Behold
Well-Known Member
John does not have sin.
His sin is found on Christ who died for it.
See, you dont understand The Cross of Christ., yet., much less what it means to be born again. @Spiritual Israelite
Can a tare become saved?
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John does not have sin.
His sin is found on Christ who died for it.
See, you dont understand The Cross of Christ., yet., much less what it means to be born again. @Spiritual Israelite
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is not up to you to decide. But, you think you are? The person who tries to change "we", "ourselves" and "us" into "they", "themselves" and "them"? You are delusional if you think anyone would even dream of considering you, a person who is full of himself and imagines himself to be sinless, to be a pastor, apostle, evangelist or teacher.
LOL. No true teacher twists the word of God the way you do. Do you not think that you need Jesus anymore?
LOL. Total nonsense. You don't think you need to continue trusting in Jesus after you first become born again/saved? You are delusional. You are a false teacher.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have no understanding of grace! Grace doesn't stop once you are born again! We need God's grace and the blood of Christ to be saved in the first place and we continue to need it afterwards to help us keep our faith until the end. You have no idea of what you're talking about.
Tell me, what are warnings like the following about if we are sinless after being born again and don't have to be concerned anymore about being deceived?
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
I believe Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. I suppose you will try to say that when he says "we" and "our" here, he's not including himself? LOL! I can't take you seriously.
Behold
Well-Known Member
It is for me to discern, you.
So, God does not put people into the Ministry, who can't even understand The Cross of Christ.
Beleive it........and fella, you dont understand the Blood Atonement, or the New Covenant, or what it means to receive ""the gift of righteousness".
Now maybe some on this forum who are spiritual kiddies can't figure you out, but i did, in about your first post, today that you sent to me.
Im talking miles over your head, and all im doing is teaching "baby christian" ...... understanding of what it means to become born again.
In the Ministry, For longer then you've been alive, more then likely.
See, i only teache "Pauline theology"......Paul's doctrine.
You have none of this as your understanding....yet.
i didn't change it......I just explained that some verses in the NT, are not directed to the born again, as doctrine.
You dont know this, because you are not a real student of the NT yet
Behold
Well-Known Member
God's Grace is The Cross of Christ.
Its "the Gift of Salvation" that is the "blood Atonement".
Its the "imputed righteousness of Christ".
Its the FREE = "Gift of Salvation" and the "Gift of Eternal life".
Listen little one.
The same blood of Jesus that washed away the sin of a beleiver 2000 yrs ago, will be doing it for Christians in 2025, until forever.
Think on that before you waste more of your time confessing your sin so that you can try to keep yourself saved.
The reason that a Chrisitan is "sinless" is because "God hath made Jeuus TO BE SIN for us"..........and also because of the "imputed righteousness of Christ".
This never ends.
Being saved has happened......its not something you hold unto.......its something that is called "born again".
You can't stop being born again.
Also......"GOD who began SALVATION = in all the BORN AGAIN.......will HIMSELF be FAITHFUL to Complete it".""""""
And also..
if we believe not, yet God abideth faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
ASV
if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself.
AMP
If we are faithless, God remains faithful [true to His word and His righteous character], for He cannot deny Himself.
AMPC
If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
BRG
If we believe not, yet God abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
CSB
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
CEB
If we are disloyal, he stays faithful” because he can’t be anything else than what he is.
CJB
If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
CEV
If we are not faithful, he will still be faithful. Christ cannot deny who he is.”
DARBY
if we are unfaithful, *he* abides faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
DLNT
if we are faithless, that One remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
DRA
If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he can not deny himself.
ERV
If we are not faithful, he will still be faithful, because he cannot be false to himself.
Im not concerned about what you think, as ive read your theology and its not mature nor does it indicate that you are an actual NT student.
Listen,
Paul probabiy wrote the book of Hebrews...
And in Heb 6 & 10 you find Him dealing with unsaved JEWS (Hebrews) .. who are "willfully sinning".....
