Understanding the 'Little Horn' power of Prophecy in Daniel.

[Hobie]

Dan. 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast(Rome) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth,(Earth being spoken about ONLY) and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise(E.U. the 10 = Completion): and another shall rise after them(Little Horn/A.C.); and he(A.C.) shall be diverse from the first(Rome), and he shall subdue three kings.

So, the Beasts all arise out of the Great Sea (Mediterranean Sea) and the Four Winds shows these Beast will cover this full area in every direction. In vs. 17 it states the kings arise from the earth, meaning their original kingdoms were not as vast but were mere kingdoms that would grow in stature over time. The fourth beast will conquer the WHOLE EARTH [being spoken about]. We can see what this is by looking at each kingdom and the amount of land they ruled over in the Great Sea area.

God only gave Daniel 5 Beasts counting the A.C. to come, or four beasts via the landmass they covered, both the A.C. and Rome will cover the exact same territory. But he told John of all 7 beasts, that is why we see 7 Heads and 10 horns. The fact we get the 7th Head AND the 10 horns mentioned shows us the last Beast is one man, because God also gave the kingdom he arises in (10 = the E.U.) if the 7th Head was a Nation it would have just been called the 7th Head with no 10 horns ever mentioned. He never passes his kingdom on to another, thus he is THE BEAST, psstt, just like vs. 17 above, the kings themselves were the original Beasts !! Now lets look and Dan. 2 and Rev. 13.

Dan. 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth[which was being spoken about].

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.(Many nations trying to be one nation)

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

These nations try to mix many varied seeds together, clans/tribe/peoples, but they do not mix very well, look at Hungary today, they are telling the E.U. to take a hike, they will not allow any more immigrants in to their country, nor well they accept the E.U. brainwashing of their children on the homosexual agenda any longer. England left the E.U. so its not like a central dominant power Rome had and they thus dictated everything by brute force, these elitist (E.U.) leaders have to get agreement from many factions, thus it it is seen by God as Iron (Old Rome) but mixed with Clay and iron & clay do no mix well. But from Egypt, to Assyria, to Babylon to Rome they all conquered a portion of the Mediterranean Sea Region, and Israel was a part of those conquests every time. Only Rome conquered the whole region (WHOLE EARTH spoken about via the 7 Headed 10 Horned region).

Revv. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.(Being spoken about in the region)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth(in the REGION being spoken about) shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now why is it you do not question that Greece never conquered the WHOLE WORLD, but assume everywhere that this phrase is used it actually has to mean the WHOLE WORLD? It actual means EARTH and it was being applied to the EARTH in question, the designated portion being spoken about was where the Great Sea was at, and only Rome conquered the "WHOLE EARTH" as the maps of Rome circa 117 AD shows us. But Greece also has to conquer the whole earth (Mediterranean Sea Region) being spoken about, and he does, as the A.C. who is born in Greece as Dan. 8:9 mandates. Read Dan. 11:40-43, it shows us he conquers nations to get at Israel (Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria) and then all of North Africa. Since he is the President of the E.U. his kingdom will look like this (SEE BELOW)

Blue = the E.U. who will conquer Turkey, Israel and all of North Africa and everything in between save for Edom, Ammon and Moab (Where Israel flees unto).

View attachment 40279
Like father like son Rome is the father seen below
View attachment 40280

Why can't you guys get what God is saying by the 10 ARISE out of the Fourth Beasts Head as in Rome? God did that because after the Church Age, everything goes back to before, the same people (E.U.) come against Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

Take out the CHURCH AGE and everything fits back together like a puzzle.

Need to understand what the symbol of "the sea" means in the text and especially in Prophecy. When its seen in the beasts rising out of the sea and out of the earth, it designates origination, and symbolizes peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.
Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Need to understand what the symbol of "the sea" means in the text and especially in Prophecy. When its seen in the beasts rising out of the sea and out of the earth, it designates origination, and symbolizes peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.
Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

NO..........This is two entirely different entities being spoken about. The Daniel Beasts/Statue and Rev. 13 are the exact same entities.

