The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.

[Scott Downey]

If the vessels of dishonor can become saved then is it possible for a tare (children of the wicked one) to become saved also?

No, I do not think it so. Not from God's eternal perspective. God knows His own even before their births.
The tare parable has the good seed sown by the Son of Man, they are saved as the Son of Man sows them, they have their origin in the power of God.
The good seed can though do works of the flesh and does not even know Christ, recall they have to grow, but God arrests them and takes them for Himself at some point in their life as they really do belong to Him. They are just sheep going astray. He brings them back to Himself

Like Paul, who breathing out threats against the church, arresting and delivering them to death; But God makes all that immediately stop when Christ appears to Him.

Acts 22:9
“And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

No one around Saul heard the voice of Christ except for him. Paul acknowledges his own hidden calling from God was from the womb, even from before all things.

Galatians 1

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.


2 Timothy 1

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (before our mother's womb, from the beginning God called us for Himself), 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles.

2 Peter
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for [e]us, leaving [f]us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose [g]stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and [h]Overseer of your souls.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

• Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
• Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
• Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
• Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
• Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
• Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
• Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
• Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
• Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
• Does imprisonment mean immobility?
• Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
• Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
• Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
• Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
• Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Nothing but silence in response to your questions, as usual. The answer to all of those questions, of course, is no. But, Premils would have to answer yes to all of them to be consistent with their overall understanding of Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions.

Right. That has to be true because Satan and his beast work together. They need each other.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Anything that happens to the dragon (Satan) affects the beast and vice versa. So, if the beast is in the bottomless pit, which we all know it was at the time John wrote the book, according to Revelation 17:8, then it only follows that the dragon is in the bottomless pit as well.

We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

Agree. And, in regards to 2nd Thessalonians 2, notice what is restrained and then later is unrestrained/loosed....

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Paul indicates that what is restrained before later being unrestrained/loosed is iniquity. Wickedness. The mystery of iniquity was already at work in Paul's day, yet it was restrained. Restrained by the powerful preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit which brought light into the dark world. What causes this unrestrained iniquity/wickedness that Paul wrote about? It's caused by "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish". This shows that "the working of Satan" had previously been restrained and bound and then later is loosed.

When looking at the description of the binding of the strong man in passages like Matthew 12:28-29 and the others in Mark and Luke, Premils do not try to claim that the strong man is completely incapacitated when he is bound. They think he is only bound from possessing people because they think that passage only relates to be bound from doing that (we know better). But, that shows that the strong man, Satan, can be bound without it meaning that he is completely tied up and incapacitated. So, why can they see Matthew 12:28-29 that way, but not Revelation 20?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the vessels of dishonor can become saved then is it possible for a tare (children of the wicked one) to become saved also?

Yes, of course. The vessels of dishonor fit the same description as the tares because they are in the snare of the devil as the passage from 2nd Timothy 2:20-26 shows. They can't be in the snare of the devil without also being children of the wicked one (the devil).

 

[WPM]

Nothing but silence in response to your questions, as usual. The answer to all of those questions, of course, is no. But, Premils would have to answer yes to all of them to be consistent with their overall understanding of Revelation 20.

Silence speaks loud. They know they have no arguments. The battle has been long won on these forums.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Mathew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

*********************************************
When Christ returns, the separating out of one from the other, both who are in this world occurs.
Christ compares the end of the world to come and the glories that are to follow as harvesting-gathering, such as of grain, fish. Where the good ones, declared just by God by their faith are separated from the bad ones, the unjust, who have no faith in God.
**********************************************

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

************************************************************

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

************************************************

At the end of this world, what comes next is the appearing of His kingdom on the new earth
We get a new earth and a new heaven in which dwells no evil thing.

The cause of the fall in Eden was evil in both heaven and earth in the form of celestial heavenly beings, Satan and his angels, who rebelled against God and Christ.

One must be careful in saying the end of the world. It is not the world after the 1,000 years but it is the end of the world until the tribulation ends and the Millennial kingdom on earth begins.

