Since your witnesses are obviously superior to the Reformers, you should be able to easily identify them.
Who are they?
Understanding the 'Little Horn' power of Prophecy in Daniel.
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Who are they?
So, you are afraid of giving me the biblical evidence to support your POV because you have none.
Goodbye
Well, if one looks at the record the interpretation of the kingdoms from which the 'little horn' comes out of in Daniel, it shows that the church and bible scholars generally identified the four kingdoms of Daniel as Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome and that "the stone being cut without hands" referred to Christ. There was also a basic agreement among the early church in regard to the view that the stone smiting the image symbolized the second coming of Christ. So the only real deviation comes in the identification of the antichrist entity that comes out of the Roman Empire, we just have to understand the one part that causes differences in opinion, who is this 'little horn' power.
But the text of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are two chapters describing the same thing. Daniel 7 shows us that the pagan Roman empire follows the Greek empire which comes after the Medo-Persian empire etc. Daniel 8 shows the same sequence only it drops off the Babylonian empire symbol in Daniel 7 which was the Lion of Daniel 7. They both describe the persecution of the saints and they both point to the judgment event in heaven as the means of solving the problem of saints being persecuted. Daniel uses the "day for a year" prophecy time line in his visions for Daniel 7, Daniel 8 but also for Daniel 9 and 12, and this is the key to understanding the full interpretation of these prophecies.
But the text of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are two chapters describing the same thing. Daniel 7 shows us that the pagan Roman empire follows the Greek empire which comes after the Medo-Persian empire etc. Daniel 8 shows the same sequence only it drops off the Babylonian empire symbol in Daniel 7 which was the Lion of Daniel 7. They both describe the persecution of the saints and they both point to the judgment event in heaven as the means of solving the problem of saints being persecuted. Daniel uses the "day for a year" prophecy time line in his visions for Daniel 7, Daniel 8 but also for Daniel 9 and 12, and this is the key to understanding the full interpretation of these prophecies.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Although much speculation has been offered down through centuries, within the church age, none come to full terms with the understanding of all of Gal. ch. 4, concerning the Mystery of who Babylon the Great is, and how it is that "she" is the MOTHER OF harlots.
In all of the NT scriptures, there are only two prophetic "mothers" being talked about.
However, for all of that, no one dares to accept it or address it.
They are:
1. Zion that is above- is heavenly Jerusalem, "the mother of us all", who are of faith in Jesus/Messiah) and is FREE.
2. "The Daughter of Zion"- is earthly Jerusalem, which is the "mother of harlots", who is in bondage with her children, and "is FALLEN".
In 70AD "The Daughter of Zion" fell into desolation and destruction under the Romans. I am sure that John the disciple, who wrote Revelation in 96AD, was a witness of it. In Revelation, He speaks of BOTH MOTHERS as being that of Jerusalem, but it is we who are to use discernment, as to which "Great City" that he is pointing to.
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Daniel 7
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Ten horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:
Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great
Little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493.
The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553.
Since your interpretation is superior
, you must know the names of the ten kings/kingdoms, the name of the little horn king/kingdom, and the names of the three kings/kingdoms.Who are they?
Don't be afraid.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
I just destroyed your whole thesis, yet here is a guy folks who refuses to let facts get in his way, SMH.
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Maybe you know the names of the kings and kingdoms requested in post 106.
Who are they?
Poor Bro. Jay can use all the help he can get.
Since your interpretation is superior
Who are they?
Why do I need to know the names of these entities when scripture tells us that the entities are wicked, fallen and rebelling heavenly hosts. That is all that I need to know.
Now you quoted Daniel 7:23-24: -
Now since there is a 1,000-year gap in Daniel 7, which I would suggest is between verses 18 and 19 when this beast rises up out of the earth, then, how can you link the ten names of the ten horns to the past like you have. Logically it does not make any sense at all.
You then lampooned
Maybe you know the names of the kings and kingdoms requested in post 106.
Who are they?
Poor Bro. Jay can use all the help he can get.
@covenantee you again are using a false argument by lampooning @Ronald D Milam with your illogical request to provide name human for the ten horn entities that will appear over 1,000-years into the future.
You are such a funny member who does not know your own shortcomings.Nothing but hallucination, evasion, and malinterpretation.
I'm entirely unsurprised.
Thank God that the Reformers were not dispensational futurists.
There is no 1,000-year gap. Such gaps are a fabrication of psychotic modernist dispensational futurism, seen elsewhere in its futile attempt to decapitate the 70th of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9.