Rev. 17 is describing the "Harlot" and thus every clue is about her. The Sea there is talking about ALL FALSE RELIGION everywhere in the world, or it could be just in that region also, the end times will see the USA or North & South America burning, we are the 1/3. Its 28 percent, but not counting Antarctica, its roughly 33 percent because Antarctica makes up 9.4 percent of the worlds landmass, so the 28.3 is roughly 1/3 of the worlds surface. So, North & South America, IMHO, is where the Asteroid of Rev. 8 hits, in the Pacific Ocean just off the California/Mexico coastlines. On top of that the Pacific Oceans covers 1/3 of the worlds surface. See my Copy & Paste below:

The Pacific ocean is the largest ocean on Earth. It covers more than one-third of the Earth's surface and nearly half of the Earth's water surface. It has got the deepest point on Earth - the Mariana Trench.



So, I think God is giving us the destination of this asteroid impact via the 1/3 of the trees burning. So, the waters can be used in various different ways.

In Rev. 17 its speaking about False Religion, The Harlot, which is all over the whole world. But since both Americas are burning, IMHO, it is not relevant what is going on in the New World at that time.

So, one is speaking about a certain region where 7 Beasts arise, the other is speaking about False Religion.

 

[Jay Ross]

Where do they get this idea, no one ever had such a thing from the early church on down, must be a recent thing...

Really @Hobie, you have not yet had the eyes to see such a time gap for the beasts and the Little Horn and Satan who all are heavenly hosts.

Why you are not able to see what is plainly written in the scriptures, you will only post flawed understandings of the scriptures, like your quoted statement above.

Goodbye

 

[covenantee]

Where do they get this idea, no one ever had such a thing from the early church on down, must be a recent thing...

Darby and Scofield suffered from gap fever.

 

[Hobie]

Oh, Hobie you posted 4 relatively long posts, #63, #64, #65 and #66 all within a 35 minute period, from 9:58 pm until 10:33 pm, which tells me that you are cutting and pasting what others have written without providing where your source documents have come from.

One of the sights linked too in #63, rapturemyth.com provided no information as to who the site is linked too.

What you have posted, unless you have written all the material yourself, is definitely not in sync with the written scriptures. You have also used the historical record instead of the scriptures to support the theories that you present.

No where do you present the historical record that Babylon was desolated and desolated by the Siciliana Greek Empire around the year 120 BC and that it laid desolated and devasted for a period of two ages until 1926 AD when "God remembered Babylon the Great to give her the cup of the wine of the His fury and of His wrath." Another historical fact that you/they have chosen to ignore.

Why have you done this? Because it does not suit the narrative being presented. The picture being presented in your posts is that the Kingdoms and Empires that that have had dominion over the Land of Babylon are the beasts also of Daniel 7 but these kingdoms and empires may have inhabited the respective domains of the five beasts of Daniel 7 but they are not the actual beasts, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts that are able to exercise influence over people groups, kingdoms, nations and empire.

Why does Isaiah 24:21-22 speak of the hosts in heaven and the kings of the earth being judged and gathered together to be imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their punishment. The time of this collective judgement will take place when the kings of the earth are gathered at Armageddon in around 20 years' time.

Hobbie there are too many holes in the theories that you are presenting so authoritatively based on your dependence of history to support the unbiblical theory that you hold too.

Without presenting the references to the articles that you have plagiarised within your above posts I can only conclude that all the material you present is flawed and should be treated like worthless salt and thrown onto the dung heap.

If you must post on this forum do so honestly.

Goodbye

Well, I have them in my notes, as I have for Sabbath School lessons, as well as need them for reference to prepare for sermons when I am called on in the schedule. So I apologize for posting so quickly, but the notes cant be one long text, as they have to be under categories, what they classify under, the section of the scriptures its related to, and other peoples studies which I try to give references, and the works online which I try to give links. But some links dont work anymore as after 20 plus years of being on the forums as moderator or poster, some are not there. Some sites have been taken down or the links dont work at all, and others I try to find a replacement for the links but the search engines seem to have been adjusted to no bring up certain ideas or works, not sure why but they dont come up.

