Can a tare become saved?

[Scott Downey]

He does not. He says, Behold, that every Christian has a measure of faith.


Every Christian is give that by God, and thus every Christian has it. And not just "something"...


Paul never says, Behold, exactly what faith is. But the writer of Hebrews ~ who had God's Word breathed into him just as much as Paul did... <smile> ~ does.


HAHAHA! Yes, thank you. <smile> And the same to you, of course. <smile>


Nor are they Arminians. <smile> But again, John Calvin was right about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and Scripture in general. As was Paul, of course, but what he wrote was breathed into him by the Holy Spirit, so... yeah.


John Calvin was right in his expositions of the Bible. As opposed to Jacobus Arminius, who was... wrong. I'm with ya on the labels, though... <smile>

Good day, Behold.

I don't go to a reformed church or believe everything Calvin wrote, but he had the right ideas on how God saves us.
The Catholics got way lost from the gospel, and God raised up the reformers to bring the church back to the truth.
Starting with I suppose Luther.
Then Catholics started persecuting and killing those of the reformation and justifying themselves That was very unchrist like things to do.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In a sense, Ronald, we agree.

But there is another sense, the one in which, naturally speaking, we are all tares/goats from the beginning. We have all fallen short of the glory of God.

Grace and peace to you.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

But, I wonder if you fully understand the point that was being made. If I'm understanding the point correctly, then we first would need to define who the tares represent.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, the tares are the children of the wicked one, which is the devil. So, who are the children of the devil?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So, this passage describes children of the devil as being unsaved sinners in general. So, based on that definition, can't it be said that the people who the tares represent, who are the children of the devil, can be described as "tares/goats" in that sense?

 

[Brakelite]

if you have eternal life, you can still go to Hell, because you can fall away. That's... a curious conundrum...

I think the Greek word for apostasy has the same meaning as divorce. While God will never file divorce papers against us, we may do so against Him by believing a lie and walking away from truth. Divorce has the essential ingredient of a sound former relationship, but that relationship broken off by us. Incidentally, it was always Israel who walked away from God by worshipping idols and embracing the paganism of the surrounding cultures. All that after God had made numerous promises regarding their security, safety, health and long life. They would believe for a while. Just like Christians. But the world, it's attractions, distractions, and promises of immediate gratification draws many a Christian into sin and love for idols. Never God's fault, all ours. Nor is it because we weren't "of them". For some yes, but there have been many who turn away to their own ideas and unbelief.

 

[Brakelite]

But, I wonder if you fully understand the point that was being made. If I'm understanding the point correctly, then we first would need to define who the tares represent.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, the tares are the children of the wicked one, which is the devil. So, who are the children of the devil?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So, this passage describes children of the devil as being unsaved sinners in general. So, based on that definition, can't it be said that the people who the tares represent, who are the children of the devil, can be described as "tares/goats" in that sense?

You have to realise however where these tares are. Jesus's isn't talking about the world. He's discussing the church... Where the wheat is. Outside are unbelievers sure, but they aren't tares sown by the devil in the church.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think the Greek word footy apostasy has the same meaning as divorce.

The Greek word "apostasia" means a defiance of an established system or authority. Divorce is quite different from that.

...we may do so against Him by believing a lie and walking away from truth.

This is an act of defiance, even rebellion. It's what Paul talks about in Romans 1, that unbelievers have "exchanged the truth for a lie" and "worship creation rather than the Creator." And these God "gives over to their own selfish passions and desires." And this is possible even for those who may have thought they were Christians for a time and even experienced the goodness of God (Hebrews 6), but even that can happen in a person who is yet unregenerate of the Lord. If a person is born again of the Spirit, he or she may stray for a time, but God, in His time, will bring them back, one way or another. Jonah is a great example. Something about a great fish swallowing him and vomiting him three days later onto dry land... <smile>

...it was always Israel who walked away from God by worshipping idols and embracing the paganism of the surrounding cultures...

And God always brought them back to Him, using various means ranging from great compassion to stern ~ even severe sometimes ~ discipline,

...there have been many who turn away to their own ideas and unbelief.

Sure. But if they remain there, they were never of God. Now, as for us, if we see someone who has turned away, we cannot really know if they are just straying or if they are truly not of God or will not be at some point, so we don't give up on them. Right? But even so, we rest in the fact that God, by the work of His Spirit, will bring them back if it's His will. Just like the Israelites. But He may not, as... "He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Brakelite]

The Greek word "apostasia" means a defiance of an established system or authority. Divorce is quite different from that.

