Can a tare become saved?

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Spiritual Israelite

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What I believe is this. Both OSAS and NOSAS are Biblical rather than only one is the other isn't. That might sound contradictory, yet it isn't.
Except that it clearly is contradictory. It can't both be true that once a person is saved they can't lose their salvation and once a person is saved they can lose their salvation. Make up your mind.

Take Paul, for example. Obviously, OSAS is applicable to him since he remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. While OTOH, someone like Judas never remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. In his case NOSAS is applicable. Therefore, when I say NOSAS is Biblical I am not denying that OSAS is Biblical. Yet, someone who insists only OSAS is Biblical is denying that NOSAS is Biblical. Unlike these, I'm not remotely saying only NOSAS is Biblical which would mean OSAS is not Biblical.
What OSAS means to everyone but you is that once a person is saved there is no chance that they can lose their salvation. For some reason you are creating your own definition of OSAS than anyone else does and making it refer to anyone who is saved and never loses their salvation. This only causes confusion when you use a different definition for a term (OSAS) than everyone else does.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I guess that's debatable about Judas then, in regards to whether he was initially saved or not. I mentioned him since I assumed everyone agrees that he wasn't in a saved state when he died.
He clearly wasn't saved when he died. Jesus said he was lost, called him "a devil" and said it would've been better if he had never been born.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
 
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Brakelite

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This is plainly not true…no one is born a child of God or a child of the devil…..we are all born as a virtual blank canvas. Many factors will determine whose “child“ we prove ourselves to be as we grow to maturity…..it will be by the choices we make and the kind of person we become, that will determine whom we choose as our spiritual Father.

1 John:3:10-12…
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”

Its all about what we practice. IOW, our actions speak louder than our words. We can all claim to be “Christians”, but it’s our choices of belief and action that prove or disprove our claim. Our beliefs spill over into our actions and attitude…..so our beliefs and actions determine who our “Father” is.
We are born with an hereditary proclivity to selfishness, which is sin. That sin nature needs to be dealt with, and it doesn't disappear through our good works out self determination. We cannot self operate to change our hearts. Which is why Jesus said, ye must be born again. Spiritual rebirth is the absolute essential step towards the kingdom of heaven. And the rebirth comes only through repentance, and faith in Christ.
Except that it clearly is contradictory. It can't both be true that once a person is saved they can't lose their salvation and once a person is saved they can lose their salvation. Make up your mind.


What OSAS means to everyone but you is that once a person is saved there is no chance that they can lose their salvation. For some reason you are creating your own definition of OSAS than anyone else does and making it refer to anyone who is saved and never loses their salvation. This only causes confusion when you use a different definition for a term (OSAS) than everyone else does.
OSAS is a thing, absolutely. But it's conditional. Conditional on obedience, and faithfulness.
NOSAS is also conditional. Any falling away is dependant on our choices, and it would indeed be a rare thing for a Christian who as the scripture says, tasted of the heavenly kingdom and the glories of salvation, to deliberately choose against such a destiny. However, through neglect, selfish pleasure seeking, imbibing of the things of this world, one can slowly fall away to the point where he has lost interest, and loses his salvation through being overcome by sin and the lusts of the flesh and eyes. The Shepherd of course will not give up. Many a case of a "prodigal" coming back to faith through the grace and persistence of a loving Saviour has been recorded. Point is this. God is not arbitrary in His love towards man. He always offers us choices. Love is not love except there be a choice involved. And God desires we love Him. He cannot and does not compel us to love. We must choose to love God. And we exercise that choice through obedience to His commandments. The final judgement is based on fruit.
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments" wasn't a random half pie suggestion. Obedience is and always has been, even since the garden of Eden, the evidence of true discipleship and genuine faith.
 
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Dash RipRock

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I don’t think it’s possible for a tare to become saved.

