Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty fox]

I don't believe our reigning with Christ ends while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth. But Satan is set free after the thousand years expire. The thousand years during which we live and reign with Christ before we physically die.

Okay please hear me out and ponder this before you answer.

You just said

"I don't believe our reigning with Christ ends while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth."

Then you said

"But Satan is set free after the thousand years expire"

Thus the saints as you say "are reigning with Christ while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth" that are still alive on the earth after as you say "satan is set free after the thousand years expire" have to still be reigning because you said "our reigning with Christ doesn't end while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth" right?

 

[Timtofly]

David, since a thousand years symbolizes TIME, it could be as little as one second, minute, hour, day, month, year, or multitudes of time UNKNOWN! When someone lives and dies during this symbolic time, they have lived and died during TIME symbolized a thousand years. The only thing known about this symbolic time is that it began with the binding of Satan, which was through the first advent of Christ, and this symbolic time shall not end until the day(s) when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound.

A thousand years is the specific symbolization of a thousand years. That is why we use words to symbolize our thoughts.

You are the one changing the length to suit your interpretational bias. If left between the Second Coming and the end, a thousand years makes as much sense as the almost 2,000 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. There is nothing alarming nor demanded by premill. No one was told the length of time between the Cross and the Second Coming, and here it is almost 2,000 years later. Now we see John giving us a time frame, and only amil have to change what is stated.

 

[rwb]

Okay please hear me out and ponder this before you answer.

You just said

"I don't believe our reigning with Christ ends while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth."

Then you said

"But Satan is set free after the thousand years expire"

Thus the saints as you say "are reigning with Christ while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth" that are still alive on the earth after as you say "satan is set free after the thousand years expire" have to still be reigning because you said "our reigning with Christ doesn't end while we continue to live as faithful saints on this earth" right?

Yes, this is what I believe. As we live as faithful saints on this earth since the advent of Christ, Satan is also bound during this time as we are alive and reigning.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, this is what I believe. As we live as faithful saints on this earth since the advent of Christ, Satan is also bound during this time as we are alive and reigning.

Yes but as you just said we still are alive and reigning during satans little season after he is released and before the end of our world thus the reigning and binding ends at different times

 

[rwb]

Yes but as you just said we still are alive and reigning during satans little season after he is released and before the end of our world thus the reigning and binding ends at different times

So you're not talking about when the binding and reigning with Christ begins, but when it ends. And since the saints alive during Satan's little season are still reigning with Christ during this time AFTER Satan's binding has ended, you believe that the reigning and binding that ends at different times proves two separate thousand-year periods of time?

 

[Marty fox]

So you're not talking about when the binding and reigning with Christ begins, but when it ends. And since the saints alive during Satan's little season are still reigning with Christ during this time AFTER Satan's binding has ended, you believe that the reigning and binding that ends at different times proves two separate thousand-year periods of time?

Yes thats what I have been writing all of this time LOL

We don't reign with Jesus because satan is bound we reign with Jesus because He is God and what He did. If we reign after satan is released that proves it.

The same events the cross and the resurrection were the same events that started both sets of thousand years but they end at different times because they are different

 

[rwb]

Yes thats what I have been writing all of this time LOL

We don't reign with Jesus because satan is bound we reign with Jesus because He is God and what He did. If we reign after satan is released that proves it.

The same events the cross and the resurrection were the same events that started both sets of thousand years but they end at different times because they are different

Okay Marty, I think the light bulb has finally turned on LOL.

In reality once the faithful saints still alive after the thousand years of Satan's binding has ended, are reigning with Christ during Satan's little season after the thousand years have ended. It appears, to me anyway, that you believe Satan's little season of freedom is the second thousand years of time? If that was true, why does John write it is a "little season"?

 

[Marty fox]

Okay Marty, I think the light bulb has finally turned on LOL.

In reality once the faithful saints still alive after the thousand years of Satan's binding has ended, are reigning with Christ during Satan's little season after the thousand years have ended. It appears, to me anyway, that you believe Satan's little season of freedom is the second thousand years of time? If that was true, why does John write it is a "little season"?

