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But it is ~ or would be, anyway ~ God's will that because one is guilty of sin that he or she ~ if not born again of the Spirit, thus redeemed by Christ and therefore in Christ and clothed in His righteousness and unrepentant of that sin ~ be subject to the Father's perfect justice and the just administration of the punishment for that sin. Right?
Well, false implications, right, Ronald?
Right, and he's speaking to Christians, so he's talking about Christians, not literally every person living, past, present, or future.
Agreed, our belief is of ourselves, but in the new birth of the Spirit, He does give us a new spirit ~ He "removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives us a heart of flesh. thereby putting His Spirit within us" ~ as Ezekiel, who is actually quoting God Himself puts it (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36-26-27) puts it, actually quoting God. And because of this new heart/spirit, we can then see, and because of this we believe. As John ~ quoting Jesus ~ says in John 3, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
He doesn't "require it" in the sense that any person has to manufacture it in Himself; that is impossible as saving faith is God's assurance, and conviction by the Spirit ~ Hebrews 11:1 again ~ so one cannot have this saving faith unless it is given to him/her by God. One cannot assure himself or herself of anything, else it is an empty assurance; it must come from outside us, be given to us.
Right, a faith in something... anything... other than in God, other than a saving faith. But even that faith is given by someone or something other than or outside himself or herself. Whatever the faith is in, one does not work assurance in himself or herself, but acquires it from someone or something.
<chuckles> Thankfully, God's assurance is... a bit... <smile> ...greater than yours, and actually true..
Certainly, there were many there who believed what He was saying, but we can make no determination as to the number; all we can say is that he was speaking to a large body of people. This is near the end of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 7, and He says, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" In other words, many will think they served Him, but they will not have done so at all. And this is given as a warning to all, whether they believed or not, regardless of their belief or status.
Well, Jesus does say to His disciples, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Which is to say simply, yes, if we love Him we will do what He says, but also that we will do what He says because we love Him. And as John says, "we love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). And, back to Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27, God "gives us a new heart, and a new spirit He puts within us... removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives us a heart of flesh... puts His Spirit within us, and causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules..."
There is some truth in this statement... some. <smile> There is something more to Jesus knowing His followers, His sheep, than just knowing who they are. This knowing is synonymous with loving, and you seem to understand that. And... to make what could be a longer story short, as John says, we love because God first loved us (1 John 4:19). And God loved us ~ His elect, so this love is also a choosing ~ even before the foundation of the world, as Paul says in Ephesians 1. So, to what you say here, God knows us from before the beginning, from all eternity. Our becoming joined to God Spiritually, born again, and thus in Christ is absolutely sure and certain from before the foundation of the world, but is not actually the case until we are born again, which may happen at any time in our lives, at any age ~ but at the appointed (by God) time, to be understood in the sense of Acts 13:48, where we read, "...when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
I've never accused you of such (even though you falsely accuse others of such and are implicitly doing so here), but you either don't understand it fully or misunderstand it in places.
No, but declared righteous, and thus justified, imputed ~ "clothed in" ~ the righteousness of Christ. From that point, we are being made righteous, so sanctified, conformed to the image of Christ, which is an ongoing process, but with absolute surety will be made complete" at the day of Christ.
In this life, the Christian is not made righteous in the sense of the work being completed. It is in the sense of having being declared righteous and thus being conformed to the image of Christ. When Jesus cried, "It is finished," He was most certainly saying He had completed the work needed to accomplish redemption. So for any one of us Christians, we have been redeemed, but we are also being redeemed. So for any one of us Christians, our redemption is not yet complete, but most certainly will be... at the day of Christ.
Right; I never said that.
Right; I never said that.
See above. In one sense, yes, but in another, no.
Absolutely.
It ensures it, yes.
Hmmm, well I agree with this...
Agree with this...
And I agree with this. However, Paul goes on to say, do the above in full confidence, "for..." ~ because ~ "...it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." We do the willing and working, but it is because God is working within us, by the power of His Spirit, Whom He has given us, to do so. As long as you don't leave that out, then okay. <smile>
Yes he is. We disagree.
Some kind of faith, yes, but not faith from God, which is given only to Christians at the point they are born again of the Spirit, each in his own measure, according to God's will. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12. Now, that measure can increase, again as God wills and the Spirit executes, and this is why we pray that God would increase our faith, as the apostles asked of the Lord in Luke 17:5.
The unbeliever cannot ~ will not, will never ~ do this. He or she will always have this "dead faith" James speaks of, and yes, in some thing or things other than the Lord, unless and until he or she is born again of the Spirit.
Not "no capacity" in the sense that it is not possible to believe, but rather no capacity in the sense that he or she is absolutely inclined against God. He or she is in that case of the devil; his or her father is the devil, and thus his or her will is to do the will of his or her father the devil. This is what John Calvin called "total depravity." One may not like the term, but the important thing is the concept. Whatever the term used, it is absolute inclination against God, absolute rebellion against Him, absolute enmity with Him, which is a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve. That's the natural condition of man, of his/her heart, which Adam and Eve acquired on that fateful day and we inherit from our birth, even our conception.
