Can a tare become saved?

[Scott Downey]

He does not. He says, Behold, that every Christian has a measure of faith.


Every Christian is give that by God, and thus every Christian has it. And not just "something"...


Paul never says, Behold, exactly what faith is. But the writer of Hebrews ~ who had God's Word breathed into him just as much as Paul did... <smile> ~ does.


HAHAHA! Yes, thank you. <smile> And the same to you, of course. <smile>


Nor are they Arminians. <smile> But again, John Calvin was right about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and Scripture in general. As was Paul, of course, but what he wrote was breathed into him by the Holy Spirit, so... yeah.


John Calvin was right in his expositions of the Bible. As opposed to Jacobus Arminius, who was... wrong. I'm with ya on the labels, though... <smile>

Good day, Behold.

I don't go to a reformed church or believe everything Calvin wrote, but he had the right ideas on how God saves us.
The Catholics got way lost from the gospel, and God raised up the reformers to bring the church back to the truth.
Starting with I suppose Luther.
Then Catholics started persecuting and killing those of the reformation and justifying themselves That was very unchrist like things to do.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In a sense, Ronald, we agree.

But there is another sense, the one in which, naturally speaking, we are all tares/goats from the beginning. We have all fallen short of the glory of God.

Grace and peace to you.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

But, I wonder if you fully understand the point that was being made. If I'm understanding the point correctly, then we first would need to define who the tares represent.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, the tares are the children of the wicked one, which is the devil. So, who are the children of the devil?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So, this passage describes children of the devil as being unsaved sinners in general. So, based on that definition, can't it be said that the people who the tares represent, who are the children of the devil, can be described as "tares/goats" in that sense?

 

[Brakelite]

if you have eternal life, you can still go to Hell, because you can fall away. That's... a curious conundrum...

I think the Greek word for apostasy has the same meaning as divorce. While God will never file divorce papers against us, we may do so against Him by believing a lie and walking away from truth. Divorce has the essential ingredient of a sound former relationship, but that relationship broken off by us. Incidentally, it was always Israel who walked away from God by worshipping idols and embracing the paganism of the surrounding cultures. All that after God had made numerous promises regarding their security, safety, health and long life. They would believe for a while. Just like Christians. But the world, it's attractions, distractions, and promises of immediate gratification draws many a Christian into sin and love for idols. Never God's fault, all ours. Nor is it because we weren't "of them". For some yes, but there have been many who turn away to their own ideas and unbelief.

 

[Brakelite]

But, I wonder if you fully understand the point that was being made. If I'm understanding the point correctly, then we first would need to define who the tares represent.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, the tares are the children of the wicked one, which is the devil. So, who are the children of the devil?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So, this passage describes children of the devil as being unsaved sinners in general. So, based on that definition, can't it be said that the people who the tares represent, who are the children of the devil, can be described as "tares/goats" in that sense?

You have to realise however where these tares are. Jesus's isn't talking about the world. He's discussing the church... Where the wheat is. Outside are unbelievers sure, but they aren't tares sown by the devil in the church.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think the Greek word footy apostasy has the same meaning as divorce.

The Greek word "apostasia" means a defiance of an established system or authority. Divorce is quite different from that.

...we may do so against Him by believing a lie and walking away from truth.

This is an act of defiance, even rebellion. It's what Paul talks about in Romans 1, that unbelievers have "exchanged the truth for a lie" and "worship creation rather than the Creator." And these God "gives over to their own selfish passions and desires." And this is possible even for those who may have thought they were Christians for a time and even experienced the goodness of God (Hebrews 6), but even that can happen in a person who is yet unregenerate of the Lord. If a person is born again of the Spirit, he or she may stray for a time, but God, in His time, will bring them back, one way or another. Jonah is a great example. Something about a great fish swallowing him and vomiting him three days later onto dry land... <smile>

...it was always Israel who walked away from God by worshipping idols and embracing the paganism of the surrounding cultures...