No that's not what I'm saying what i'm saying is

1. The thousand year binding started at the cross and resurrection and ends when satan is released.

2. The thousand year reigning started at the cross and resurrection and ends at the end of our world

 

[rwb]

No that's not what I'm saying what i'm saying is

1. The thousand year binding started at the cross and resurrection and ends when satan is released.

2. The thousand year reigning started at the cross and resurrection and ends at the end of our world

Marty the thousand years when we reign with Christ and the thousand years when Satan is bound both begin and end at the same time. That's when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. That one and only period of TIME symbolized a thousand years end, and Satan's little season begins. But as you've said and I agree we don't reign with Christ because Satan is bound, we reign with Christ because of the cross and resurrection of Christ. Since we don't reign with Christ because Satan is bound, we don't stop reigning with Christ during Satan's little season.

John writes "there shall be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound". It's easy to read over what is written. The sounding of the seventh angel is followed by DAYS. Those days are not another thousand years period of symbolic time, that wouldn't make sense, but these days are to give Satan his little season. There is much going on during these days that follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty the thousand years when we reign with Christ and the thousand years when Satan is bound both begin and end at the same time. That's when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. That one and only period of TIME symbolized a thousand years end, and Satan's little season begins. But as you've said and I agree we don't reign with Christ because Satan is bound, we reign with Christ because of the cross and resurrection of Christ. Since we don't reign with Christ because Satan is bound, we don't stop reigning with Christ during Satan's little season.

John writes "there shall be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound". It's easy to read over what is written. The sounding of the seventh angel is followed by DAYS. Those days are not another thousand years period of symbolic time, that wouldn't make sense, but these days are give Satan his little season.

But I just told you that its not another thousand year period of symbolic time I said its the continuation of the thousand year reign.

You just said yourself that the saints still reign after satan is released so thats proof that they end at separate times.

 

[Timtofly]

If Revelation was written after 70AD, what was the hour of temptation that came upon the whole world that the church at Philadelphia was kept from? What event that happened after 70AD and within their lifetime qualified as coming upon the whole world?

I don't have an answer, as the dark ages lasted quite some time, but the destruction of Jerusalem certainly did not effect the whole world.

 

[rwb]

But I just told you that its not another thousand year period of symbolic time I said its the continuation of the thousand year reign.

You just said yourself that the saints still reign after satan is released so thats proof that they end at separate times.

Okay Marty, but why do you believe this symbolic period of time ends at one time for those reigning, and another time for Satan? Since it's ONE time, how can the same one time end twice? I'm sorry, but that simply does not make any sense to me.

 

[Davidpt]

Okay Marty, but why do you believe this symbolic period of time ends at one time for those reigning, and another time for Satan? Since it's ONE time, how can the same one time end twice? I'm sorry, but that simply does not make any sense to me.

Not only does it not make sense, it would mean the camp of the saints that satan and his followers attack after the thousand years, they are actually attacking them during the thousand years. After all, it is not reasonable that the camp of saints attacked after the thousand years are not present during the thousand years. And if these same camp of saints are still reigning for a thousand years after satan's little season begins, that obviously, like I already pointed out, means that satan is attacking the camp of the saints during the thousand years rather than after. This is such an obvious contradiction that it's hard to believe anyone could think this is logical.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


When does the text indicate verse 9 takes place? After the thousand years are finished? Or before the thousand years are finished? Undeniably, the former. The camp of saints being attacked here, if they weren't bodily alive during the thousand years, where did they come from all of a sudden then? And if they were bodily alive during the thousand years, where is the text that states they are attacked during the thousand years?

 

[grafted branch]

I don't have an answer, as the dark ages lasted quite some time, but the destruction of Jerusalem certainly did not effect the whole world.

I don’t want to debate on this thread why the destruction of Jerusalem could be seen as something coming upon the whole world so I’ll just give you this snippet to chew on.