That means they are knowingly rejecting their Messiah...and Paul tells them....if you do that, there is "no more sacrifice for your sin".........as Jesus is the only sacrifice available, and they are rejecting Him.
If you read Acts 28:28, you find the same situation.......and its Paul and the unbelieving Jews, as you find it again in Hebrews 6 & 10
Now, heretics, teach that these verses are "given to Christians" and of course that's not true, but Heretics are not dealiing in truth.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Look here, fella. The Holy Spirit is my teacher, not you. You are a false teacher who tries to teach that someone cannot be considered to be born again and saved unless they are not sinning, which blatantly contradicts the fact that immature Christians struggle with sin and need to work on being more mature while pursuing holiness and righteousness. But, that is something we continue to pursue throughout our Christian lives. You think you have already arrived at perfection and sinlessness when the reality is that only Jesus was sinless! You think you don't need Jesus anymore! You are deceived and a false teacher!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What does "Pauline theology" mean exactly? You only accept Paul's teaching and not the teaching of the rest of scripture or what? Is Pauline theology any different than Jesus theology or Peter theology or John theology? Paul did not teach anything that is different than what Jesus taught or what Peter taught or what John taught or what is taught in the rest of scripture. He may have wrote about a few things that no one else wrote about, like the mystery of us all being bodily changed at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52), but it's ridiculous to refer to "Pauline theology" when we should use all of scripture, including Paul's letters but not exclusively Paul's letters, to form our doctrine and theology.
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Romans 6
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, [a]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Anyone who is in Christ 'does not sin', 1 John 3: 5-9 teaches us .
But what part of us is that> It is the part of us as a New Creation in Christ.
This is nothing to do with our body of flesh and blood, our carnal side can sin, our body dies-is dead because of sin, but the sins are all forgiven us, as in not recalled unto judgment of eternal death as we if we are New Creation in Christ, spiritually alive to God, in the Spirit and we are 'not in the flesh. regarded that way by God any longer.
It is also why we are PERFECTED in the New Covenant, we have been perfected FOREVER.
Some supporting doctrines on that.
Hebrews 10
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is [e]remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
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1 John 3, and how bout that v5-9 verses, Apostle John is defining sin differently than how we tend to think of sin!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of [a]God! Therefore the world does not know [b]us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
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Especially so in verse 9!
v9, and the Holy Spirit creation of you as a NEW Creation in Christ, that part of you is without sin.
That is the part of you that God saves. All the other stuff, well it can and may burn at the judgment seat, but you, you spirit will be saved.
1 Cor 3
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone [b]defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
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2 Corinthians 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not [d]imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
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I have no idea if anyone will read these scriptures, agree or disagree, say they agree but don't like the way I said them, but they are there and you have to come to grips with the TRUTH yourself, hopefully the Spirit of God is working within you.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
This is a truth that if you have been made spiritually alive, then you LIVE according to the Spirit, you do not live according to the FLESH, you have been given eternal life and will never perish. You have been PERFECTED spiritually, you have been conveyed out of the kingdom of Satan and death, into the kingdom of Life and Love of His dear Son.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
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10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, [a]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Anyone who is in Christ 'does not sin', 1 John 3: 5-9 teaches us .
But what part of us is that> It is the part of us as a New Creation in Christ.
This is nothing to do with our body of flesh and blood, our carnal side can sin, our body dies-is dead because of sin, but the sins are all forgiven us, as in not recalled unto judgment of eternal death as we if we are New Creation in Christ, spiritually alive to God, in the Spirit and we are 'not in the flesh. regarded that way by God any longer.
It is also why we are PERFECTED in the New Covenant, we have been perfected FOREVER.
Some supporting doctrines on that.
Hebrews 10
Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is [e]remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
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1 John 3, and how bout that v5-9 verses, Apostle John is defining sin differently than how we tend to think of sin!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of [a]God! Therefore the world does not know [b]us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
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Especially so in verse 9!
v9, and the Holy Spirit creation of you as a NEW Creation in Christ, that part of you is without sin.