I was thinking of the expression in 2 Thess 3:3 that has reference to the man of sin, or Antichrist. That falling away...apostasia...from Strongs...
646 ἀποστασία apostasia ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
‭
‭feminine of the same as 647; n f; TDNT-1:513,88; {See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
‭
‭1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

647 ἀποστάσιον apostasion ap-os-tas’-ee-on
‭
‭neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of 868; n n; { See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-divorcement 2, writing of divorcement 1; 3
‭
‭1) divorce, repudiation
‭2) a bill of divorce

And God always brought them back to Him, using various means ranging from great compassion to stern ~ even severe sometimes ~ discipline,

I agree that God does not let anyone go easily. He will absolutely follow them wherever they go, and do all He can to draw them back. But I am firmly of the belief that He leaves them with the final choice. He will present them with all His best arguments, reminders of all the promises in their favour, the times He had forgiven them in the past, and the promise that if they repent, He will forgive them now. But with some, just as it was with Israel, that they will stubbornly refuse.
“37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. ”
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Yes, some of Israel would come back. But they left many in Babylon who were satisfied and content with their lives in the comfort and wealth of the big city. And died in her at the hands of the Persians.

 

[Brakelite]

@PinSeeker
That falling away has a double fulfilment. It was first referencing the great falling away in the early centuries of the church in Rome that was at first in a true relationship with the Lord, but in later centuries apostatized in favour of the baubles and splendor of civil power in the place of the Ceasars.
The second falling away we are witnessing today with the rush of blood to the head of evangelicals and charismatics by turning away from Jesus and trusting in Trump and the power of the state to establish Christianity as a state religion in America. That experiment with the union of church and state will end up in national ruin and deepening falling away from the true faith and a final divorce from God's kingdom.

 

[Scott Downey]

I was thinking of the expression in 2 Thess 3:3 that has reference to the man of sin, or Antichrist. That falling away...apostasia...from Strongs...
646 ἀποστασία apostasia ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
‭
‭feminine of the same as 647; n f; TDNT-1:513,88; {See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2
‭
‭1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

647 ἀποστάσιον apostasion ap-os-tas’-ee-on
‭
‭neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of 868; n n; { See TDNT 116}
‭
‭AV-divorcement 2, writing of divorcement 1; 3
‭
‭1) divorce, repudiation
‭2) a bill of divorce

I agree that God does not let anyone go easily. He will absolutely follow them wherever they go, and do all He can to draw them back. But I am firmly of the belief that He leaves them with the final choice. He will present them with all His best arguments, reminders of all the promises in their favour, the times He had forgiven them in the past, and the promise that if they repent, He will forgive them now. But with some, just as it was with Israel, that they will stubbornly refuse.
“37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. ”
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Yes, some of Israel would come back. But they left many in Babylon who were satisfied and content with their lives in the comfort and wealth of the big city. And died in her at the hands of the Persians.

But we are in a different covenant today, with a different mediator with better promises.
Jesus does not lose a single one that the Father has given to Him

All these examples show that as true.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 10

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


John 18
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”

5 They answered Him, “Jesus [a]of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”

And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course only the elect will have faith and be saved,
Only the sheep of Christ believe in Him
And the Father gave to Christ His sheep (believers)

John 10

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

****************************************************************
Your belief in Christ has been granted you by the Father
****************************************************************

Philippians 1

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

 

[Behold]

He does not. He says, Behold, that every Christian has a measure of faith.

Your Calvinism is up and running again @PinSeeker .

Let me show you the fallacy of it..

Unbelievers are not caused to trust in Christ.......they are required to give their faith.


See, God could not HONESTLY hold anyone accountable for rejecting Christ, (which is why you go to Hell) if God didnt cause them to believe........as in that case, it would be God's Fault, not theirs.

See, When Jesus told you.....>"ALL who believe in Me, i give unto them, eternal life"..........>He's speaking about those who have not yet given God thir Faith in Christ Yet.

See it?

Notice this..

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNER".........not give them faith to believe, as Lying John Calvinism teaches.

God requires our faith in Christ.... God is looking for YOUR FAITH..........not His faith.

 

[grafted branch]

But we are in a different covenant today, with a different mediator with better promises.
Jesus does not lose a single one that the Father has given to Him

That’s an interesting thought. The old covenant was definitely bilateral where God and man each had duties to perform. I would say the new covenant is unilateral where God performs and man reacts to that. I’m thinking of Jeremiah 31:33 I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

We could say man had the free will to either perform or not perform their obligations of the old covenant. But if the new covenant is looked at as unilateral then man doesn’t have a choice, God will perform His obligations to that covenant.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your Calvinism is up and running again @PinSeeker .