 

[Hobie]

Really @Hobie, you have not yet had the eyes to see such a time gap for the beasts and the Little Horn and Satan who all are heavenly hosts.

Why you are not able to see what is plainly written in the scriptures, you will only post flawed understandings of the scriptures, like your quoted statement above.

Goodbye

That is just to stretch it to whatever time they feel like, and they do.......

 

[Hobie]

Darby and Scofield suffered from gap fever.

Ahh.. now I understand, much work they have done to twist and deceived and change the truth of what the early church, the Reformers, and the faithful followers since them, believed...

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, I have them in my notes, as I have for Sabbath School lessons, as well as need them for reference to prepare for sermons when I am called on in the schedule. So I apologize for posting so quickly, but the notes cant be one long text, as they have to be under categories, what they classify under, the section of the scriptures its related to, and other peoples studies which I try to give references, and the works online which I try to give links. But some links dont work anymore as after 20 plus years of being on the forums as moderator or poster, some are not there. Some sites have been taken down or the links dont work at all, and others I try to find a replacement for the links but the search engines seem to have been adjusted to no bring up certain ideas or works, not sure why but they dont come up.

So, if I understand your justification for your long postings, then you are probably posting SDA teaching on this forum which are theories from long ago which have not been updated for many years even though End Time events, which have been prophesied from long ago, are occurring such that they are relevant and observable for us to see today.

What may be acceptable within your denomination does not mean that what you post is God given or acceptable to God. Your historical proof that you use to justify your theories also do not stack up to close examinations.

Perhaps you should qualify your qualification as to why what you post should be taken seriously.

 

[Jay Ross]

That is just to stretch it to whatever time they feel like, and they do.......

Hobie, I am not a "they", I am a "me" who has taken time out with God to have revealed to "me" a very different understanding of what is happening within this present time period.

God has shown me that the time span between when Adam was created up and until the GWTR judgement can be determined from the Old Testament and these "gaps" in God's timeline are visible and observable for all to see who have hears to hear and eyes to see.

Why is it that you are both deaf and blind?

 

[Jay Ross]

Darby and Scofield suffered from gap fever.

Ahh.. now I understand, much work they have done to twist and deceived and change the truth of what the early church, the Reformers, and the faithful followers since them, believed...

So Hobie you can recognise what other teachers are doing to twist and deceive and change the truth of what the early church, the reformers and the faithful followers since then, believed.

Are you not also guilty of the same offence, because you are no different from others who believe(d) that they also have the truth just like you believe that only you have the truth.

 

[covenantee]

Are you not also guilty of the same offence, because you are no different from others who believe(d) that they also have the truth just like you believe that only you have the truth.

Explain how consensus of, and with, more than 17 centuries of defenders of the true faith, is "only you".

Conversely, "only you" accurately and fully describes your own illusory ideology.

 

[Phoneman777]

So lets take a look at the 'Little Horn' power we find in Daniel starting in chapter 7 and break Daniel into parts:
Daniel 7:2-4
7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Most everyone agrees this is Babylon.
Daniel 7:5
7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Same agreement that this is Medi-Persia
Daniel 7:6
7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Pretty much agreement this is Greece
Daniel 7:7
7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Here we see Pagan Rome with the ten horns, which are the nations which came up with it. We also get a description in Daniel 2..
Daniel 2:33 &41-43
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

We see how the nations of the empire progressed and become Western Civilization in Europe, and still have not been able to unite in the manner of the Roman Empire..
Daniel 7:20 &24
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

So the ten toes mixed with iron and clay are of the fourth Beast who subdues three of the kings, and the Little Horn also comes out from the fourth Beast:
Daniel 7:8
7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is Papal Rome, we see much agreement in history..

"Out of the ruins of political Rome, arose the great moral Empire in the 'giant form' of the Roman Church." – A.C. Flick, "The Rise of the Medieval Church," 1900, p. 150.

We see the three of the first horns...

The three kingdoms were to be plucked up to give place for the Papacy. This prediction found the exact fulfillment in the destruction of the three Arian kingdoms: the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths.

"I might cite that three that were eradicated from before the Pope out of the last first given; viz., the Heruli under Odoacer (AKA Odovacar), the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths."- 'Hora Apocalyptica, Vol. III, p. 168, Note 1, London: 1862.