All things are possible with God, according to Jesus

Too bad God's Word is not part of the conversation and people are willing to tell perceived tares there is no hope for them and they don't even reach out to people because they believe there is no hope for them.

What a croc of garbage!
 

Brakelite

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There is definitely an element of the free will vs election debate in the parable along with whether Satan is bound or not.
I disagree. Those elements appear only as one from the outside chooses to introduce them.
The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God.
"He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man.... The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one." The good seed represents those who are born of the word of God, the truth. The tares represent a class who are the fruit or embodiment of error, of false principles. "The enemy that sowed them is the devil." Neither God nor His angels ever sowed a seed that would produce a tare. The tares are always sown by Satan, the enemy of God and man.
In the East, men sometimes took revenge upon an enemy by strewing his newly sown fields with the seeds of some noxious weed that, while growing, closely resembled wheat. Springing up with the wheat, it injured the crop and brought trouble and loss to the owner of the field. So it is from enmity to Christ that Satan scatters his evil seed among the good grain of the kingdom. The fruit of his sowing he attributes to the Son of God. By bringing into the church those who bear Christ's name while they deny His character, the wicked one causes that God shall be dishonored, the work of salvation misrepresented, and souls imperiled.
Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest."
Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive. He knows our nature too well to entrust this work to us. Should we try to uproot from the church those whom we suppose to be spurious Christians, we should be sure to make mistakes. Often we regard as hopeless subjects the very ones whom Christ is drawing to Himself. Were we to deal with these souls according to our imperfect judgment, it would perhaps extinguish their last hope. Many who think themselves Christians will at last be found wanting. Many will be in heaven who their neighbors supposed would never enter there. Man judges from appearance, but God judges the heart. The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time.
There is in the Saviour's words another lesson, a lesson of wonderful forbearance and tender love. As the tares have their roots closely intertwined with those of the good grain, so false brethren in the church may be closely linked with true disciples. The real character of these pretended believers is not fully manifested. Were they to be separated from the church, others might be caused to stumble, who but for this would have remained steadfast.
The teaching of this parable is illustrated in God's own dealing with men and angels. Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God's goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain. And shall we not be as forbearing toward our fellow men as the Lord of heaven and earth is toward Satan?
The world has no right to doubt the truth of Christianity because there are unworthy members in the church, nor should Christians become disheartened because of these false brethren. How was it with the early church? Ananias and Sapphira joined themselves to the disciples. Simon Magus was baptized. Demas, who forsook Paul, had been counted a believer. Judas Iscariot was numbered with the apostles. The Redeemer does not want to lose one soul; His experience with Judas is recorded to show His long patience with perverse human nature; and He bids us bear with it as He has borne. He has said that false brethren will be found in the church till the close of time.
Notwithstanding Christ's warning, men have sought to uproot the tares. To punish those who were supposed to be evildoers, the church has had recourse to the civil power. Those who differed from the established doctrines have been imprisoned, put to torture and to death, at the instigation of men who claimed to be acting under the sanction of Christ. But it is the spirit of Satan, not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts. This is Satan's own method of bringing the world under his dominion. God has been misrepresented through the church by this way of dealing with those supposed to be heretics.
Not judgment and condemnation of others, but humility and distrust of self, is the teaching of Christ's parable. Not all that is sown in the field is good grain. The fact that men are in the church does not prove them Christians.
The tares closely resembled the wheat while the blades were green; but when the field was white for the harvest, the worthless weeds bore no likeness to the wheat that bowed under the weight of its full, ripe heads. Sinners who make a pretension of piety mingle for a time with the true followers of Christ, and the semblance of Christianity is calculated to deceive many; but in the harvest of the world there will be no likeness between good and evil. Then those who have joined the church, but who have not joined Christ, will be manifest.
The tares are permitted to grow among the wheat, to have all the advantage of sun and shower; but in the time of harvest ye shall "return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." Malachi 3:18. Christ Himself will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works. Profession is as nothing in the scale. It is character that decides destiny.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Of all that the father gives me I shall lose none.