 

[WPM]

One must be careful in saying the end of the world. It is not the world after the 1,000 years but it is the end of the world until the tribulation ends and the Millennial kingdom on earth begins.

How many ends of the world do you want? How can there be a prolonged period of time after the last or final day? How can there be a prolonged period of time after time (or chronos) shall be no longer? How can there be an age in-between this age and the age to come when Scripture only recognizes a 2-age framework?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One must be careful in saying the end of the world. It is not the world after the 1,000 years but it is the end of the world until the tribulation ends and the Millennial kingdom on earth begins.

To Jesus there was only this temporal world/age (Greek: aion) and the eternal world/age to come.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So, Jesus indicated that during this age until the time of the resurrection of the dead, people get married and they die. Those who are worthy of obtaining the the age to come will not get married or die. So, the age to come is eternal in contrast to this temporal age.

Here are other scriptures which show that the age to come is eternal.

Mark 10:29 Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

Here, again, Jesus contrasts temporary things with eternal things when contrasting this age (aion) with the age to come. In this case, He contrasts temporal rewards in this present temporal age with eternal life in the eternal age to come.

Luke wrote about what Jesus said there as well.

Luk 18:29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How many ends of the world do you want? How can there be a prolonged period of time after the last or final day? How can there be a prolonged period of time after time (or chronos) shall be no longer? How can there be an age in-between this age and the age to come when Scripture only recognizes a 2-age framework?

To Premils there are multiple ends of the world, multiple last days, multiple resurrection days, multiple judgment days and, to some, multiple new heavens and new earths. How can anyone make sense of that? They turn the glorious, climactic day of the Lord's return into anticlimactic event with more sin and death to come following it.

 

[Scott Downey]

One must be careful in saying the end of the world. It is not the world after the 1,000 years but it is the end of the world until the tribulation ends and the Millennial kingdom on earth begins.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


KJV has it as the end of the world, so this world ends, the wicked are all removed, and the righteous shine in the kingdom of their Father, which would be the new earth and new heaven to come. NKJV says 'age'

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

No matter how terrible the times will be, and at the end will be very hard times, His promise is He will always be with us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


KJV has it as the end of the world, so this world ends, the wicked are all removed, and the righteous shine in the kingdom of their Father, which would be the new earth and new heaven to come. NKJV says 'age'

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Apostles in the Olivet discourse asked 3 questions.

1. When will the temple be destroyed.
2. What is the end of the age (not endof the world, the greek shows this)
3. What is the sign of your coming

The end of the world passages you speak of are actually the end of the age when Jesus physically returns, defeats and hurls inot the lake of fire the antichrist and false prophet, and abysses Satan for 1000 years and establishes His kingdom.

The wheat and tares here are the survivors left on planet earth when Jesus establishes His earthly throne.

At the end of time, The saved are already saved and resurrected and glorified. The dead will be physically raised and judged and hurled into the lake of fire. There is no speerating the wheat and tares at the Great White Throne.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Apostles in the Olivet discourse asked 3 questions.

1. When will the temple be destroyed.
2. What is the end of the age (not endof the world, the greek shows this)
3. What is the sign of your coming

The end of the world passages you speak of are actually the end of the age when Jesus physically returns, defeats and hurls inot the lake of fire the antichrist and false prophet, and abysses Satan for 1000 years and establishes His kingdom.

The wheat and tares here are the survivors left on planet earth when Jesus establishes His earthly throne.

At the end of time, The saved are already saved and resurrected and glorified. The dead will be physically raised and judged and hurled into the lake of fire. There is no speerating the wheat and tares at the Great White Throne.

With His second coming occurring at the end of the age I think it makes more sense that they actually asked Him two questions with the second question being about the sign of His coming and the end of the age that His coming will bring. They didn't ask about the sign of His coming and the sign of the end of the age. I'm just throwing this out there for consideration. It doesn't really matter either way if you believe that His second coming will occur at the end of the age.