That is the part of you that God saves. All the other stuff, well it can and may burn at the judgment seat, but you, you spirit will be saved.
1 Cor 3
Watering, Working, Warning
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone [b]defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
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2 Corinthians 5
The Judgment Seat of Christ
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.Be Reconciled to God
12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not [d]imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
**************************
I have no idea if anyone will read these scriptures, agree or disagree, say they agree but don't like the way I said them, but they are there and you have to come to grips with the TRUTH yourself, hopefully the Spirit of God is working within you.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
This is a truth that if you have been made spiritually alive, then you LIVE according to the Spirit, you do not live according to the FLESH, you have been given eternal life and will never perish. You have been PERFECTED spiritually, you have been conveyed out of the kingdom of Satan and death, into the kingdom of Life and Love of His dear Son.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
*****************************
Part 2,
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
*********************
LONG POSTS!
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.*********************
LONG POSTS!
Agreed. But that does not mean they are no longer Christians, even though they may think for a time they are not. And if they are actually not, then they never were, even though they may have thought they were for... forty years, which is exactly what John is saying in 1 John 2:19... "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
It's not a loss of faith, Behold, because God is the Giver of faith... His assurance. One cannot lose what God has given, and He will not take it away. Now, one may think for a time that his or her faith is weaker than it once was, but this is because, even for Christians, as Jeremiah says, "(t)he heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (17:9) If one thinks he has lost faith, then if he or she is worried about it, I would call that a good sign, and actually proof positive that he or she has it.
LOL! No... <smile>
Well, good. I didn't say you said it, but your words seem to have implied it, and I just stated such. Thank you for affirming.
Right, but not God-given faith. Only Christians born again of the Spirit of God have this God-given, salvific faith. All others place their faith in... all sorts of things having ultimately to do with creation, which they worship instead of the Creator, because they have exchanged the truth for a lie, as Paul says in Romans 1.
Humanly speaking that's absolutely true. But at any given time in our lives, we believe according to our heart, and who (or Who) we are of, who (or, again, Who) our father (or Father) is. So, to what you say here, why do we choose what we believe, Behold? Oh, because we have free will, right? Well, okay, yes, but... <smile> ... read on, here... <smile>
See, I don't necessarily disagree with this. Except that if we have God-given faith, He's always going to accept it, precisely because He has given it. The way you state it seems to insinuate that God's "accepting us" as His depends first on us...
NOTE: ...which, if we were to say that, then that would be directly opposed to what Paul specifically says in Romans 9:16, that "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy"...
...on us manufacturing our faith and giving it to Him as some sort of gift, and thus meriting our salvation, which would be to make faith a work of man, and in that case making grace out to be something very different from grace, which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11:6... "at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." And at the end of that chapter, Paul says, quoting Isaiah, "who has given a gift to Him that he might be repaid?"
So, yes, all this would be very contrary to what all the apostles, especially John, Paul, and Peter say about it... and even Jesus, Who, in John 15:16, says to His disciples ~ and again, to us by extension ~ "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide," which is exactly what Paul is saying, even referring to, in Ephesians 2 when he writes, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." So again, we may be in perfect agreement/alignment on this, but the way you state it is a bit of an issue.
Not at all; we are to fulfill the law of Christ, as Paul says in Galatians 6:2. But we still fail at least occasionally... <smile> ... because the "old man" o is still in us, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 4:22-24 ~ "put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Paul acknowledges this of himself in several of his letters, to the Roman Christians in Romans 7:22-24 ~ "I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am!" ~ and to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:15 ~ "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." ~ and as the writer of Hebrews in Hebrews 12:1-2 ~ "...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the Founder and Perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."
John was writing to Christians in all three of his epistles; specifically in 1 John 3:9, John says Christians don't "make a practice" of sinning, which is to say they don't make a habit of it, or dwell in it. But they still fall into it at least from time to time. And so was James, who calls his hearers sinners almost twenty times in his brief epistle.