Let me show you the fallacy of it..

Unbelievers are not caused to trust in Christ.......they are required to give their faith.

Faith is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8) Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22)

See, God could not HONESTLY hold anyone accountable for rejecting Christ, (which is why you go to Hell) if God didnt cause them to believe........as in that case, it would be God's Fault, not theirs.

God creates everything.

God requires our faith in Christ.... God is looking for YOUR FAITH..........not His faith.

If we supply faith, then our salvation is meritorious.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your Calvinism is up and running again @PinSeeker .

Okay, well, so is your Arminianism.

Let me show you the fallacy of it..

Unbelievers are not caused to trust in Christ....

This is not what I have said; it is not a Calvinistic belief. At all. This is just one example of what I meant when I said your premises are erroneous; your supposed "fallacy" is itself fallacious <smile>. So you're not really "showing me" anything, Behold, except you're... well... <smile>

See...

I do see. I was blind, but now I see. Yes. <smile>

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"....

Right, people who could not save themselves. You remember, I'm sure: Christ's disciples asked Him, "Who then can be saved?" And Jesus looked at them and replied, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

.....not give them faith to believe, as Lying John Calvinism teaches.

He doesn't teach that, Behold. He doesn't. Well, didn't, as he's long dead... But yes, didn't teach that, Behold. And neither do Calvinists ever since then. Our faith is the vehicle given by God through which we are saved... "by grace you have been saved through faith... this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are His workmanship..."

God is looking for YOUR FAITH...

And if He gives it... again, if He gives you assurance of things hoped for and conviction of things not seen, then yes, He will "find it"... <smile>...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

.......not His faith.

<chuckles> God certainly doesn't have to assure Himself of anything. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Behold

 

[Behold]

Okay, well, so is your Arminianism.

You claim to be a Calvinist.
Welcome to being mind owned by a "doctrine of devils."

Now...Remember this..

Christians lead people to Christ

Deceived Calvinists, = lead people to their Idol, = John Calvinism.

I said your premises are erroneous;

You "said" my premises are erroneous"......however if you post a quote of mine that you perceive as one of those, i'll again show you what you didnt understand.

Right, people who could not save themselves. You remember, I'm sure: Christ's disciples asked Him, "Who then can be saved?" And Jesus looked at them and replied, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

"People" still can't "save themselves" and when the apostles said...." who can be saved"....there was no Salvation offered yet, and no Christians created yet.

A.) No Cross = No Christianity

"by grace you have been saved through faith... this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are His workmanship..."

Listen, the ""faith"" is not the ""gift"".........the gift is the SALVATiON..... and Calvin also could not understand this.. and He led you there.

Faith in Christ is what we give God, as our "faith is counted by God, as righteousness"..

Its our faith......that He "counts"........as He doesn't need His., He need ours.

if He gives you assurance of things hoped for and conviction of things not seen, then yes, He will "find it"... <smile>...the

You added to the verse your TULIP training...

You added "if HE GIVES".....and that is not found in that verse, in any bible, but those words are always found inside a Calvinist's mind.

Have you notice that a Hyper-Calvinist will look at the NT and everywhere they see........

"Elect"
"Pre-destined"

And those words wont be in the verses, or in the Chapter.
For example........a deceived Hyper Calvinist, will read......> John 3:16...."For God so loved the WORLD".......and they SEE.. "For God so loved the ELECT"

See that?
That is how John Calvinism infects the mind of a Calvinist, and eventually they'll never be able to stop it from happening , inside their mind that is owned by CALVINISM.

They'll get to the dead end point, where if you ask them......>"Are you a Christian"...they'll say....>>"Yes, im a Calvinist".
And.....When they are beyond mental and spiritual recovery, they will say...."Calvinism is Christianity"..
So, do you see the Calvinism sickness in their mind, Reader?
God does, and He didnt put it there.

 

[Scott Downey]

That’s an interesting thought. The old covenant was definitely bilateral where God and man each had duties to perform. I would say the new covenant is unilateral where God performs and man reacts to that. I’m thinking of Jeremiah 31:33 I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

We could say man had the free will to either perform or not perform their obligations of the old covenant. But if the new covenant is looked at as unilateral then man doesn’t have a choice, God will perform His obligations to that covenant.