The issue is not the will, which is always free, but the condition of the heart, the spirit in the person. There is a certain sense in which our will is never free, though; every person, at any given time, is either a slave to unrighteousness, which is true of every person from birth, or a slave to righteousness, which is true of all those who have been born again of the Spirit.
Right, sure...
No, but it is the inevitable result of God's assurance. We believe because we have been assured by God, and the evidence of this is the new spirit we have in us, which now is inclined to do His will, our Father's will, and not that of our former father. We believe because we have been given to Jesus by the Father. Read on...
This is His will in the sense that His desire is that all would believe, yes. But... <smile> ...God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He has compassion; God has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. So, as Paul says of being one of God's elect, it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. This is Romans 9:14-18. Even Jesus says of those who do not believe in Him, "you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand..." You cannot avoid the clear cause and effect, there... they do not believe because they are not His, given to Him by the Father, not the other way around.
Agree. As alluded to in Matthew 7:21-23 and graphically portrayed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, specifically Matthew 25:41-46.
No, those who have died will be resurrected also... to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). Right now, those who have died are in what we call the intermediate state; the second death will begin for them (death is a state of being) as a result of this final Judgment.
Right; I didn't say or insinuate such.
<eye roll>
Certainly. All are appointed to die once. But for those who are born again of the Spirit, none will experience the second death.
Well, right, but the clarification is that they would never put their "faith in Christ to God" if God had not had mercy/compassion on them and given them His assurance, which is true assurance.
I don't do that at all. Except maybe to say that they might be very stubborn... <smile>
Well, in the words of an old-ish country song, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..." <smile>
Sure, but that doesn't mean you're right... <smile>
Both, actually. Because they believe God, it is credited to them as righteousness, but we are being conformed to the image of Christ, so we are also being made righteous, being made holy, as it were. You can deny this all you want, but true it is.
I agree, but eternity is not here... yet. So again, we are credited with this righteousness, but are not yet fully righteous.
I'm not "trying" to do anything; it is what it is. So... declared righteous, by God; and in this sense made righteous. This is our justification, which is ~ was ~ a once-and-for-all thing. And as Paul says, "those whom (God) foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom (God) predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). Our justification occurred when we were born again of the Spirit (actually, we were born again because we were justified). Our glorification will be at the day of Christ. At any time in between is our progressive sanctification.
Right, which is our being conformed to Christ's image, what we call sanctification, which is our walking in the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); this is the good work in us that God began and will bring to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). And again, because of this, we can with confidence make our calling and election sure ~ so evident to all, including ourselves ~ because we know that God is at work in us so that we will and work according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). You can disagree with any or all of this if you want, for sure; that's your own prerogative, but it is what it is.
Right. Agree. So we have been saved ~ have eternal life now ~ and are being saved ~ will be resurrected to eternal life and thus life in eternity ~ at the same time.
The context of "the measure of faith" is only in relation to believers, but it has nothing to do with the saving faith we put in Christ that results in salvation, but rather relates to the measure of faith and ability each person needs to use whichever spiritual gifts they are given, which aren't the same for all believers. Look at the context...
I'm not "rationalizing" anything, Ronald. But yes, God's eternal decree, for sure. It is what it is. My intent is to make things clearer using everyday human terms, if you will, but still, it is what it is.
Nope. 'Measure,' is not synonymous with mere 'ability' to do anything, Behold. 'Measure' in 1 Corinthians 12:9, should be understood in the sense of 'amount,' or 'strength.' And this is the case with all the gifts of the Spirit there.
Salvific faith is God-given assurance. I have said this many, many times now.
Not salvific faith. God certainly doesn't assure every human being of salvation. Else everyone would be saved, but we know this not to be true.
Yes, I said that previously.
Not "become," but is. If it's not God-given faith, the outward evidence of it being good works, then whatever "faith" they have is dead.
No, Hyper-Calvinism is a terrible ~ hyper ~ mischaracterization of one or more of the concepts represented in the acronym "TULIP" as presented by John Calvin.
No, this is actually what hyper-Calvinists do with the first of John Calvin's five points.
All Christians. Maybe you're talking about Romans 12, but even there, Paul says, "everyone among you," and he's talking ~ writing, actually ~ to Christians, "(t)o all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints" (Romans 1:7)... so not "everyone" in general.
Right, because He gives it... He gives His assurance ~ which is what faith is, according to the Bible itself, God's Word ~ to Christians. So we have this assurance, because God gave it to us.
So your conclusions are wrong, because your premises are wrong.
Not really; hyper-Calvinism is a term that criticizes some forms of Calvinism for overemphasizing God's sovereignty and minimizing human responsibility.
Like I have said, the funny thing is that we agree on quite a bit.
Agreed; as I said.
This is wrong. Christians will be on Jesus's right, and "rejectors" will be on Jesus's left in the final Judgment, as we see in Matthew 25:31-46 and in Revelation 20:11-15. All will be judged according to what they have done. And again, as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, the "hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
Of course. I have said this many times.
No, but correct, according to true NT doctrine.
You do. Oh, you think they are facts, and to some extent they are.
