Understanding the 'Little Horn' power of Prophecy in Daniel.

[Phoneman777]

Historicism is Preterism. The only truth is Protestant futurism, Post-trib Pre-mill. All end times prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

Friend, Protestant Historicism and Jesuit Preterism are nothing alike. Jesuit Preterism, as in the case of the Jesuit Futurism you subscribe to, were introduced to the world during the Protestant Reformation when the Reformers were preaching the "twin pillars of the Reformation - "faith alone" and "papal antichrist" - and the catholic church was losing members left right and center.

So, they fabricated Jesuit Preterism ("1st century antichrist") and Futurism ("tribulation antichrist") to point those looking for antichrist to the past, to the future (as you look) - anywhere except Rome.

 

[Phoneman777]

Perhaps you have not understood the Seventh Bowl Judgement in Revelation 16:17-21.

The 7 last plagues - which is still future.

Here is what is found on the internet: -

Source: - Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia.

I'm not aware of any inconsistencies with Historicism. Can you point some out for me?

As for Sodom and Gomorrah having a 2-age prophecy of being desolated and devastated, that is not found in the scriptures

OK, so since Isaiah said what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was going to happen to Babylon, and since there's no "2 ages" prophecy for Sodom and Gomorrah, we should conclude that "generation to generation" does not mean "2 ages" for Babylon, but means "perpetual"destruction - which is exactly what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[ewq1938]

Friend, Protestant Historicism and Jesuit Preterism are nothing alike. Jesuit Preterism, as in the case of the Jesuit Futurism you subscribe to, were introduced to the world during the Protestant Reformation when the Reformers were preaching the "twin pillars of the Reformation - "faith alone" and "papal antichrist" - and the catholic church was losing members left right and center.

So, they fabricated Jesuit Preterism ("1st century antichrist") and Futurism ("tribulation antichrist") to point those looking for antichrist to the past, to the future (as you look) - anywhere except Rome.

They don't teach the AC came in the past, and teach the AC comes in the future.

The SDA are wrong about the AC being a Pope anyways. Popes are of the many lesser ac's but not the singular one John said was yet to come, whom he wrote of in Rev by other names. The two beasts in Rev 13 are not Catholic or Papacy anything, nor is the woman babylon.

 

[Jay Ross]

The 7 last plagues - which is still future.

Perhaps if you looked at the historical witnesses in the Seventh Bowl Judgement/prophecy, you would have seen that the Seventh Bowl Judgement has already happened, and the Sixth Bowl Judgement is unfolding before us now and will be fulfilled within 20 or so years from now.

Perhaps your claim that we need to link prophetic prophecies with historical records is only true when done in the SDA way and for the purposes of the SDA's theological support.

I'm not aware of any inconsistencies with Historicism. Can you point some out for me?

In the Seventh Bowl Judgement, it states that Babylon will be remembered once more, which occurred in 1926 AD after the first great turmoil of WW1 with the defeat of the Otterman Empire.

Rev 16:19: - 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

By definition: - "historicism is a method of interpretation of biblical prophecies which associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events." That is what I have done above. It seems that you have a blind spot in your comprehension ability.

OK, so since Isaiah said what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was going to happen to Babylon, and since there's no "2 ages" prophecy for Sodom and Gomorrah, we should conclude that "generation to generation" does not mean "2 ages" for Babylon, but means "perpetual" destruction - which is exactly what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

This is a false argument that you present. The judgement that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is the same judgement and outcome that will happen to the Land of Babylon. Isaiah and Jeremiah both prophesied that Babylon would lay devastated and desolated for two ages. In Jeremiah 50, we are told that the prophetic word given in Jeremiah 50 would unfold while Israel was seeking God once more to find a way to Mt Zion. Since the Land of Babylon was remembered before God in 1926 AD after two ages of lying devastated and desolated for two age from the time that the Grecian Empire scattered the people of Babylon to the far corners of their empire until 1926 AD, your suggestion that "generation to generation" does not mean '2 ages' for Babylon, but means 'perpetual' destruction," is not true. Your argument confirms this when we consider the Historical facts of the matter.

