The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.
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CadyandZoe
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Did Jesus say that when he comes, it would be the end of the world? I don't think he did.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm not taking a "spiritual meaning" to it. Good grief, man. Please grow up. It can, even as written, be seen as two or three questions. We agree that His second coming and the end of the age occur at the same time, right? So, with that being the case, I don't think it really matters if we see it as two or three questions.
And, what does He say happens to the unsaved at that point (Matt 25:41)? They are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
Who are these survivors? You said above that they saved at that point will not have mortal bodies. It says the unsaved will be cast into everlasting fire at that point. So, who are these mortal survivors that you're talking about? And, why are you interpreting Isaiah 65:17-25 in such a way that contradicts Revelation 21:1-5?
I disagree. I think "the furnace of fire" Jesus said they will be cast into is the same as the lake of fire. But, do you then have the wheat having immortal bodies at that point the same way you understand the sheep/saved in Matthew 25:31-46? If so, where do the mortals come from that you think will populate the earth at that point?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You saw that I said "the world/age", right? And I did reference Matthew 24:3 in that post. The Greek word is aion. It's a word that describes time rather than a place. So, look at this...
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age, Greek: aion)?
Do you think that Jesus will come at some other time than at the end of the world/age? If so, do you think the disciples asked 3 entirely separate questions in the Olivet Discourse?
This and also by inference from other scriptures, Like Peter says in 2 Peter 3, we know it is the end of the world and the beginning of a new world.
Specifically though, Matthew 24
2 Peter 3, this is the Day Christ returns
The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.Hebrews 2:5
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Hebrews 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 1
10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
Revelation 6
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The end of the age isn't necessarily the end of the world.
He comes at the end of the Age, not the end of the World.
They were asking one question three different ways. Jesus told his disciples that the temple would be torn down and destroyed. This would have come as quite a shock. For many Jews, the Temple was the heart of their faith, the place where God's presence dwelt and where His covenant with Israel was reaffirmed through worship and sacrifice. To see it reduced to ruins would have been deeply unsettling.
God spoke to Ezekiel and told him, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever." Without a temple, God's word to Ezekiel would fail. Ezekiel also described a prince who would live in the temple. The Prince of Ezekiel 37 is a Messianic figure, Jesus Christ, who would live in the temple and rule over the world. fulfilling the Davidic Covenant and reigning over a restored Israel.
The disciples held a deep conviction that Jesus would ascend to his rightful position as King, poised to make his grand entrance into Jerusalem through the magnificent temple complex. They envisioned this moment as the fulfillment of the ancient Davidic covenant, anticipating that it would herald not only a restoration of Israel's glory but also the defeat of Rome and the subjugation of all their adversaries. In their minds, the image of a foreign army laying waste to the temple ran counter to their hopes and expectations of a triumphant Messiah, whose reign would bring peace and liberation to their people.
Malachi 3:1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.
The prophet Malachi says that God is going to send his messenger (and we know him to be Jesus Christ) who will come suddenly to his temple. Without a temple, God's word will fail. And so the disciples, upon hearing that the temple would be destroyed, questioned whether he was the one of whom the prophet spoke. If the sign of your coming doesn't involve the temple as Malachi said, then what IS the sign of your coming?
Matthew 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
the end of the age
The end of the age isn't the end of the world, or the beginning of the New Heavens and the new earth. The end of the Age is the restoration of Israel, and the age when God rules over Israel and the entire world. This age is known as the "Day of the Lord."
The Day of the Lord is understood as a time when God exercises His rule over the earth, bringing judgment and restoration. In biblical prophecy, it refers to divine intervention in world events.
Many passages describe the Day of the Lord as a time when God will judge the nations, defeat His enemies, and establish His kingdom. Zechariah 14:9 states, “The LORD will be king over all the earth”, reinforcing the idea that this day marks a transition to God’s direct reign over humanity.
According to Jesus, God will allow his temple to be utterly destroyed, which is a contradictory picture as compared to the Day of the Lord.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You don't like what the apostle Peter wrote then
IF the heavens pass away, they are gone. Elements melt with fervent heat, you know the nuclear bonds in atoms, when they break. release tremendous energy as tremendous levels of explosive heat in a fiery destruction and a great amount of noise.