I do, too. One of us is mistaken about at least some of Paul's theology. <smile>
...to the image of His Son (so, Christ). Well now that's funny, because that's exactly what I said. So how can I be misquoting and quoting correctly at the same time? The answer is, that's not possible. LOL!
Hmmm, well no, because that would make it to be a post-destining. No, we are PRE-destined, so something has to happen before this process of being conformed to Christ begins, and that something is our being born again of the Spirit.
Uh-oh, the whole "new body" thing... Ohhhh, boy,,, <smile>
Disagree. When Paul writes that, he is still alive, of course, so he is not fully conformed to the image of Christ. And still is not, actually; that will happen along with all the rest of us Christians after the final Judgment, which is shortly after Christ's return.
Well, I agree, if ~ if ~ you mean in the New Heaven and New Earth. But I don't think you do... <smile>
Right, but eternity ~ the age to come ~ is not here yet, so in that sense it is not yet. So again, both now and not yet.
Absolutely. But are you actually sitting in heaven with Christ? Or are you sitting at your computer typing... "stuff"...? <smile> Well, yes; yes you are. <smile>
Right, but the Kingdom is not yet here in its fullness. But most certainly will be. So, yes, now and not yet.
As was pointed out to you already, all people will stand before Jesus to be judged, with believers being placed on His right hand side and unbelievers on His left hand side, as shown in Matthew 25:31-46. All judgment has been given to the Son.
Well, right. But what do you "use it" for, Behold? <smile> That really makes no sense. Because you have it, it certainly affects how you say and do things from then on, if that's what you mean.
He doesn't. As I have said.
Okay, well if He gives it, then He's going to see it at work in us, affecting how we walk, which will be according to His Spirit and not according to the world. Goodness gracious. <smile> As Paul says, "God... even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ ... by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works... we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
No, it's surely not, but you're doing a really, really good job of misunderstanding it.
Right, this is the general call of the Gospel and to believe. But He only assures some of things hoped for, only convicts some of things unseen... only gives saving faith to some.
I'd say before, but okay. In the Garden of Eden, God says to Satan, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." This is the first promise of a Savior (Jesus) and salvation.
Not saving faith.
Our trust in God is because of our God-given, saving faith... His assurance to us and His conviction worked in us by His Spirit.
Yes, but why is that, Behold? Keep in mind there are many out there who know their mother does not love them. Is it not because of what my Mother has done for me that I love her? Well, you can't know, except that I am telling you. But yes.
No one is claiming that. And in what I am saying, God "forcing anyone to have that faith" is not at all the implication.
Ah, no, the human condition is that we have no saving faith. and are in fact assured of the opposite, having exchanged the truth for a lie, as Paul puts it in Romans 1. And in Ephesians 2:1-3, he says of Christians, we all "were dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
All of us Christians, yes, but not naturally.
Nope. The amount or strength of faith is the measure of faith. And no amount or strength of this saving faith is found at all in unbelievers.
Agree. But one cannot exercise something he or she has not acquired and thus does not have.
No, it's emphasizing God's sovereignty over human responsibility, as I said. But in the sense that you are saying what you are saying here, yes, the effect of hyper Calvinism is to take the things John Calvin said/wrote/taught and make them into something they are not, and therefore not really Calvinism at all.
So you think. Me too. Fair enough.
Absolutely.
Well no, only Christ will sit in judgment. As for us, in being judged according to what we have done, we will have an Advocate, even Christ Himself, and will be judged... well... because of our righteousness in Christ.
We will, after the resurrection, be reunited with our physical body. And yes, the final Judgment will take place here on this planet. After the final Judgment, after the wicked are sent away, heaven will come down to us, and earth and heaven will be one, the New Heaven and New Earth.
I know. <smile>
So do I. One of us ~ at least to some degree, because we agree on at least some things ~ is mistaken.
O.... kaaaaay, yeah...
But the predestining ~ which is by God, of course ~ is not done after one "becomes in Christ," else it is a post-destining. This predestining is from before the foundation of the world, Behold: "(God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him... in love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..." (Ephesians 1:4-5).
This is true of neither the predestining or the "becoming in Christ."
No "Rapture."
Paul: "...if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His." Better brush up on your Pauline Theology... <smile>
Right, and God will reconstitute it, and reunite our spirit to/with it. He showed that to Ezekiel (chapter 37)...
LOL! Sigh...
And he's still not. But he will be. As will all Christians.
Absolutely. But we are not yet in our final state. All of God's creation will be made new.
Body and spirit were never meant to be apart. God did not create man that way. We can readily see this in Adam and Eve before the Fall, whereby they died, that very day, just as God said they would in Genesis 2:17 ~ although it was not a physical death, but a spiritual one ~ and became subject to physical death. God says not "Behold, I am making all new things..." <smile> ... but rather, "Behold, I am making all things new." What He's doing, Behold, is completely reversing the effects of the Fall and restoring paradise to its original state. In this way, all things ~ all of creation ~ will be made new.
So, you're just going to ignore John 5:22, which says the Father gives all judgment to the Son?
Because it is your understanding that I don't accept everything written in God's word? I would assume then that you have some examples of what I don't accept in support of this theory. Care to share them?