All that you have done is proved that the SDA theological understanding within SDA circles is flawed and obviously very wrong.

Goodbye.

 

[ewq1938]

In the Seventh Bowl Judgement, it states that Babylon will be remembered once more, which occurred in 1926 AD after the first great turmoil of WW1 with the defeat of the Otterman Empire.

The only people I know of that speak about 1926 are Jehovah witnesses.

 

[Jay Ross]

The only people I know of that speak about 1926 are Jehovah witnesses.

Please tell me more about this claim.

 

[Phoneman777]

Papacy?

I am well aware that many, especially preterists, have "interpreted" the Papal system to be the beast, however, I do not believe that will stand the test of Scripture.

The Jesuits invented "Jesuit Preterism" and "Jesuit Futurism" to get the Reformers who were looking at Rome as the antichrist of Bible prophecy to look elsewhere: Jesuit Preterism said antichrist arose in the 1st century and was probably Nero or some other tyrant, while Jesuit Futurism says antichrist will arise during the so called "7 year tribulation"...so, any Jesuit Preterist who looks to Rome for Antichrist simply doesn't understand Jesuit Preterism.

Beasts are often symbolic of devouring kingdoms in scripture. The heads are symbolic of authorities. The horns are symbolic of its power. The crowns on the horns are symbolic of its rule.

Beasts, heads, and horns all mean "kingdoms". No need to impose distinctions where the Bible makes none.

I believe that this beast with the wound unto death is illustrative of the Kingdom of Satan. Christ dealt this Kingdom a death blow for believers at the cross, breaking its authority on the earth to deceive the nations and hold them in bondage.

The First Beast of Revelation 13 is the papacy, which recieved a "deadly wound" at the end of the 1,260 year rule (1798) at the same time the Second Beast was rising (the United States), but the wound is being healed and "all the world wondered after the Beast".

It should surprise no one that the most powerful religious system on Earth and the most powerful nation on Earth would be found referred to in Bible prophecy.

The woman is the kingdom of God on earth (the Church), the Serpent is Satan, ruler of the Kingdom of darkness, the woman's seed is Christ.

I agree.

But near the end of the world, this 'death' wound Christ dealt Satan is healed, and Satan's Kingdom again rises up and goes forth with great authority over the nations. Basically, it's the same New Covenant picture as delineated in Revelation chapter 20, but as a different symbolic picture.

Genesis 3:15 is referring to the Cross. When a man slams his foot down to crush a snake's head, sometimes he gets bitten on the heel just before that snake head goes pop.

That's what happened at the Cross: The instant Jesus breathed His last, Satan was doomed to death. Yet, Jesus the "Lamb of God" still had to rise from death and become Jesus our "High Priest" and officiate in the heavenly sanctuary where He is now. He exited the Holy Place and entered the Most Holy Place in 1844 and soon He will return.

Did you know back in 1863, the Seventh-day Adventist church became the first Christian denomination to hold as its core doctrine the soon coming of Jesus? It only took the rest of the Christian world ALMOST ONE HUNDRED YEARS to climb on board the Advent wagon when Billy Graham started preaching our message.

I do not take a Reformist, Historicist or Dispensational-type outlook on Revelation, focusing on physical nations, wars, Israel, or the Roman Catholic Church, but on scripture alone as the arbiter and interpreter of Revelation's symbolism.

I'm willing to be my entire 401K that you're waiting for a future antichrist as detailed by Jesuit Futurism.

The Roman Catholic Church is very well ruled by those against Christ, but the system most certainly is NOT "THEE" beast.

The very word "antichrist" means "instead of Christ" or "in behalf of Christ" or "for Christ" or "take the place of Christ". The papacy has claimed to be exactly that since its 538 A.D. inception.

Satan who rules it is, and he can make his kingdom part of any Church system, including the prideful and boastful Protestant Churches.

Not the SDA church. He's got nothin on "the people of the book".