Now we see in verse 8 and 25 that the little horn had eye`s like the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things and it "he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." or 1260 prophetic years.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Daniel 7:25
Dan 7:25. He shall speak words against the Most High and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

But at the end the Little Horn power or Papal Rome will be destroyed at the coming of Christ...
Daniel 7:26
Dan 7:26. But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

So we see several points of history which show who the Little Horn power is as it came to power from among the ten divisions of Europe which were the ten horns. It began as "a little horn" or a little power at its beginning then after the three uprooted horns, the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths were taken out of the way as history shows us. So is we look at the little horn, we see it has a man at its head and it is different than the others.
Daniel 7:8
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn, not only had temporal or "state" powers, but we see it starts to blaspheme 'mouth speaking great things', so the little horn was a "church-state" combination, and we see more.
Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The Little Horn would speak 'great words against the most High' or blasphemy. And we see the definition of blasphemy from the Bible is to claim to be God and/or to claim to be able to forgive sin. The Little Horn power would persecute or 'wear out the saints' and kill many of the faithful. And we see this in the Dark Ages, during the 'time and times and the dividing of time' or 1,260 years this Little Horn entity's persecutions brought the death of millions and the Little Horn power would think to change times and law. We have to study and discern what scripture tells on this Little Horn entity, and understand..

Well said...Protestant Historicism is the truth. Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism is are papal lies.

 

[Phoneman777]

No: - Babylon may be the first manifestation of the first wind of heaven which is the true beast.
What this quote is telling us is that the four winds of heaven stir up manifestations of themselves from among the people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires of the sea.

No: - Medi-Persia maybe a manifestation of the second wind of heaven which is the true beast.
No: - Greece maybe a manifestation of the third wind of heaven which is the true beast.
No : - Pagan Roman is not a manifestation of the fourth wind of heaven. This is a Reformation Father's construct to demonise the RCC.
The Manifestation of the fourth wind of heaven came around the 7th century AD and became a religion known as Islam that has influenced up to Ten kings/kingdoms around the world.

Hi, JR - know this: Everything I write is in the spirit of loving kindness. My style of writing which includes direct challenge and direct condemnation of ideas which should in no way should be intrepreted as rude or unkind. I speak the truth in love, friend. So, please, don't assume I'm attacking you because I'm not.

"Winds" are used repeatedly to represent general "strife among nations" at different times in Biblical history, so that we can't assign any specific nation to them.

As for "Babylon", the prophecies of Jeremiah and Isaiah concerning the coming Babylonian captivity both refer to "Babylon" as a "lion".

Remember, Peter tells us no prophecy can be of a "private interpretation" as is yours - we must ask the "holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" how to interpret the symbols, and when it comes to what a "lion" in prophecy represents, Jeremiah and Isaiah answer loud and clear.

With the help of the Little Horn this beast is speaking pompous words such as "Christ is not the Son of God." He is only a prophet who is less than Muhammad.

The "Little Horn" is the papacy. The "Beast" is the papacy. The "Whore riding the Beast" is the catholic church controlling the state aka the papacy, the "Man of Sin" is the papacy. This interpretation has been around since the early 1500's and can be shown clearly from Scripture. Jesuit Futurist ideas about a future coming antichrist had only begun growing popular among Protestants in just the last 150 years or so.

This is the iniquity of the Amorite people that God said would not be complete when some of Abraham's descendants returned to the land of Canaan and formed a nation in 1948 AD, in Genesis 15:16.

Israel ceased to have any end times prophetic significance when the 70 Weeks "Israeli probation" prophecy closed in 34 A.D. when the Gospel finally went to the Gentiles. That's why Paul refers to the church as "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:15-16 KJV.

You can read the Bible from cover to cover, and you'll not find a single instance where God gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for disobedience without them first repenting. Has "Israel" ever repented for murdering Jesus and accepted Him as their Messiah?

1948 was the work of U.S., U.N., and papal intrigue - not God.

The reformation fathers wrongly used scripture to interpret Daniel 7 through the use of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy.