What are your thoughts on this?

When you look at the New Testament, you do not find choose used as in 'choose this day whom you will serve', but you do find 'chose'
as what God did for those He saves mentioned a lot.

Like this

2 Thess 2
13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

*************
The New Covenant is on God to perform and bring us into it.
And He also did that in the covenant He called Abraham into.
God puts Abraham to a deep sleep, and God walks between the carcasses Himself without Abraham.
Abraham believed God and God then said he was righteous, a righteousness by faith, not obedience to rules and regulations.
However, the OC promises of the LAW given by Moses depended on their obedience to perform it or the people would fail the covenant, and fail they did time and again.

Genesis 15
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”

8 And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”

9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”




Found this
"The new covenant represents the culmination of God’s saving work among his people. God regenerates his people by his Spirit and renews their hearts so that they obey him. The basis for such renewal is the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, for by his atoning death and resurrection complete forgiveness of sins is achieved. Hence, a new and bold access to God that wasn’t available in the old covenant is obtained. The covenant with Israel has passed away, and now the promise is fulfilled in the restored Israel, which consists of both Jews and Gentiles. All the promises made to Abraham and David are fulfilled in the new covenant."

 

[Scott Downey]

The OC was a ministry of DEATH and CONDEMNATION

2 Corinthains 3

The Spirit, Not the Letter​

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant​

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 8, the OC they did not continue in with God, and God then disregarded them
They broke covenant with God.
And this new covenant is in effect, as it says, 'HE has obtained', yes it is really in effect today, unlike some people who say it is not.

Hebrews 8
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the [a]sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[PinSeeker]

Christians lead people to Christ

Ah, so Christians cause... or make... people believe in Christ? <smile> I mean, I know you're not really saying that, but faith does come by hearing, yes, just as Paul says in Romans 10:17.

You "said" my premises are erroneous"....

Right, because they are.

I'll again show you what you didn't understand...

LOL!

"People" still can't "save themselves"...

No, but by saying what you're saying about faith and what it is and how it is acquired, in effect, you are in fact saying that they can. So what you can't... or refuse to... see is the conundrum you create for yourself by doing so.

and when the apostles said...." who can be saved"....there was no Salvation offered yet, and no Christians created yet.

Oh my goodness. So the disciples were not Christians yet. Wow. <chuckles>

I mean, Behold, they were not actually called Christians yet, but... Oh my goodness.

Listen, the ""faith"" is not the ""gift""....

Paul would disagree and was very clear in saying otherwise in Romans 12, Ephesians 2, and 1 Corinthians 12. I thought you were a Pauline theology guy... <smile>

Faith in Christ is what we give God...

Exactly as Jacobus Arminius erroneously said. And Pelagius centuries before him. And you (and others, of course, continue to carry that torch. What you're doing here, Behold, in effect, is making faith a work. Yet again, Paul says, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." You say you subscribe to "Pauline Theology," but yet refute it continually, and that's a curious conundrum.

You added "if HE GIVES".....and that is not found in that verse...

Not sure what verse you're even talking about, but no matter, Faith is the assurance of God and conviction by the Spirit. Obviously, for us to have God's assurance, He has to give it.

Okay, I'm dismissing the rest, Behold... because it's ridiculous... I would advise against it, but you can keep banging your head against that brick wall if you... you know... so desire... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

Ah, so Christians cause... or make... people believe in Christ?

Bible class : 101

1 Corinthians 1:18-25 KJV

"""For the PREACHING OF... THE... CROSS.....is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God""""

Now, when i prreach Paul's Gospel... God is there when I do this, or when I share Jesus .by witnessing, and God The Holy Spirit opens the listening unbelievers Heart, not their mind....because...."faith comes by hearing".. not by God causing you to believe..... ...So, they realize they are a sinner needing salvation, as this is revealed in their heart where THEIR FAITH Lives..
So, they are caused by the Holy Spirit to realized (enlightened) that they NEED to give their Faith in Christ to God, for their forgiveness.

What will they choose to do with their faith ????????????? now that they are "enlightened" by the Holy Spirit?

So, they have FREE WILL and now they will us it.

Paul would disagree and was very clear in saying otherwise in Romans 12, Ephesians 2, and 1 Corinthians 12. I thought you were a Pauline theology guy...

Posting chapters, but no verses or explanations, to pretend you know what they teach, is a very carnal game.
Continue it, if that is your ministry.

What you're doing here, Behold, in effect, is making faith a work.

Faith in found the heart, and there is no work found there.