What I witness here on the forum is the Papcy, Israel's 6 day War, Titus and the Romans, etc. etc. are nothing but all the fanciful ideas of man as he makes assumptions looking at the world around him as "proofs", but without sound Biblical validation.

Neither the descendants of the Russian Khazars who occupy a very tiny sliver of the ancient land of Israel nor their "six day war" have anything to do with end times prophecy. Paul says the church is the "Israel of God" and Abraham's descendants "belong to Christ".

I believe the Revelation is completed/consummated at the second coming. That is the completion of all things. At the sounding of the seventh and LAST trumpet, when there shall be time no more. To categorize it between Preterist and Futurist I certainly wouldn't do. I categorize it as the testimony of scripture.

We can't understand end times prophecy without a full understanding of the OT Sanctuary service, which NO ONE bothers to obtain.

Therefore, the book of Revelation has been relegated to a mere object of "hyper-sensationalism" where wild speculation provides non-stop entertainment while the church waits for Jesus to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints in the supposed "secret rapture".

 

[Phoneman777]

The only people I know of that speak about 1926 are Jehovah witnesses.

What's the significance of that date to them? Something to do with Abraham?

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, but sadly it has spread and confused many of the faithful. These were only to take what clearly showed the antichrist power in the time prophecy gives and put it to nothing in the past and a lie in the future.

What's astonishing is that you can show Christians what happened in church history - how the papacy invented Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism to get people looking for antichrist anywhere but in Rome - and they STILL insist on denying the truth of Protestant Historicism!

It seems Luther had a far easier time convincing catholics to abandon catholicism than we have convincing so called "Protestants" that we're supposed to PROTESTING the errors of Rome, not defending her tooth and nail SMH

 

[Phoneman777]

They don't teach the AC came in the past, and teach the AC comes in the future.

Jesuit Luiz Alcazar is credited with formulating "Jesuit Preterism".
Jesuit Francisco Ribera is credited with formulation "Jesuit Futurism"

Rome is happy for you to believe the one or the other, so long as you don't believe Protestant Historicism which says the papal antichrist arose in Rome.

The SDA are wrong about the AC being a Pope anyways. Popes are of the many lesser ac's but not the singular one John said was yet to come, whom he wrote of in Rev by other names. The two beasts in Rev 13 are not Catholic or Papacy anything, nor is the woman babylon.

The "spirit of antichrist" was alive in John's day. Back then, men seeking to dominate the church for selfish gain had to remain in the shadows and circulate unnoticed as they spread their lies. It wasn't until the 4th century when Christianity became legal that these cowards pushed and bullied their way into leadership, and by 538 A.D., these men began to impose their authority as absolute, driving out and persecuting those who refused to bow the knee. They dragged idols into the church. They began selling forgiveness. They began claiming salvation is by the priesthood and popes alone.

The papacy is absolutely the prophesied 7 headed Beast, Little Horn, Man of Sin, Whore of Revelation 17, etc.

 

[Phoneman777]

Perhaps if you looked at the historical witnesses in the Seventh Bowl Judgement/prophecy, you would have seen that the Seventh Bowl Judgement has already happened, and the Sixth Bowl Judgement is unfolding before us now and will be fulfilled within 20 or so years from now.

We must remember that when Jesus walks out of the Heavenly Sanctuary, prophetic time is no more which means the symbolism is no more. He walks out, takes off His priestly robes, puts on His royal robes, and comes back to get us.

The 7 Last Plagues are literal plagues which fall after Jesus exits the Heavenly Sanctuary - because Revelation 16 plainly tell us that the temple is empty and full of smoke meaning Jesus has left the building.

Perhaps your claim that we need to link prophetic prophecies with historical records is only true when done in the SDA way and for the purposes of the SDA's theological support.

No, it's true because it's the only way the prophetic timeline makes sense.

In the Seventh Bowl Judgement, it states that Babylon will be remembered once more, which occurred in 1926 AD after the first great turmoil of WW1 with the defeat of the Otterman Empire.

Babylon in Revelation can't be referring to literal Babylon, which - LIKE SODOM AND GOMORRAH - was never to be rebuilt.