Absolutely. But in this life, 'redemption from sin' and 'freedom from sin' are two very different things. One great day we will be absolutely free of sin, but in this life still struggle against it. If you don't, or if you don't think you do, then... Well, I'll just leave it at that. Do you believe there to be no longer any need for repentance? I hope not...
The law is not removed, and it is very relevant to us even now, not because we are under it but because it acts now as a "mirror" that points us to Jesus because of ~ among other things ~ our inability to fulfill it perfectly, and our need of a Savior, Who did, on our behalf.
Agreed. Absolutely. See, that's the strange thing... We agree on so much, yet you lecture me as if we don't. Yes, that's very strange. But such is being puffed up can do strange things to folks, even Christians... And sin, really... specifically pride, is surely tough to overcome... impossible in this life, really.
Grace and peace to you.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Becoming a Christian is a spiritual birth.
Its eternal.
God is not the giver of Faith in Christ.
God is only the giver of "the measure of Faith".
You have put your theology into Calvinism overdrive.
Calvinism is a "doctrine of devils".
Dont believe it, and dont teach it.
Again.......once a person has given God their Faith in Christ......God then redeemes them with Christ's Sacrifice.
If later the person has no faith, that has no bearing on what God has already completed.
= Once born again, = always born again.
Yes, this is a specific situation, regarding them.
We are not them.....so, when Jesus said they were chosen.........He is not talking about becoming a Christian, as that time none of the aposltes were Christians, they were just disciples.
So, what we have to do, is never apply a Jewish verse, as doctrine for a Christian, as if you do that, you have created a false theology.
Paul teaches us to "rightly divide" the word...........and that means.......you have to discern, if the verse is applicable as doctrine to the NT Body of Christ, or not.
Jesus has fulfilled the law for us.....and now we are to "present our bodies as a living sacrifice to God".
This does not mean, as the heretics teach.......>"ok, now that you are saved by the New Covenant, you go back under the law and try to keep it as your discipleship".
Not true.
For example, 1 Jn 1:9 is the Apostle talking to unbeleivers about their UNFORGIVEN sin.
He knows that JESUS has dealt with ALL the sin of a Christian, so he would not be talking to a born again, about "if we say we have no sin".
Freedom from sin and redemption, are the same.
Its walkling in the freedom, that is the failed discipleship of people who do not understand their salvation.
Paul says we are "dead to sin" so if the person is confessing it, that is because they have never learned anything about "the righteousness of God in Christ". They dont understand who they have become "IN Christ" as "ONE with God".
In other words they have not "worked out their salvation"....they are still without any real revelation regarding what this means = : "As CHRIST is.......so are the born again, in THIS world".
The law points the unbeliever to the Cross.
The born again have already been there and are become ... """not under the Law.......but UNDER GRACE"".
I dont lecture.
I just teach Pauline Theology to the student, and it does not allow anything else.....such as guessing or opinion or false theology.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is confidence, but does confidence always stand the test of truth? If confidence was all we needed, then the whole of Christendom with its complete disunity would be acceptable to Jesus…..but we know that it isn’t. (Matt 7:21-23)
There is one truth, not a multitude of different versions of it.
Who is to say that your confidence cannot be as misplaced as anyone else’s? Who is to say that your understanding of Scripture is the right one among the many differing opinions based on what respected scholars have said? Pick your scholars.
Have you heard of “the plural of majesty”? This is the “Royal We”, and was used by royalty to distinguish themselves from the common man. They applied that meaning to their own wishes and desires as if the common man were not in any position to dictate to them about anything.
Where God is concerned, the plural of majesty most definitely applies, but when applied to sinful humans where sin and imperfection has blighted all mortals, regardless of rank or class, it was just an excuse to be obeyed without question….to be obeyed under penalty of death….a position of authority hijacked by the clergy of “the church” during the darkest ages of man’s existence in the Christian Era.
Col 1:15-18, reinforces what was written in Gen 1:26….
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.” (ESV)
Read that carefully….how can a visible person be “the image” of someone who is invisible?…..and if Christ is the “firstborn of ALL CREATION”, then he existed before all creation, and is himself part of it, having been used as the agency “through” whom God created all things.