Thank God that the Reformers were not dispensational futurists.
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Ronald D Milam
Active Member
I have him on ignore from way back, can't remember why, seems like hes one of those who never listens and just keeps on posting, even after hes been proven wrong. Usually if people do that over and over, and over I just do not want to see a reply from them. I mean, you have to be able to have a discourse on a chat board, lol.you again are using a false argument by lampooning @Ronald D Milam with your illogical request to provide name human for the ten horn entities that will appear over 1,000-years into the future.
Alexander conquered the known world within the sphere that concerned the Holy Land, just as Babylon, Media-Persia, and Rome did. This is the key to understanding the prophecy, as these empires had a influence on the people of God and thus they were given what would happen in their timeline. And you know how the Pope was involved in changing the early church and sending in the Crusades into the Holy Land.
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Now as to the 10 kings that would arise and the little horn we see the little horn came up from among them, the ten horns. The little horn came up after the Roman Empire ceased and so we have to look at who were the ten horns after the Roman Empire ceased in A.D. 476?
They were the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Alamanni, Anglo-Saxons, Heruli, Lombards and Bergundians.
Daniel 7:7-8
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
So the little horn is led by leader who is a man and we see a mouth speaking 'great things'. Among the ten horns, three are replaced by little horn power that had intelligence (eyes like the eyes of a man), and a boastful mouth (speaking pompous words). So who are the three horns which were plucked up, lets look....
The Vandals were taken out first when the Emperor Justinian in the Eastern half of the Roman Empire in Constantinople, sent Belisarius to attack the Vandals in Italy. Belisarius took out the Vandals in 534 because they posed a threat to the supremacy of the Catholic church in the West. In the north, Clovis and the Franks defeated the Arian Visigoths and drove them into Spain in 507 which removed this threat and also was a theological victory for the bishop of Rome. So you have Ostrogoths in Italy as the sole surviving Arian power to hinder the papacy in the west.
Belisarius began his campaign against the Ostrogoths in Italy in 534 and were driven from Rome, but returned and laid siege to Rome in 538. But Justinian landed another army in Italy who came, and in March in 538, the Ostrogoths abandoned the siege. Their withdrawal from Rome in 538 marked the real end of Ostrogothic power, though not of the Ostrogothic nation, we see the history on this.
"This disposed of the Visigothic kingdom, but there yet remained the league of Arian powers under Theodoric (of the Ostrogoths). Alaric had counted on the assistance of Theodoric, but the latter failed him. The next year, A.D. 508, however, Theodoric came against Clovis and gained a victory, after which he unaccountably made peace with him, and the resistance of the Arian powers was at an end." – (See Thomas Hodgkin, Theodoric the Goth, p 202,203. Nugent Robinsen, A History of the World, Vol 1, p 75-79, 81.82)
They were the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Alamanni, Anglo-Saxons, Heruli, Lombards and Bergundians.
Daniel 7:7-8
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
So the little horn is led by leader who is a man and we see a mouth speaking 'great things'. Among the ten horns, three are replaced by little horn power that had intelligence (eyes like the eyes of a man), and a boastful mouth (speaking pompous words). So who are the three horns which were plucked up, lets look....
The Vandals were taken out first when the Emperor Justinian in the Eastern half of the Roman Empire in Constantinople, sent Belisarius to attack the Vandals in Italy. Belisarius took out the Vandals in 534 because they posed a threat to the supremacy of the Catholic church in the West. In the north, Clovis and the Franks defeated the Arian Visigoths and drove them into Spain in 507 which removed this threat and also was a theological victory for the bishop of Rome. So you have Ostrogoths in Italy as the sole surviving Arian power to hinder the papacy in the west.
Belisarius began his campaign against the Ostrogoths in Italy in 534 and were driven from Rome, but returned and laid siege to Rome in 538. But Justinian landed another army in Italy who came, and in March in 538, the Ostrogoths abandoned the siege. Their withdrawal from Rome in 538 marked the real end of Ostrogothic power, though not of the Ostrogothic nation, we see the history on this.
"This disposed of the Visigothic kingdom, but there yet remained the league of Arian powers under Theodoric (of the Ostrogoths). Alaric had counted on the assistance of Theodoric, but the latter failed him. The next year, A.D. 508, however, Theodoric came against Clovis and gained a victory, after which he unaccountably made peace with him, and the resistance of the Arian powers was at an end." – (See Thomas Hodgkin, Theodoric the Goth, p 202,203. Nugent Robinsen, A History of the World, Vol 1, p 75-79, 81.82)
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
I just showed you a map, he NEVER conquered west (not east) to the Atlantic Ocean as Rome did, and never conquered west to the Atlantic ocean in Africa.