By definition: - "historicism is a method of interpretation of biblical prophecies which associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events." That is what I have done above. It seems that you have a blind spot in your comprehension ability.

What blind spot, friend? We got all the I's dotted and the T's crossed

This is a false argument that you present. The judgement that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is the same judgement and outcome that will happen to the Land of Babylon. Isaiah and Jeremiah both prophesied that Babylon would lay devastated and desolated for two ages. In Jeremiah 50, we are told that the prophetic word given in Jeremiah 50 would unfold while Israel was seeking God once more to find a way to Mt Zion. Since the Land of Babylon was remembered before God in 1926 AD after two ages of lying devastated and desolated for two age from the time that the Grecian Empire scattered the people of Babylon to the far corners of their empire until 1926 AD, your suggestion that "generation to generation" does not mean '2 ages' for Babylon, but means 'perpetual' destruction," is not true. Your argument confirms this when we consider the Historical facts of the matter.

All that you have done is proved that the SDA theological understanding within SDA circles is flawed and obviously very wrong.

Goodbye.

How can you argue with air tight logic?

If Isaiah says what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is what will happen to Babylon, and if Sodom and Gomorrah were NEVER rebuilt, why do you insist that "poor Hebrew translation" is the reason we read "generation to generation" instead of "2 ages"?

No, there's nothing wrong wtih the Hebrew translation...unless you can find where Sodom and Gomorrah were REBUILT.

 

[Jay Ross]

We must remember that when Jesus walks out of the Heavenly Sanctuary, prophetic time is no more which means the symbolism is no more. He walks out, takes off His priestly robes, puts on His royal robes, and comes back to get us.

The 7 Last Plagues are literal plagues which fall after Jesus exits the Heavenly Sanctuary - because Revelation 16 plainly tell us that the temple is empty and full of smoke meaning Jesus has left the building.

Where is this found in the Scriptures so that your "theory" can be justified by reading it scriptures for ourselves.

No, it's true because it's the only way the prophetic timeline makes sense.

I agree with you when our understanding and interpretation of the scriptures is in line with what God had written. It seems to me that your interpretations and understanding are not even close to what is written in scripture. Provide the scriptures to justify your interpretations and understanding.

Babylon in Revelation can't be referring to literal Babylon, which - LIKE SODOM AND GOMORRAH - was never to be rebuilt.

But the land was repopulated, and people began living in the Land of Babylon after it was remembered once more before God in 1926 AD.

Sadly, what I read in Isaiah 13 does not support your theory that Babylon will never be rebuilt again. History proves that theory is wrong.

What blind spot, friend? We got all the I's dotted and the T's crossed

Who are the "we," Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse or Goofy? Without nominating who the "we" are, the claim is pointless.

How can you argue with air tight logic?

What air tight logic, yours?

If Isaiah says what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is what will happen to Babylon, and if Sodom and Gomorrah were NEVER rebuilt, why do you insist that "poor Hebrew translation" is the reason we read "generation to generation" instead of "2 ages"?

No, there's nothing wrong wtih the Hebrew translation...unless you can find where Sodom and Gomorrah were REBUILT.

How do you know there are no problems with our translations. You are being as blind as some other members on this forum.

Your understanding has been told to you and you are not capable to analyse the force-fed rubbish you have been feed.

When you have proof that you have an inkling of wisdom, then I would be interesting in how you respond.

Goodbye

 

[ewq1938]

Jesuit Luiz Alcazar is credited with formulating "Jesuit Preterism".
Jesuit Francisco Ribera is credited with formulation "Jesuit Futurism"

Rome is happy for you to believe the one or the other, so long as you don't believe Protestant Historicism which says the papal antichrist arose in Rome.

And satan is happy some Christians are not looking beyond Rome/RCC for the AC. All and I mean all Christian denominations deny the real/last AC in some way and your denomination is no different. The real AC won't be identified by most Christians which is how the prophecy of the apostasia takes place.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So who still exists from time of the Roman Empire, and is able to reach more of world today through the man who leads it. Think that through....