They interpretations were spot on.

The Statue prophecy told to Neb by Daniel only deals with nations and empires that have and have had dominion over the land of Babylon.

Not so - prophecy moves West to East. Babylon fell at the hands of MP, then MP at the hands of Greece, and so on.

It gives us an outline of the first three segments of the statue, but the prophecy provides no clues as to the nation that is the fourth segment of the statue,

The legs of "iron" and the fourth beast with "iron" teeth clearly point to the "iron monarchy of Rome" which came from the West and conquered the Macedonian Empire.

and the text suggests that Daniel was somewhat surprised because oof the time gap of some two ages that would occur between the third and the fourth segment of the Statue as Jeremiah prophesied in Jeremaih 50-51. From the historical record we know that Babylon was desolated and devastated around the year 120 BC, some 60 years before the Roman Empire came onto the world state and the Land of Babylon was remembered once more before God in the year 1926 when France and England established a nation over the land of Babylon and called this nation Iraq.

There's no time gap. As each nation falls, the other rises up on the heels of it, including the papacy which rose after Rome fell, and is still here today, healing from it's "deadly wound".

The other claim that has been used is that the segments of the Statue prophecy all had dominion over the Land of Canaan and Israel, but since the Roman Empire had no dominion over the Land of Babylon then this false understanding also falls by the wayside.

Rome didn't have dominion over "people" in the land of Babylon because Isaiah had already prophesied that it would be destroyed and never rebuilt and never re-inhabited. If God had not ordained it so and Babylon had been rebuilt, you can be assured Rome would get their tribute money...or else.

The Daniel 7:20, 24 quote above is of a future four facetted beast that rises up out of the Bottomless Pit after it is released just over 1,000 years from now.

This depicts the rise of the Ten Barbarian nations which arose after the fall of the Roman Empire - and the "Little Horn" papal power which came up among those Ten.

There's no "gaps" in prophecy, not here nor in the 70 Weeks, as some suggest.

Hobbie sadly you are continuing the "lies" of the Reformation fathers, who also trampled on God's earthly hosts during their time on the earth under the influence of the Little Horn, in their attempt to demonise the RCC.

They told the truth, and proved it from Scripture. What's sad is that the recipients of God's mercy in putting a stop to over 1,000 years of papal tyranny - modern day "Protestantism" - are blind to the truth because they're no longer protesting.

What I am seeing in your arguments is your grasping at straws to continue the justification of the Reformations fathers views against the RCC.

What I am seeing is "protestants" who no longer protest Rome, mainly because they don't understand church history or the threat Rome poses to the truth.

Let us be generous and accept that both the RCC and the reformation fathers have made many mistakes in their understanding of the scriptures.

God went out of His way to tell us specifically that "beasts" and "horns" represent kingdoms, but not a word from Him saying that "winds" represent them...your fatal mistake is choosing to interpret "winds" as "beasts" instead of properly "strife/warfare" which throws your entire prophetic timeline off.

We all, both the Reformation Churches and the RCC, need to repent of the iniquities that we have committed so that we redeem ourselves and become acceptable and righteous before God.

The RCC will never repent, which is why God identifies her as the Whore of Rev 17. The "Reformation churches" of today comprise the "False Prophet" which claim "Sola Scriptura" but can't find a single text authorizing Sunday "sacredness" or anything else they scooped up from "the Roman dunghill of decretals".

If anything, we need to learn from the mistakes of the past and to not repeat them over and over again like what is occurring in the USA at this present time where on political party is demonising the other political party in an attempt to gain power in their own right.

Shalom

The U.S. is the Second Beast which will cause everyone to bow to the First Beast - the papacy. Friend, please reconsider your positions, and at least give Protestant Historicism the attention it deserves, before denouncing it. I'm happy to answer any questions I'm able to any time. Peace!

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi, JR - know this: Everything I write is in the spirit of loving kindness. My style of writing which includes direct challenge and direct condemnation of ideas which should in no way should be interpreted as rude or unkind. I speak the truth in love, friend. So, please, don't assume I'm attacking you because I'm not.

Oh Phoneman777, you are continuing the false understanding of Hobie and his brethren.