He NEVER Conquered the WHOLE Mediterranean Sea Region, NEVER !!! Ro me did, the coming A.C. will. That A.C. will be born in Greece thus he will fulfill Dan. 2:39. How do you sit there and say he conquered the whole Mediterranean Sea Region?If you can't win a debate.................just act like Biden, he knows nothing but says he knows everything.
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No, neither are the apostate church we are given and havent fulfilled the prophecies, especially with Israel being wiped out by the Romans and being out of the equation during this time..
Where do you get this 'Mediterranean Sea Region' interpretation, it was the powers that affected the people of God, and we see they did.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
Dan. 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast(Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth,(Earth being spoken about ONLY) and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise(E.U. the 10 = Completion): and another shall rise after them(Little Horn/A.C.); and he(A.C.) shall be diverse from the first(Rome), and he shall subdue three kings.
So, the Beasts all arise out of the Great Sea (Mediterranean Sea) and the Four Winds shows these Beast will cover this full area in every direction. In vs. 17 it states the kings arise from the earth, meaning their original kingdoms were not as vast but were mere kingdoms that would grow in stature over time. The fourth beast will conquer the WHOLE EARTH [being spoken about]. We can see what this is by looking at each kingdom and the amount of land they ruled over in the Great Sea area.
God only gave Daniel 5 Beasts counting the A.C. to come, or four beasts via the landmass they covered, both the A.C. and Rome will cover the exact same territory. But he told John of all 7 beasts, that is why we see 7 Heads and 10 horns. The fact we get the 7th Head AND the 10 horns mentioned shows us the last Beast is one man, because God also gave the kingdom he arises in (10 = the E.U.) if the 7th Head was a Nation it would have just been called the 7th Head with no 10 horns ever mentioned. He never passes his kingdom on to another, thus he is THE BEAST, psstt, just like vs. 17 above, the kings themselves were the original Beasts !! Now lets look and Dan. 2 and Rev. 13.
Dan. 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth[which was being spoken about].
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.(Many nations trying to be one nation)
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
These nations try to mix many varied seeds together, clans/tribe/peoples, but they do not mix very well, look at Hungary today, they are telling the E.U. to take a hike, they will not allow any more immigrants in to their country, nor well they accept the E.U. brainwashing of their children on the homosexual agenda any longer. England left the E.U. so its not like a central dominant power Rome had and they thus dictated everything by brute force, these elitist (E.U.) leaders have to get agreement from many factions, thus it it is seen by God as Iron (Old Rome) but mixed with Clay and iron & clay do no mix well. But from Egypt, to Assyria, to Babylon to Rome they all conquered a portion of the Mediterranean Sea Region, and Israel was a part of those conquests every time. Only Rome conquered the whole region (WHOLE EARTH spoken about via the 7 Headed 10 Horned region).
Revv. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.(Being spoken about in the region)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth(in the REGION being spoken about) shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Now why is it you do not question that Greece never conquered the WHOLE WORLD, but assume everywhere that this phrase is used it actually has to mean the WHOLE WORLD? It actual means EARTH and it was being applied to the EARTH in question, the designated portion being spoken about was where the Great Sea was at, and only Rome conquered the "WHOLE EARTH" as the maps of Rome circa 117 AD shows us. But Greece also has to conquer the whole earth (Mediterranean Sea Region) being spoken about, and he does, as the A.C. who is born in Greece as Dan. 8:9 mandates. Read Dan. 11:40-43, it shows us he conquers nations to get at Israel (Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria) and then all of North Africa. Since he is the President of the E.U. his kingdom will look like this (SEE BELOW)
Blue = the E.U. who will conquer Turkey, Israel and all of North Africa and everything in between save for Edom, Ammon and Moab (Where Israel flees unto).
Like father like son Rome is the father seen below
Why can't you guys get what God is saying by the 10 ARISE out of the Fourth Beasts Head as in Rome? God did that because after the Church Age, everything goes back to before, the same people (E.U.) come against Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.
Take out the CHURCH AGE and everything fits back together like a puzzle.
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Where do they get this idea, no one ever had such a thing from the early church on down, must be a recent thing...
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