There's nothing to think about. You do not make any sense. Your interpretation is purely speculation based on history you tried to force it to interpret Bible prophecies. The prophecy concerning the little horn, beast, etc. has NOTHING to do with literal empire or even individual literal man.

 

[covenantee]

And satan is happy some Christians are not looking beyond Rome/RCC for the AC. All and I mean all Christian denominations deny the real/last AC in some way and your denomination is no different. The real AC won't be identified by most Christians which is how the prophecy of the apostasia takes place.

An unmistakably Riberanized delusionite.

 

[covenantee]

There's nothing to think about. You do not make any sense. Your interpretation is purely speculation based on history you tried to force it to interpret Bible prophecies. The prophecy concerning the little horn, beast, etc. has NOTHING to do with literal empire or even individual literal man.

Whom to believe?

You
or
The Reformers that God raised up to liberate His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression.

Hint?

 

[Phoneman777]

Where is this found in the Scriptures so that your "theory" can be justified by reading it scriptures for ourselves.

Time and time again, we see that what's local and literal in the OT is spiritual and worldwide in the NT. Just as Israel was protected from the 7 Last Plagues in Egypt, so the saints all over the world will be protected from God's ministry of wrath against sinners in the end.

The angel says "time shall be no more" after the 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are closed - but before the 7 Last Plagues fall.

But the land was repopulated, and people began living in the Land of Babylon after it was remembered once more before God in 1926 AD.

The ruins of Babylon are just that: ruins. There's no one living in the ruins. You can take a tour if you like and see for yourself. God said it would never be inhabited, except by wild animals.

Sadly, what I read in Isaiah 13 does not support your theory that Babylon will never be rebuilt again. History proves that theory is wrong.

Babylon is still in ruins, has never been rebuilt, and no one is living there. Whoever told you people were living in the ruins of Babylon don't know what they're talking about.

Who are the "we," Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse or Goofy? Without nominating who the "we" are, the claim is pointless.

Protestant Historicists, with SDAs augmenting the entire prophetic timeline with the truth of the Sanctuary.

What air tight logic, yours?

Since the idea of "4 winds = 4 kingdoms" is absolutely false, seeing there isn't a single verse that says that, we can safely begin the prophetic timeline with Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, Ten divisions of Rome, papacy, United States arising to force the world to bow to the papacy, Return of Jesus. Air tight.

How do you know there are no problems with our translations. You are being as blind as some other members on this forum.

I know because God said Babylon would be in the same condition as Sodom and Gomorrah after He got done with it - abandoned, ruined, desolate, uninhabited. Where do you get this ridiculous ideas about a 1926 habitation?

Your understanding has been told to you and you are not capable to analyse the force-fed rubbish you have been feed.

I can rip your "future antichrist" ideas to shreds with just my KJV because people who believe as you do not understand what the Bible is saying.

When you have proof that you have an inkling of wisdom, then I would be interesting in how you respond.

Goodbye

HISTORY proves you wrong. You need to go back and re-read Daniel 2 and learn the prophetic template which God follows in chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12.

 

[Phoneman777]

And satan is happy some Christians are not looking beyond Rome/RCC for the AC. All and I mean all Christian denominations deny the real/last AC in some way and your denomination is no different. The real AC won't be identified by most Christians which is how the prophecy of the apostasia takes place.

No, Satan is not happy at all when Protestant Historicism is preached. He is extremely happy with people like you who subscribe to his Jesuit's lie of a end time rise of antichrist.

 

[Jay Ross]

Time and time again, we see that what's local and literal in the OT is spiritual and worldwide in the NT. Just as Israel was protected from the 7 Last Plagues in Egypt, so the saints all over the world will be protected from God's ministry of wrath against sinners in the end.

The angel says "time shall be no more" after the 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are closed - but before the 7 Last Plagues fall.

Hearsay, so far on your part. Present the scriptures that backs up your theory of the end times.

The ruins of Babylon are just that: ruins. There's no one living in the ruins. You can take a tour if you like and see for yourself. God said it would never be inhabited, except by wild animals.