Seems pretty absolute to me.
Read all of scripture, not just some here and there.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
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Davidpt

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Except that it clearly is contradictory. It can't both be true that once a person is saved they can't lose their salvation and once a person is saved they can lose their salvation. Make up your mind.


What OSAS means to everyone but you is that once a person is saved there is no chance that they can lose their salvation. For some reason you are creating your own definition of OSAS than anyone else does and making it refer to anyone who is saved and never loses their salvation. This only causes confusion when you use a different definition for a term (OSAS) than everyone else does.

Why can't you grasp that I am only arguing against that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't? Are you seriously going to argue that OSAS is not Biblical? That there is not one single person once saved always saved, that every single saved person goes to hell? That's what it would mean if OSAS is not true in some cases. There is difference between all of the following.

1. Only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

2. Only NOSAS is Biblical, OSAS isn't.

2. denies that someone such as Paul, was once saved always saved.

It is preposterous that 1. is true. It is equally preposterous that 2. is true.

But at least I undeniably 100% debunked that NOSAS is not Biblical. Anyone reading that post no longer has an excuse. They can no longer insist that if someone falls away this means they were never saved to begin with. Nor can they any longer insist that if they fall away they still remained saved. They cannot get past the fact that it is impossible to be graffed into the good olive tree without it involving being saved. Nor can they get past the fact to be cut-off means to be lost. Therefore, any Gentile graffed into the good olive tree, then cut-off from it for whatever reason, equals a Christian that has lost their salvation. Equals NOSAS. Case closed.

It wouldn't surprise me even though you already agree that NOSAS is Biblical, that you disagree that I 100% debunked that NOSAS is not Biblical.
 
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grafted branch

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All things are possible with God, according to Jesus

Too bad God's Word is not part of the conversation and people are willing to tell perceived tares there is no hope for them and they don't even reach out to people because they believe there is no hope for them.
Well, in our physical reality, tares never grow up to become wheat, that’s a fact. No matter how much you fertilize, water, and nurture that tare it’s not going to become wheat. But it seams some people are so sure they have the correct interpretation of the parable that they are willing to ignore this reality thus approving a method of interpreting parables which I can’t find being done on any other parable.

What a croc of garbage!
I hope you realize there are interpretations of the parable that don’t have the tares meaning all the unsaved in general. Unless you can show me another parable that is interpret based on a false reality, the croc is claiming a tare can grow up to be wheat.
 
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grafted branch

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Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive. He knows our nature too well to entrust this work to us. Should we try to uproot from the church those whom we suppose to be spurious Christians, we should be sure to make mistakes.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

If a tare can’t be excommunicated then a tare can’t represent all the unsaved in general, a tare could only represents a certain kind of unsaved person, right? So any interpretation of the parable that sees the tares as all the unsaved has to be incorrect, right? I hope we can agree on this point.
 
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Davidpt

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Well, in our physical reality, tares never grow up to become wheat, that’s a fact. No matter how much you fertilize, water, and nurture that tare it’s not going to become wheat. But it seams some people are so sure they have the correct interpretation of the parable that they are willing to ignore this reality thus approving a method of interpreting parables which I can’t find being done on any other parable.


I hope you realize there are interpretations of the parable that don’t have the tares meaning all the unsaved in general. Unless you can show me another parable that is interpret based on a false reality, the croc is claiming a tare can grow up to be wheat.

An interesting question to explore might be this. Do tares know they are tares? For example. If a tare equals a wolf in sheep's clothing, do they know they are a wolf in sheep's clothing?
 
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Behold

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So I’m asking a simple question, can a tare become saved?

What is a "Tare", but a lost sinner.

What is a "Saint" but a former Tare who is now born again.