”All things were created THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM”…..
How was creation brought into existence “through him and for him”…..was God talking to himself in Genesis?
”He is the beginning of God’s creation“ which is what Rev 3:14 states.…and also “firstborn from the dead”…and we know that he was not the first person to be resurrected from the dead….
Proverbs 8:30-31 (claimed by scholars to refer to Jesus Christ) speaks of God’s “master workman” in creation as one who existed before the material Universe.
How do you reconcile these things?
No Jew would have accepted Jesus as God incarnate…..because their Shema identified their God as “one Yahweh”…..so calling Jesus “Yahweh” as some have tried to assert, is not only unscriptural, but blasphemy.
Even the apostles who were all Jewish knew who their “one God” was….
1 Cor 8:5-6…
“For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (ESV)
So, their “one God”…was “The Father”…AND.…their ”one Lord“ was “Jesus Christ”.….and this was so in amongst a people who had multiple gods.…all of which had names to distinguish them…..the God of the Jews at that time was nameless.
Does calling Jesus “Lord” mean that he is God”?
Sarah called Abraham “Lord” as a title of respect showing her subjection to him as her spiritual head. (1 Peter 3:5) So does Jesus have a spiritual head over him?
1 Cor 11:3..
”But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.“ (ESV)
This is what scripture says….
There are plenty of reasons, (not excuses) not to believe what the Bible itself does not teach.
I’d like to know how many times I have explained these verse from the Greek rather than from English mistranslations.
First of all, can we be clear about the word “theos” in Greek?
What does the Greek tell us, that the English translations miss? A very small word “ho”…which was used with “theos” or “τὸν”when used with Θεόν to identify “the God” of the Jews because he was at that time, unknown by his unique name. If you look at an interlinear you will see this one little word ignored, or with a dash, as if it wasn’t important.
Yet the only way they had to identify the “one God” of the Jews was to use the definite article “the”.
The Jews had disobediently stopped using God’s unique name in their speech, though it was still visible in their written scrolls. (Exodus 3:14-15)
God’s name “YAHWEH” was to be mentioned in all their generations.…and if they had been obedient, scriptures like John 1:1 would never have been used to promote what Jews never believed…..one that only became widely accepted hundreds of years after Christ’s death.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I can show you clearly that it is a mistranslation by the omission of that one very small word….
“In the beginning was the Word, (ho logos) and the Word (ho logos) was with God, (ho theos) and the Word (ho logos) was God. (theos without the definite article) He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.“
In Greek, without the definite article John 1:1 says the opposite of what it infers in English.
Had the divine name still been in use, the Greek would have read…..
In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine.
Jesus can be a “divine” without being “deity”, according to Strongs definition of the word “theos” (god).
This still backs up the son as being instrumental with his Father as the “master workman” of creation which was from God, but through the agency of his beloved son.
Verse 14…”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
So it was “the Word” (ho logos)….the one who was “with God” in the beginning, who became flesh, not Yahweh, (“ho theos”)
And then a few verses later we have this statement….in John 1:18….
“No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.”
Try and make some sense of that statement under a trinitarian lens?
“no one has ever seen God“ is a pretty clear statement…and the next part is also a bit of a dilemma for translators….in Greek it says “monogenes theos” which is literally “only begotten god”….so which is it?
How can we have a god who is “begotten” when Yahweh is an eternal being who required no Father to beget him? One who is begotten needs a begetter…..the one who existed before them and caused their existence.
Then we need a scripture to include a third “God” in the mix. One that proclaims that the Spirit too is God.
I see Matt 28:19-20 used to support this aspect of a threesome but nowhere in that verse does it identify these three as “one god”…..it is actually affirming that all Christians need the input of all three in order to reach dedication and baptism.
I also notice in verse 18 of Matt 28, that Jesus needed ”all authority in heaven and on earth” to be “given” to him….why would God need God to give himself what he already possessed?
Give me the logic of it…as it escapes me. Are you reading into the text what you want to see?
