereof?

Revelation of John 9:15:
And the four angels were loosed [lýō], which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation of John 20:7:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison.

Matthew 5:19:
Whosoever therefore shall break [lýō] one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 5:18:
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken [lýō] the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.​

 

[grafted branch]

But there will be a point where proclamation of the truth/Gospel will no longer be necessary ~ because there will be no unbelievers among us anymore. Having been on the wrong side of the final Judgment ~ on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:41-46) ~ they will have departed into their eternal dwelling place, where there will be only judgment (which sounds mild, maybe, but surely is not). For us, there will only be God's grace, and we will worship Him and praise Him as He ought to be worshiped and praised... in all our works, our coming out and going in, forever and ever. This is eternity, the age to come.

I agree there is a point where there are no unbelievers among us but there will be unbelievers among us during Satans little season and that’s the problem. Think about this kind of situation, it’s the next day after Satan has been loosed, and Gentile neighbor Bob comes over.

Bob_I know I’ve said “no” every time you’ve asked me about being saved for the last ten years but now I do want to be saved, can you help me?

Amill Guy_that’s too bad Bob, in just a little season you’re gonna get burned up.

Bob_I thought faith came by hearing and hearing by the word of God, can you just tell me a little bit about Gods word?

Amill Guy_that used to be the way it was but now since Satan is loosed he’s going to prevent you from hearing the word.

Bob_so you’re not going to talk to me about the Bible?

Amill Guy_nope, there’s no hope for you Bob.



Can you see yourself doing something like this? I would hope not but that’s where your line of thinking leads to.

 

[PinSeeker]

Which begs the question, what about animals on the new earth? If this entire planet literally goes up in flames, as a lot of Amils insist literally happens...

If they do, then... they're wrong. And therefore "bad Amills."

, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then. But if there are indeed animals on the new earth, how do they get there?

There will be animals in on the new earth, David. All of God's creation will be redeemed and made new.

Because even you admit---"God is making all things new, not "making all new things."

"admit"... I mean, okay...

---where I at least agree with you about that. It makes no sense to me that in the beginning God found animals to be relevant, but don't find them to still be relevant on the new earth.

Good... Yeah that's actually an excellent point. When God finished His creative act, He declared it all ~ all ~ to be good, even very good.

Speaking of the new earth, how does one explain the following since it looks like death is still happening to me, at least pertaining to the fish they will be catching?

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.


Clearly, this is describing the same era of time Revelation 21-22 is describing. There is no way that verse 12 is not referring to the same tree of life Revelation 22 is referring to. whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed--obviously, that doesn't mean one won't eat from it when it says--neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed---it is meaning there is no end of it, that it will be there for all eternity. And in this same context there is verse 10.

Sure, well, there's no way to know exactly how it will look or be from here, David. I would say this about... fish... <chuckles>... that man will still have dominion over all of God's creation, even fish, specifically, along with the birds, and the livestock and creeping creatures (Genesis 1:26), just as it was in the beginning. Will God immediately resurrect (!)... or reincarnate (!)... or recreate (!)... fish once they are caught and possibly eaten? Ugh. Or, alternatively, will God continue to multiply animals as Jesus did the two fish and five loaves on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 5? That's possible, I guess, but hey, no offense, but I those are just ridiculous question ~ or superfluous ~ or extraneous ~ questions to ask; there's only so much we can answer about the eternal life we will have. And when the Bible says no more death, I would think God is talking about men, since that's who His Word was written to. Hey, a lot of Christians believe we'll be vegetarians in eternity, to which I would say, okay, yes, that's a distinct possibility, based on the fact that Adam and Eve originally were. But... we just don't know. Does it really matter? I would say no...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I agree there is a point where there are no unbelievers among us...

Right; cool...

...but there will be unbelievers among us during Satans little season...

Yes, agree...

...and that’s the problem.

I don't see that as a problem, really, but still something left for Jesus to correct, and... He will.

Think about this kind of situation, it’s the next day after Satan has been loosed, and Gentile neighbor Bob comes over.

Bob_I know I’ve said “no” every time you’ve asked me about being saved for the last ten years but now I do want to be saved, can you help me?

Amill Guy_that’s too bad Bob, in just a little season you’re gonna get burned up.

Bob_I thought faith came by hearing and hearing by the word of God, can you just tell me a little bit about Gods word?