We are all sinners....so, we are all "Tares" until we become BELIEVERS, = born again "in Christ".
This means that any "TARE" is welcome "by faith".... to The Gift of The Cross by the Grace of God, "in the time of the Gentiles" for as long as they are living.
 

grafted branch

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An interesting question to explore might be this. Do tares know they are tares? For example. If a tare equals a wolf in sheep's clothing, do they know they are a wolf in sheep's clothing?
I would say no, I think we all agree that tares closely resemble wheat, at least for a while, which would imply if one examines themselves during that time they also would have a difficult time telling the difference.

And there is Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I would say this verse could very well be referring to the tares.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why can't you grasp that I am only arguing against that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't? Are you seriously going to argue that OSAS is not Biblical? That there is not one single person once saved always saved, that every single saved person goes to hell?
Of course I'm not arguing that. Did you even read my post? I said that most people define OSAS like this: once a person is saved there is no chance that they can lose their salvation. In other words, most people define OSAS to mean that no one can ever lose their salvation. So, with that definition, OSAS and NOSAS can't both be true. You are defining OSAS differently than everyone else.

But at least I undeniably 100% debunked that NOSAS is not Biblical.
Yes, that much I disagree with. I just don't understand why you decide to define OSAS differently than everyone else.

Anyone reading that post no longer has an excuse. They can no longer insist that if someone falls away this means they were never saved to begin with. Nor can they any longer insist that if they fall away they still remained saved. They cannot get past the fact that it is impossible to be graffed into the good olive tree without it involving being saved. Nor can they get past the fact to be cut-off means to be lost. Therefore, any Gentile graffed into the good olive tree, then cut-off from it for whatever reason, equals a Christian that has lost their salvation. Equals NOSAS. Case closed.
I agree with that.

It wouldn't surprise me even though you already agree that NOSAS is Biblical, that you disagree that I 100% debunked that NOSAS is not Biblical.
LOL. You are funny.
 

grafted branch

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What is a "Tare", but a lost sinner.

What is a "Saint" but a former Tare who is now born again.

We are all sinners....so, we are all "Tares" until we become BELIEVERS, = born again "in Christ".
This means that any "TARE" is welcome "by faith".... to The Gift of The Cross by the Grace of God, "in the time of the Gentiles" for as long as they are living.
Was Hitler a tare? Should we have let him grow together with us until the harvest?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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An interesting question to explore might be this. Do tares know they are tares? For example. If a tare equals a wolf in sheep's clothing, do they know they are a wolf in sheep's clothing?
I would say some do and some don't. Some purposely deceive for financial gain or some other reason that benefits them and some are deceived themselves, but believe they have the truth and then lead others to believe the same lies that they believe.
 

Behold

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Was Hitler a tare? Should we have let him grow together with us until the harvest?

Hitler, was a sinner.

Everyone is.... as "All have sinned, there is NONE righteous, no not one".

And....."Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".... John 3:16........and so, we all quality for Salvation, as we have all sinned, including Hitler.

Hitler, just like Elvis, and just like the next Pope........are sinners.......so, they qualified for Salvation, as its our SIN that qualifies us all for Forgiveness, Through The Cross of Christ.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I would say no, I think we all agree that tares closely resemble wheat, at least for a while, which would imply if one examines themselves during that time they also would have a difficult time telling the difference.

And there is Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I would say this verse could very well be referring to the tares.
Nowhere in the parable does it say that the tares resemble the wheat in the way you are saying. Instead, it says the wheat are children of the kingdom and that tares are children of the wicked one (Matthew 13:38). For the most part, children of the wicked one do not resemble children of the kingdom spiritually.
 

Behold

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children of the kingdom

The born again are the "children of the Kingdom"....as that is how you become a Child of God.....or a Child of the KOG.
and that tares are children of the wicked one

Everyone before they are born again, is this....>"YOU are of YOUR FATHER.. the DEVIL, and the Lusts of YOUR FATHER, you shall do".

This is why everyone LOVES TO SIN....... = That is every human being, until....they are born again by our Heavenly Father, into The Kingdom of God.