Jews did not always mean “the physical universe” when they spoke of heaven and earth together. In Jewish literature, the Temple was a portal connecting heaven and earth. They called it the “navel of the earth” and the “gateway to heaven” (Jub 8:19; 1 Enoch 26:1). Just like the Mesopotamian Tower in Genesis 11, the Temple connected God’s realm to where humans lived.

To reflect this belief, the Jerusalem Temple had been built to look like a microcosm of the universe. We typically overlook how literally true the Temple hymn preserved in Psalm 78:69 is: "He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded for ever." The actual holy place and most holy place inside the Temple building were constructed like earth and heaven. The courts outside represented the sea.

 

[Davidpt]

The courts outside represented the sea.

Interesting. Wonder if that could be what is meant in Revelation 21:1 when the text indicates--and there was no more sea? After all, according to Revelation 11:1-2, there is trouble involving the court without, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Timtofly]

The prophecy begins with Michael standing up for his people. This is shown to have been fulfilled when Christ was born. Michael and his angels stood up for his people, waging war in heaven against the dragon and his angels. The dragon and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to the earth. Why were they cast out of heaven, because he accused believers day and night before God in heaven. The birth put an end to that when He was born and the dragon was not able to destroy Him then.

That is also the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. So when did the other 6 Trumpets sound prior to the birth of Jesus? When did the dead rise at this 7th Trumpet sound at the birth of Jesus?

 

[grafted branch]

Interesting. Wonder if that could be what is meant in Revelation 21:1 when the text indicates--and there was no more sea? After all, according to Revelation 11:1-2, there is trouble involving the court without, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

I do think that is very possible.

 

[grafted branch]

Not only does it not make sense, it would mean the camp of the saints that satan and his followers attack after the thousand years, they are actually attacking them during the thousand years. After all, it is not reasonable that the camp of saints attacked after the thousand years are not present during the thousand years. And if these same camp of saints are still reigning for a thousand years after satan's little season begins, that obviously, like I already pointed out, means that satan is attacking the camp of the saints during the thousand years rather than after. This is such an obvious contradiction that it's hard to believe anyone could think this is logical.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


When does the text indicate verse 9 takes place? After the thousand years are finished? Or before the thousand years are finished? Undeniably, the former. The camp of saints being attacked here, if they weren't bodily alive during the thousand years, where did they come from all of a sudden then? And if they were bodily alive during the thousand years, where is the text that states they are attacked during the thousand years?

There is also the problem of how Satan is bound if you claim Satans millennium ends prior to the human millennium.

Typically it is said that the strong man had to be bound before his house is spoiled but with human millennium extending past the time Satan is loosed that would have to mean reigning with Christ has nothing to do with spoiling Satans house which is usually interpreted as allowing Gentiles to be saved. This would seem to contradict the very reason why those in Revelation 20:4 are beheaded and reign, which was for the witness of Jesus and the word of God.

In other words the human millennium starts at the same time Satans house is being spoiled but then, while still reigning with Christ, all of a sudden Satans house can no longer be spoiled. This would seem to mean that the gospel no longer has the power to save people once Satan is loosed.

 

[Timtofly]

The same events the cross and the resurrection were the same events that started both sets of thousand years but they end at different times because they are different.

One issue with your paradox.

One can still reign even after a thousand years. But one cannot keep being bound once the thousand years ends. That is the difference. Binding is something that is prohibiting for a period of time. Reigning is not a prohibition. So reigning does not have to end to make the thousand year reign true. A false statement would include they only reigned 900 years instead of 1,000. Cutting the reign short would nullify the thousand years. Ruling longer would not nullify the thousand years. Satan was loosed after the thousand years. Nothing in the chapter that states the reigning ends.

 

[Marty fox]

Okay Marty, but why do you believe this symbolic period of time ends at one time for those reigning, and another time for Satan? Since it's ONE time, how can the same one time end twice? I'm sorry, but that simply does not make any sense to me.

I believe that for the same reason you do you even said it yourself

The binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

Because as I have said repeatedly it’s not one time but two times