Rome didn't have dominion over "people" in the land of Babylon because Isaiah had already prophesied that it would be destroyed and never rebuilt and never re-inhabited. If God had not ordained it so and Babylon had been rebuilt, you can be assured Rome would get their tribute money...or else.

The above understanding is from a poor English translation of the Hebrew text where the context of the two ages of Babylon being Desolated and devastated has not been understood.

Just one wrongly understood verse and its context arrives at the picture that you have presented above.

Isaiah 13:17-22: -

17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans' pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall not be inhabited for a long period of time,
Such that it will not be dwelt in for two ages;
Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there,
Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there,
And their houses will be full of owls;
Ostriches will dwell there,
And wild goats will caper there.
22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels,
And jackals in their pleasant palaces.
Her time is near to come,
And her days will not be prolonged."

In this passage from Isaiah, Isaiah makes no mention of the Grecian Empire that had dominion over the land of the Chaldeans for around 250 years. However, Jeremiah makes mention of the king from the north that will make Babylon desolate and devastated for two ages: -

Jeremiah also gives the same prophecy in Jeremiah 50:33-40: -

33 Thus says the Lord of hosts:
"The children of Israel were oppressed,
Along with the children of Judah;
All who took them captive have held them fast;
They have refused to let them go.
34 Their Redeemer is strong;
The Lord of hosts is His name.
He will thoroughly plead their case,
That He may give rest to the earth,
And disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.
35 "A sword is against the Chaldeans," says the Lord,
"Against the inhabitants of Babylon,
And against her princes and her wise men.
36 A sword is against the soothsayers, and they will be fools.
A sword is against her mighty men, and they will be dismayed.
37 A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
38 A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the place of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols.
39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
Nor shall it be inhabited for a long period of time beyond our comprehension,
It shall not be dwelt in for two ages.
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbours," says the Lord,
"So, no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.

The Grecian Empire made Babylon desolate and devastated around 120 BC, around 60 years before the Roman Empire's presences was felt on the world stage.

Then two ages after this Babylon was recognised once more to feel the wrath of God's anger against her.

You are just as wrong as Hobie.

Goodbye

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh Phoneman777, you are continuing the false understanding of Hobie and his brethren.

"False"? Protestant Historicism is the only one that makes sense.

The above understanding is from a poor English translation of the Hebrew text where the context of the two ages of Babylon being Desolated and devastated has not been understood. Then two ages after this Babylon was recognised once more to feel the wrath of God's anger against her.

Isaiah says what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was to happen to Babylon...so, when you find the verse that says Sodom and Gomorrah was "rebuilt" and "re-inhabited" after "two generations" - I'll be ready to consider your idea about "wrongly translated Hebrew" which at this moment appears to be YOUR rendering of it.

 

[ewq1938]

Well said...Protestant Historicism is the truth. Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism is are papal lies.

Historicism is Preterism. The only truth is Protestant futurism, Post-trib Pre-mill. All end times prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The "Little Horn" is the papacy. The "Beast" is the papacy. The "Whore riding the Beast" is the catholic church controlling the state aka the papacy, the "Man of Sin" is the papacy. This interpretation has been around since the early 1500's and can be shown clearly from Scripture. Jesuit Futurist ideas about a future coming antichrist had only begun growing popular among Protestants in just the last 150 years or so.

Papacy?

I am well aware that many, especially preterists, have "interpreted" the Papal system to be the beast, however, I do not believe that will stand the test of Scripture.

Beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. I believe that this beast with the wound unto death is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Christ dealt this Kingdom a death blow for believers at the cross, breaking its authority on the earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage.

Genesis 3:15

• "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The woman is the kingdom of God on earth (the Church), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. But near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan is healed, and Satan's Kingdom again rises up and goes forth with great authority over the nations. Basically, it's the same New Covenant picture as delineated in Revelation chapter 20, but as a different symbolic picture.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical nations, wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, but on scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. The Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is NOT "THEE" beast. Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of any Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

What I witness here on the forum is the Papcy, Israel's 6 day War, Titus and the Romans, etc. etc. are nothing but all the fanciful ideas of man as he makes assumptions looking at the world around him as "proofs", but without sound Biblical validation.