It just isn’t there. No scripture you provide will be without a suggestion as to what it means to trinitarians, yet it will not be what it actually says, backed up by other scripture.
Read your words again and see why I cannot believe what the Bible simply does not teach…..the devil has the whole of Christendom breaking the first Commandment! They have put a completely different god in place of Yahweh (Ex 20:3)….one that was created long after Jesus died.
Why is it that the majority who claim Jesus as their “Lord” will be rejected when he comes as judge….who will be left making excuses? (Matt 7:21-23) Those who are breaking God’s law…the first Commandment!
Nowhere does the Bible even suggest what you are claiming is biblical. There is no equality with the Father, as he alone is God, and he alone was recognized by the apostles as their “one God, the Father”.
You are arguing with them…not me.
Dash RipRock
Active Member
That explains the false doctrine you continue to share with others.
Little g lets us know which "god" you are serving.
And of course you believe It's God's will for most people to go to hell and He assigned only a few people to be saved.
Thank you for sharing as this shows you have been deceived by false doctrines of reformed theology not accepting what God's Word teaches in it's entirety
You should repent of your sins and get born again receiving the real Holy Spirit and ditch those religious demons to be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth. But, I won't be holding my breath since those indoctrinated in the wisdom of men rarely come out of the darkness they are chained to.
Dash RipRock
Active Member
2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
He thinks God decides who gets saved and God actively prevents all others from getting saved, you know typical demonic calvinist doctrine.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Quote...dasriprock...But I understand where you're coming from.
Lots of folks just cannot accept all that God says in His Word.
You understand that I cannot accept all that is written in God's word? (Question... Not a statement) Okay. (Sarcasm).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't think you understand much of what you read. Not only in scripture, but of what people here say to you. You misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that my confidence is somehow 100% proof of what I'm saying. You were questioning me as if I might not feel confident about what I was saying and I'm telling you otherwise. I believe my opinion has a lot of evidence to back it up. I was not hesitant in what I was saying as if I felt unsure of what I was talking about.
No, you read that carefully. That passage is talking about Jesus. That is undeniable. And it says He created all things. And we both know that God created all things. Therefore, Jesus is God. What is hard to understand about this?
As for Jesus being the image of the invisible God, it's not talking about a visible image of God, but rather He reflected who God is by the way He lived His life. He was sinless. He loved people and His actions always showed that, including His sacrifice for the sins of the world. He showed how much God loved everyone by making that sacrifice. He was "God with us", the Word made flesh, showing us who God is by the way He lived His life and by the way He sacrificed His life.
Who else existed before all creation except for God? No one. That means He is God.
In a way, yes, He was. He is one God but has a plural nature to Him in the form of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We should not expect that God should be exactly like us. His ways are far beyond our ways and He Himself is far beyond us. What is your problem with God existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
You again are not differentiating between His deity and His humanity. That only leads to confusion.
Once again, you fail to differentiate between His deity and His humanity.
Tell me, do you believe God accepts for anyone or anything to be worshiped besides Himself? I know He does not. And, yet....
Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Jesus accepted the worship of His disciples. If He was not God, that would have been blasphemy because God does not accept for anyone or anything to be worshiped except for Himself. Also, God would not give all authority in heaven and earth to anyone who was not equal to Himself. Jesus said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). There is no chance that He would accept worship and would accept being given all authority unless He was God because He would have surely known He would be committing blasphemy otherwise.
Look. You have been deceived by a false religion and God says to you: "Come out of her, Aunty Jane!". I have showed you the truth of this matter, so now you have no excuse for continuing to believe the lie you have been taught. You need to come to the same realization that Thomas did.
John 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”.
Now, it's time for you to acknowledge that Jesus is your Lord and your God! Repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord, your God and your Savior! Now is the time of salvation! Not after you die and are resurrected.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What is the excuse you have for not reading ALL of scripture? You are blatantly contradicting what scripture teaches. You say "there is no equality with the Father"? Have you never read this...
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
Or this...
Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
This passage explicitly teaches that Jesus was equal with God the Father and was also "made in human likeness". So, he was 100% God and also 100% man at the same time. It can't be more clear. Yet, you still deny it.
Sigh...
Grace and peace to you.
Agree. Born again of the Spirit. Sure.
Well, right, but we are not in eternity (the age to come) yet. But yes.
God is the giver of faith, through which we are in Christ, and therefore have salvation and eternal life. I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here, but at this point am not concerned about that. In each one of us as born-again Christians, we have this measure of faith, which varies from Christian to Christian, but this is by His will. In the sense that all that's needed is faith "as a mustard seed" ~ which is to say that even the smallest measure is sufficient ~ it doesn't matter what the measure, from smallest to largest, actually is.
That's very strange that you would say that, because you seem to be teaching it at least to a large extent. <smile> Again, we apparently agree on a lot.
Again, faith is God-given assurance, which is... attained... when the Spirit gives a person the new birth, which, as you said, is spiritual... of and by the Holy Spirit.
Which will not happen, because the Holy Spirit maintains that faith ~ which is, again, God's assurance ~ in the Christian. If later the person has no faith, Behold, no salvific faith, then he or she never had it in the first place, despite how it may have looked on the outside looking in, either by others or by the person himself or herself.
Absolutely, No need to be re-reborn... <smile>
We are Christ's disciples, followers of Christ. Not one of the original twelve, and not apostles, but, as Christ said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20). We are but two of those disciples that have been made. And... no, we are not disciples of the disciples. <smile>
He is; Paul closely echoes Jesus's words in Ephesians 2:4-10.
Oh my. They would not have been Christ's disciples if they were not Christians. They were not yet actually called Christians (that happened for the first time in Antioch, which we see in Acts), but they were in Christ.
There is no Jew or Greek; we are all one in Christ Jesus.
Right, but that does not mean you are free to cut out what you don't like. <smile>
Right, but all these things are spiritually discerned, and that cannot happen unless we have the Spirit.
Right. Absolutely.
Nope. John says at the outset of his letter, "we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete" (1 John 1:4), which is to say we already have it, and we would not have it if we were not yet born of the Spirit. He's talking there of our need to repent and confess, in this life, on an ongoing basis, and our ongoing need for forgiveness, and, "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
This I agree with. But our forgiveness is not a once-and-for-all thing. Maybe you're a "OFAF" ('F' for forgiven)... <smile> or a "ORAR" ('R' for repented)... but that is very unbiblical. <smile>
We disagree. In this life, we still sin. Again, Paul speaks in all his letters about the Christian struggle and striving against against sin. On the other hand, unbelievers do not have this struggle, because they do not acknowledge sin at all. If you don't struggle against sin, Behold, that should cause you to question your own status as a Christian.
Not in the sense that we no longer sin and are thus without sin, sinless, as Jesus was.
"In the freedom"... Do you mean that in the sense of freedom to sin? If so, then yes, I agree.
Yes... and therefore slaves to righteousness...
They have not been made sinless or perfectly righteous, but are now clothed in the righteousness of Christ. We are not yet righteous in and of ourselves. But God sees us as righteousness, because Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us, credited to us, as was the case with Abraham.
This is also an ongoing thing in this life for the Christian. We are to, yes, "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in (us), both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). And this is just after Paul has said (as you cited earlier), "he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).
As I said, yes.
Absolutely. <smile>
You certainly have been. You say you have been teaching, and, in so doing, you have been lecturing. You can pin the lecturing thing on me, too, I don't mind. <smile>
Well, good, but not correctly, not totally, at least... <smile> ...and I am certainly not your student. <smile>
Hmmm, well, one can still be mistaken regarding some of Paul's theology. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Nice to see you straining at a gnat (small g) while you swallow camels and make judgments without ascertaining facts! Not a Christian thing to do.
I never siad it is Gods will for most people to go to hell. Thgat is you making lying assumptions about my beliefs.
Have the last word, If you wish to tell me I am no tsaved, there is no profit in having any conversation with one such as you.
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