Where are the columns of Salt and the beds of sulphur that make the landscape of Babylon similar to what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah? If as you say the ruins of Babylon suffered the same fate as Sodom of Gomorrah one would expect to find the same sort of evidence. I have read no evidence that suggest that the landscapes are the same. As for the size of Babylon, that is not clearly recorded. What is recorded in some historical accounts is that the Grecian Empire dismantled all of the utility structures of Babylon and carted them off and rebuilt them throughout the eastern Grecian Empires domain. The people were also taken away and resettled throughout the eastern Grecian Empire. If this is true, then there would be few ruins that could be pointed to that would indicate the extent of Babylon/the Land of the Chaldeans.

You are showing that you are even cherry picking the Historical records as well as the scriptures.

Protestant Historicists, with SDAs augmenting the entire prophetic timeline with the truth of the Sanctuary.

So like Hobbie you are an SDA adherent and any other proof that shows that you have a flawed understanding are to be ignored. As for you claim that the sanctuary holds the truth, the Sanctuary of the Temple also no longer exists.

Since the idea of "4 winds = 4 kingdoms" is absolutely false, seeing there isn't a single verse that says that, we can safely begin the prophetic timeline with Babylon, MP, Greece, Rome, Ten divisions of Rome, papacy, United States arising to force the world to bow to the papacy, Return of Jesus. Air tight.

Since I never claimed that the four winds of heavens equal four kingdoms you are painting a false picture of what I have posted. What I have consistently stated is that the four winds of heaven are four wicked fallen spiritual entities, namely angels that have rebelled against God who are able to influence people groups, kingdoms, nations and Empires to inhabit their respective domains showing the dominate characteristic of the four angel beasts. Now the third angel beast's main characteristic is dominion and power and the people who inhabit the Third beasts domain will also exhibit this dominate characteristic over other people. In other words the four beastly angels are able to manifest themselves in people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires to do the wishes of the respective beasts.

That is why in history we are able to see various people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires ebbing and flowing in and out of the influence of the four respective angel beasts.

Your list of nations of the Babylonians, Medes Persians, Greek, Roman, English, German, Russian the USA etc. have all inhabited the dominion of the Third beast which has had up to four different regional powers doing its bidding.

I know because God said Babylon would be in the same condition as Sodom and Gomorrah after He got done with it - abandoned, ruined, desolate, uninhabited. Where do you get this ridiculous ideas about a 1926 habitation?

Actually, directly from God's word in the 7th Bowl Judgement and History.

Sadly, you are caught up in your misunderstanding of Isaiah 13 re Sodom and Gomorrah and what God was conveying with their respective eventual demise.

I can rip your "future antichrist" ideas to shreds with just my KJV because people who believe as you do not understand what the Bible is saying.

I have not broached the Antichrist in this thread from memory. Another false red herring argument on your part.

HISTORY proves you wrong. You need to go back and re-read Daniel 2 and learn the prophetic template which God follows in chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12.

Sadly, the reformation father tried to link the Statue prophecy in Daniel 2 with the Daniel 7 beast prophecies when the subject matter of these two prophecies addresses different subject matters.

Daniel 2's Statue prophecy only deal with Nations, kingdoms and Empires that have had and are presently having dominion over the Land of Babylon whereas the Daniel 7 Beast prophecies deals with the demonic nature of the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, i.e., angels, who work in tandem with Satan to bring about a very different outcome for all the peoples of the earth by leading many astray into unrighteous.

It is for this reason that I consider that you, as well as many others, have willingly become a good and faithful servant of Satan and doing his bidding.

Fortunately, the unfolding of time will determine who is really a good and faithful servant of Satan.

Goodbye

Goodbye

 

[ewq1938]

No, Satan is not happy at all when Protestant Historicism is preached. He is extremely happy with people like you who subscribe to his Jesuit's lie of a end time rise of antichrist.

My beliefs stems from scripture not teachings of those whom I have never read.


1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


A singular person as AC who shall come. My beliefs are based on scripture.