I believe the Revelation is completed/consummated at the second coming. That is the completion of all things. At the sounding of the seventh and LAST trumpet, when there shall be time no more. To categorize it between Preterist and Futurist I certainly wouldn't do. I categorize it as the testimony of scripture.

 

[Hobie]

Well said...Protestant Historicism is the truth. Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism is are papal lies.

Yes, but sadly it has spread and confused many of the faithful. These were only to take what clearly showed the antichrist power in the time prophecy gives and put it to nothing in the past and a lie in the future.

 

[Hobie]

Papacy?

I am well aware that many, especially preterists, have "interpreted" the Papal system to be the beast, however, I do not believe that will stand the test of Scripture.

Beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule. I believe that this beast with the wound unto death is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Christ dealt this Kingdom a death blow for believers at the cross, breaking its authority on the earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage.

Genesis 3:15

• "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The woman is the kingdom of God on earth (the Church), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ. But near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan is healed, and Satan's Kingdom again rises up and goes forth with great authority over the nations. Basically, it's the same New Covenant picture as delineated in Revelation chapter 20, but as a different symbolic picture.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical nations, wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, but on scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism. The Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is NOT "THEE" beast. Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of any Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

What I witness here on the forum is the Papcy, Israel's 6 day War, Titus and the Romans, etc. etc. are nothing but all the fanciful ideas of man as he makes assumptions looking at the world around him as "proofs", but without sound Biblical validation.

I believe the Revelation is completed/consummated at the second coming. That is the completion of all things. At the sounding of the seventh and LAST trumpet, when there shall be time no more. To categorize it between Preterist and Futurist I certainly wouldn't do. I categorize it as the testimony of scripture.

So who still exists from time of the Roman Empire, and is able to reach more of world today through the man who leads it. Think that through....

 

[Jay Ross]

"False"? Protestant Historicism is the only one that makes sense.

Isaiah says what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was to happen to Babylon...so, when you find the verse that says Sodom and Gomorrah was "rebuilt" and "re-inhabited" after "two generations" - I'll be ready to consider your idea about "wrongly translated Hebrew" which at this moment appears to be YOUR rendering of it.

Perhaps you have not understood the Seventh Bowl Judgement in Revelation 16:17-21.

Revelation 16:17-21: - Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great turmoil, such a mighty and great turmoil as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Here is what is found on the internet: -

Historicists believe that prophetic interpretation reveals the entire course of history of the church from the writing of the Book of Daniel, some centuries before the close of the 1st century, to the end of time. Historicist interpretations have been criticized for inconsistencies, conjectures, and speculations and historicist readings of the Book of Revelation have been revised as new events occur and new figures emerge on the world scene.

Historicism was the belief held by the majority of the Protestant Reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Knox. The Catholic church tried to counter it with preterism and Futurism during the Counter-Reformation. This alternate view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, and is viewed as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy and the Pope with the antichrist.

One of the most influential aspects of the Protestant historicist paradigm was the speculation that the Pope could be the antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons and drama, books and broadside publication. Jesuit commentators developed alternate approaches that would later become known as preterism and futurism, and applied them to apocalyptic literature; Francisco Ribera developed a form of futurism (1590), and Luis de Alcazar a form of preterism, at the same period.

The historicist approach has been used in attempts to predict the date of the end of the world. An example in post-Reformation Britain is in the works of Charles Wesley, who predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1794, based on his analysis of the Book of Revelation. Adam Clarke, whose commentary was published in 1831, proposed a possible date of 2015 for the end of the papal power.

In 19th-century America, William Miller proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its eschatology. Millerites also formed other Adventist bodies, including the one that spawned the Watch Tower movement, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, who hold to their own unique historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy.

Source: - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah having a 2-age prophecy of being desolated and devastated, that is not found in the scriptures, but Babylon when it is finally receiving God's wrath, then God's wrath will be like the wrath that he poured over Sodom and Gomorrah. This is still a future event. When it will occur is God's determination and His alone.

Goodbye.[/quote]