As for the wheat and tares being the survivors left on planet earth when Jesus comes at the end of the age, do you believe the wheat inherit the kingdom of God at that point? If so, do you think they will have mortal bodies? And do you have the tares being cast into the fire at that point as Jesus said they will be?

 

[Scott Downey]

The Apostles in the Olivet discourse asked 3 questions.

1. When will the temple be destroyed.
2. What is the end of the age (not endof the world, the greek shows this)
3. What is the sign of your coming

The end of the world passages you speak of are actually the end of the age when Jesus physically returns, defeats and hurls inot the lake of fire the antichrist and false prophet, and abysses Satan for 1000 years and establishes His kingdom.

The wheat and tares here are the survivors left on planet earth when Jesus establishes His earthly throne.

At the end of time, The saved are already saved and resurrected and glorified. The dead will be physically raised and judged and hurled into the lake of fire. There is no speerating the wheat and tares at the Great White Throne.

God swore an oath that the Son is a priest forever.
He is our great high priest in heaven.
A major problem is if Christ is on the earth, he cannot be our high priest.

Hebrews 8​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

The New Priestly Service​

1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the [a]sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer.

4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
**********************************************

Being the mediator of the New Covenant, requires Christ to be in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God swore an oath that the Son is a priest forever.
He is our great high priest in heaven.
A major problem is if Christ is on the earth, he cannot be our high priest.

So you reject the physical return of Jesus to earth then.

 

[Scott Downey]

So you reject the physical return of Jesus to earth then.

It is like this, no 1000 year separation away from the Father's side will take place between Christ and God.
The scriptures there point that out.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

With His second coming occurring at the end of the age I think it makes more sense that they actually asked Him two questions with the second question being about the sign of His coming and the end of the age that His coming will bring. They didn't ask about the sign of His coming and the sign of the end of the age. I'm just throwing this out there for consideration. It doesn't really matter either way if you believe that His second coming will occur at the end of the age.

As for the wheat and tares being the survivors left on planet earth when Jesus comes at the end of the age, do you believe the wheat inherit the kingdom of God at that point? If so, do you think they will have mortal bodies? And do you have the tares being cast into the fire at that point as Jesus said they will be?

Well the construct shows they asked three questions not two. I will go with what is written and not with what some try to guess the "spiritual meaning".

Yes when Jesus physically returns, they will be saved and unsaved. That is the judgment of Matt. 25: 31-46. They will not have mortal bodies- they are saved.

According to Isaiah, these survivors will have children and the children will have till their 100th birthday to accept Christ or Jesus will kill them. He rules with a rod of iron.

As for the tares, they will be cast into the place of torments until the great white throne judgment, when they will be cast into the lake of fire, after their bodies are resurrected and they are joined with their bodies once more..

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is like this, no 1000 year separation away from the Father's side will take place between Christ and God.
The scriptures there point that out.

So you do reject the physical return of Jesus as He said He will do. Okay. You are wrong for Jesus said He would return and there are many passages showing His return.

If God is omnipresent, How can Jesus be seperated from the Father at any point?

Matt. 25, Acts 1, Rev. 19 all show Jesus returning to earth to fight and battle and judge and reign. Does He stay on earth for the whole 1000 years? Bible doesn't say so it would be foolish to speculate.

 

[Scott Downey]

But we do read of this taking place, the Holy heavenly city, the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God
Therefore Christ is dwelling with men on the NEW earth, but not this old evil earth. And God the Father too is there.
For Heaven and Earth there is here no separation. It unites together.


Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Scott Downey]

So you do reject the physical return of Jesus as He said He will do. Okay. You are wrong for Jesus said He would return and there are many passages showing His return.

If God is omnipresent, How can Jesus be seperated from the Father at any point?

Matt. 25, Acts 1, Rev. 19 all show Jesus returning to earth to fight and battle and judge and reign. Does He stay on earth for the whole 1000 years? Bible doesn't say so it would be foolish to speculate.

Post 159, comeon now, have some logic here, the scripture explains what will happen when Christ returns, we get new heaven and new earth.
And the Godhead dwells with His people, there is no separation like you believe in.