And God always brought them back to Him, using various means ranging from great compassion to stern ~ even severe sometimes ~ discipline,

...there have been many who turn away to their own ideas and unbelief.

Sure. But if they remain there, they were never of God. Now, as for us, if we see someone who has turned away, we cannot really know if they are just straying or if they are truly not of God or will not be at some point, so we don't give up on them. Right? But even so, we rest in the fact that God, by the work of His Spirit, will bring them back if it's His will. Just like the Israelites. But He may not, as... "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Brakelite]

The Greek word "apostasia" means a defiance of an established system or authority. Divorce is quite different from that.

I was thinking of the expression in 2 Thess 3:3 that has reference to the man of sin, or Antichrist. That falling away...apostasia...from Strongs...
646 ἀποστασία apostasia ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
‭
‭feminine of the same as 647; n f; TDNT-1:513,88; {See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
‭
‭1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

647 ἀποστάσιον apostasion ap-os-tas’-ee-on
‭
‭neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of 868; n n; { See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-divorcement 2, writing of divorcement 1; 3
‭
‭1) divorce, repudiation
‭2) a bill of divorce

And God always brought them back to Him, using various means ranging from great compassion to stern ~ even severe sometimes ~ discipline,

I agree that God does not let anyone go easily. He will absolutely follow them wherever they go, and do all He can to draw them back. But I am firmly of the belief that He leaves them with the final choice. He will present them with all His best arguments, reminders of all the promises in their favour, the times He had forgiven them in the past, and the promise that if they repent, He will forgive them now. But with some, just as it was with Israel, that they will stubbornly refuse.
“37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. ”
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Yes, some of Israel would come back. But they left many in Babylon who were satisfied and content with their lives in the comfort and wealth of the big city. And died in her at the hands of the Persians.

 

[Brakelite]

@PinSeeker
That falling away has a double fulfilment. It was first referencing the great falling away in the early centuries of the church in Rome that was at first in a true relationship with the Lord, but in later centuries apostatized in favour of the baubles and splendor of civil power in the place of the Ceasars.
The second falling away we are witnessing today with the rush of blood to the head of evangelicals and charismatics by turning away from Jesus and trusting in Trump and the power of the state to establish Christianity as a state religion in America. That experiment with the union of church and state will end up in national ruin and deepening falling away from the true faith and a final divorce from God's kingdom.

 

[Scott Downey]

I was thinking of the expression in 2 Thess 3:3 that has reference to the man of sin, or Antichrist. That falling away...apostasia...from Strongs...
646 ἀποστασία apostasia ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
‭
‭feminine of the same as 647; n f; TDNT-1:513,88; {See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
‭
‭1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

647 ἀποστάσιον apostasion ap-os-tas’-ee-on
‭
‭neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of 868; n n; { See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-divorcement 2, writing of divorcement 1; 3
‭
‭1) divorce, repudiation
‭2) a bill of divorce

I agree that God does not let anyone go easily. He will absolutely follow them wherever they go, and do all He can to draw them back. But I am firmly of the belief that He leaves them with the final choice. He will present them with all His best arguments, reminders of all the promises in their favour, the times He had forgiven them in the past, and the promise that if they repent, He will forgive them now. But with some, just as it was with Israel, that they will stubbornly refuse.
“37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. ”
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Yes, some of Israel would come back. But they left many in Babylon who were satisfied and content with their lives in the comfort and wealth of the big city. And died in her at the hands of the Persians.

But we are in a different covenant today, with a different mediator with better promises.
Jesus does not lose a single one that the Father has given to Him

All these examples show that as true.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 10

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


John 18
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”

5 They answered Him, “Jesus [a]of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”

And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course only the elect will have faith and be saved,
Only the sheep of Christ believe in Him
And the Father gave to Christ His sheep (believers)

John 10

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

****************************************************************
Your belief in Christ has been granted you by the Father
****************************************************************

Philippians 1

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.