Amill Guy_that used to be the way it was but now since Satan is loosed he’s going to prevent you from hearing the word.

Bob_so you’re not going to talk to me about the Bible?

Amill Guy_nope, there’s no hope for you Bob.

LOL! Well, that's very imaginative... I would say, Grafted Branch, that we cannot know when Satan is loosed, so until Jesus comes back, don't quit evangelizing.

Can you see yourself doing something like this?

Certainly not.

I would hope not but that’s where your line of thinking leads to.

Well... I disagree. Again, we cannot know when Satan is loosed. And, you know, it may have already happened, but, while we should be prepared, we just don't know. So, again, don't stop spreading the Good News. This is sort of akin to, if we knew exactly who would eventually be included in God's elect, then we could focus our evangelization efforts on only those people. But we don't, so we go and tell people about Jesus without discrimination. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

Well... I disagree. Again, we cannot know when Satan is loosed. And, you know, it may have already happened, but, while we should be prepared, we just don't know. So, again, don't stop spreading the Good News. This is sort of akin to, if we knew exactly who would eventually be included in God's elect, then we could focus our evangelization efforts on only those people. But we don't, so we go and tell people about Jesus without discrimination. Right?

So then what about a verse such as Amos 3:7?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Are you saying believers won’t be able to recognize Satan being loosed when it was very obvious and easy to discern when he was bound?

 

[PinSeeker]

So then what about a verse such as Amos 3:7?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Are you saying believers won’t be able to recognize Satan being loosed when it was very obvious and easy to discern when he was bound?

I know you don't mean to, but you're taking that verse out of context. Amos is talking about Israel's guilt and punishment there. Regarding what we're talking about, though, when ethnic Jews start coming to Jesus in great numbers in a very short time, it will be a good indicator that Satan has either been loosed or is very close to being loose, and that the time of the end is very near. But, remember that Jesus Himself said that even He does not know the hour. Be aware of and know the season, and be prepared, GB. Keep watch... and be aware of and know the season, and be prepared.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

I know you don't mean to, but you're taking that verse out of context. Amos is talking about Israel's guilt and punishment there. Regarding what we're talking about, though, when ethnic Jews start coming to Jesus in great numbers in a very short time, it will be a good indicator that Satan has either been loosed or is very close to being loose, and that the time of the end is very near. But, remember that Jesus Himself said that even He does not know the hour. Be aware of and know the season, and be prepared, GB. Keep watch... and be aware of and know the season, and be prepared.

Grace and peace to you.

I’m going to tell you what happened to me quite a few years ago. I don’t know if you’ve heard of a guy named Harold Camping or not but he was Amill and thought that Satan had been loosed and that the end was soon to come. He also thought that no one else was being saved at that time and that we should just hold fast to the faith we had.

He had a laundry list of reasons why Satan was loosed and he said things like he was just warning everyone so that their blood wouldn’t be on his hands. I listened to him on the radio, this was the first time in my life I heard about election vs free will, eschatology, and other types of theology. He was very convincing with his Amill view but his prediction of Jesus returning in 2011 was false.

I got back to studying the Bible about 5 years ago and the bottom line for me is that I now have to analyze all these different views and they have to make sense. I went down the Amill road once and I’m just very skeptical of it, and not only Amill but all the different views.

 

[Timtofly]

Most Amils, and a lot of us Premils as well, except for maybe Pretribbers, take the day of the Lord to be meaning the 2nd coming.

The Day of the Lord is the Millennium. That is what Peter is saying. The Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, but will last a millennium.

The millennium will start around the same time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

 

[Timtofly]

Three days before Passover in 70AD the Roman army started besieging Jerusalem. This could’ve been the hour of temptation that they were kept from, the temptation to travel to Jerusalem as many Jews did in 70AD before becoming trapped in the city.



Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.



John’s primary audience was Jews not Gentiles so we have to keep this in mind when reading Revelation.

How can you say the primary audience was Jews? The church is more than just an ethnicity. Saying that John went only to the circumcised Jews is meaningless, in regards to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, since Revelation was to the church, not to an ethnicity.

Unless you have a verse confirming this "hour of temptation", you can make stuff up all day long. I am sure someone somewhere will agree with you.

Maybe the hour of temptation was World War 1, when the last orthodox Christian group left the city for good?