There is an amazing amount of energy contained in atomic matter. Everything burns up, heaven burns too.
And they must be replaced with something new is how I read this. When stuff burns up, it is trashed, gone, no longer what it was, much ceases to exist, turns to ashes. Even metals vaporize with enough heat.
God sustains everything with the word of His power; in Him all things hold together. It is no stretch to think God can simply loose the bonds that hold all things together and start fresh. God created heaven and earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th, for the sake of man which God had created in His image, as for to follow as an example for him to work 6 days and rest on the 7th day. God could have done it all in one second of time.
2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Peter was unfamiliar with the intricate concepts of atoms or nuclear bonds. To him, the word "elements" had a different meaning, one rooted in the fundamental components of a system, particularly the Jewish religious system. In Judaism, the Oral Tradition, commonly referred to as the Talmud, serves as a comprehensive record of legal precedents rooted in the teachings and interpretations of various rabbis throughout the generations. This vast body of work encapsulates discussions, debates, and rulings that shape Jewish law and practice. However, Jesus expressed criticism towards the scribes and Pharisees, highlighting their tendency to prioritize their established traditions over the fundamental laws given by Moses. He believed that this elevation of oral traditions overshadowed the true intent of the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, there is a prophetic imagery that speaks of God dispatching His armies of fire to purify Israel, a divine intervention meant to rid the land of the "elements" associated with the rabbinical system—suggesting a profound cleansing that goes beyond mere physicality to address spiritual corruption.
Elements = religious rules
When Jesus returns, he will rule over Israel during a time when God has destroyed man's traditions.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The Holy Spirit who inspired him was not unfamiliar with those concepts. How do you know what Peter was familiar with? You don't. Anyone being inspired by the Holy Spirit can potentially become familiar with anything that God is familiar with, which, obviously, is everything.
How do you suppose that Moses knew how God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them, as described in Genesis 1 and 2? Was it because he was familiar with advanced scientific insight into the origins of the universe due to his advanced scientific studies or was it because it was revealed to him by God?
How do you suppose that Job was familiar with advanced scientific knowledge well ahead of his time? Because he was an advanced scientist of some kind and had familiarity with studying advanced scientific concepts or because God supernaturally revealed those things to him?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:8 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.
Job 28:24 for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. 25 When he established the force of the wind and measured out the waters, 26 when he made a decree for the rain and a path for the thunderstorm, 27 then he looked at wisdom and appraised it; he confirmed it and tested it.
Job 36:27 “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; 28 the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.
Job 38:12 Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job 38:31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt? 32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Peter was not speaking English; he was speaking Greek. Peter didn't write the word "elements"; he wrote the word στοιχεῖα. We want to know what Peter meant by the Greek word, not our English representation of it. Modern Translators have a modern bias and sometimes forget to filter out that bias.
The Greeks had their own theories about physics. In their view, the classical elements were fire, water, earth, and air. These were thought to be the fundamental building blocks of nature. The concept was first proposed by Empedocles, a Greek philosopher from the 5th century BCE, who believed that these elements combined in different ways to form everything in the universe. Later, Aristotle expanded on this idea by adding a fifth element called aether (or quintessence), which he associated with the heavens and celestial bodies. Given this interpretation, some postulate that Peter was referring to the celestial bodies and that they would be destroyed.
If we conclude that Peter is talking about the destruction of everything in heaven and on earth, then we cause him to say something contrary to everything else the Bible says about the Day of the Lord. And since Peter would not contradict scripture, our conclusion is incorrect.
In biblical prophecy, darkness is often symbolic rather than strictly physical. It can represent judgment, distress, spiritual blindness, or the withdrawal of divine favor rather than the literal absence of light from the sun or moon.
For example, in Isaiah 13:10, it says, "The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light; the rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light." While this could refer to a cosmic event, it is often interpreted metaphorically, signifying upheaval, destruction, or divine intervention affecting nations and rulers.
Similarly, in Matthew 24:29, Jesus says, "Immediately after the distress of those days, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’" Again, while this could imply physical darkness, it also carries symbolic meaning, signaling a significant transformation before the arrival of the Son of Man.
The Day of the Lord is often associated with divine rule on earth, particularly in prophetic literature. Zechariah 14:9 states, "On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth-the LORD alone, and His name alone." This suggests a future time when God's sovereignty will be fully recognized and established over all nations.
The concept of the Day of the Lord includes both judgment and restoration. It is described as a time when God intervenes in human history to judge the wicked, redeem His people, and establish His righteous rule. This is linked to the Messianic reign, where Christ rules over the earth in fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You did a tremendous job here of completely ignoring my point and not addressing it at all. Well done, if that was your goal.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well actually HIs return is shown earlier:
Revelation 19:11-21
King James Version
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 16:14-16
King James Version
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Matthew 25:31-41
King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus is always present with His Father and shall reign for 1000 years on earth. Then after teh 1000 years:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your argument assumed that Peter was speaking English. Since this is factually incorrect for obvious reasons, I chose to argue that Peter was speaking Greek to Greek speakers of his time. Understanding Peter in his original language, it is clear to see that he was not talking about the total destruction of the earth.
Actually, you are rather oddly stuck on this, what makes you think I believe that? I did not say that, you assumed it somehow.
All I pointed out is the Heavenly city descends from God out of Heaven, so they both come to the NEW Earth
For this earth, Jesus shows up in the air to collect the saints and administer the fiery judgment of God on this world, then the judgment, etc... then the New earth is created. And God dwells together with men on the New Earth.
A physical Jesus, well, He no longer has a flesh and blood body does He. He has a glorified body, it is a spiritual body that can assume a physical one of flesh and bone, it does not say flesh and blood.
Luke 24:39
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
After the resurrection Jesus had no blood left, ok, sounds weird, He offered up His Blood in Heaven, and we are to eat and drink Him, sort of like the sacrifices of the OC, the blood was offered on the altar.
The LIFE of the FLESH is in the BLOOD, and HE GAVE up HIS LIFE, so He gave up His Blood to be sprinkled on the people of God.
John 6:53
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:55
For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
John 6:56
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Besides all that, Flesh and Blood does not inherit the kingdom, a secret clue to what the glorified body is like, it is like Christ's now, and He can assume a flesh and bone body with no blood being mentioned.
He was only offered up ONCE as a blood sacrifice, He does not die continually.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
This is a good point. A question can be raised, then, what does it mean to be "new"? New in what sense? Does it refer to a brand new earth? Does it refer to an existing earth that has been restored?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, it does not. Stop trying to speak for me.
I argue the same. That has nothing to do with why we are disagreeing about this.
In the original language, the words he used that were translated as "dissolved" and "melt" can refer to the literal dissolving and literal melting of physical or material things. That's a fact. Those words can also mean other things (they had multiple definitions like almost all Greek words do), but you can't deny that they can refer to the literal dissolving and melting of things as well.
Part of your argument is that Peter could not have known anything about the literal dissolving and melting of physical and material things, but I showed you that means nothing as I'm sure Moses and Job did not have a full understanding of advanced science, either, and, yet, they still were able to speak about advanced scientific things because of revelation from the Holy Spirit.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Don't tell me what to say. Yes, it does. You argued that Peter was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit talking about the destruction of the elements as understood by modern scientists.
No, you did not argue from the Greek text.
Yes, it does. You argued that Peter was not unfamiliar with atoms and nuclear bonds because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It seems you are having difficulty keeping your facts straight. The original language of the text is Greek, while the translation is in English. Greek words can have a wide range of meanings, which means that the interpretation and understanding of the passage will influence how it is read in English. The idea of the world's destruction is just one possible interpretation, but it is not the only one. There are other valid interpretations as well. The translation you have is based on one person's judgment regarding which interpretation they believe Peter intended. However, since Peter is talking about the Day of the Lord, and we know that Jesus returns to earth to rule over all the nations during that time, then the translation you have in your hand reflects an exegesis that Peter didn't intend.
As I mentioned earlier, I acknowledge that the Greek in the passage is challenging to understand and that there are multiple plausible interpretations of the passage.
I disagree with your premise that Moses and Job were discussing advanced scientific concepts. For instance, Moses is not talking about how the world came to be except to say that God spoke it into existence. That is not a scientific statement, it's a theological statement. Neither is Job making scientific statements. He is speaking poetically about the natural world.
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