Do you believe the lie?

[Hiddenthings]

Is it deceptive to claim that Jesus is God when He claimed that Himself? No, of course not. It's deceptive to claim that He is not God.

John 8:58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Hey Spiritual, do you think there could be another way of interpreting this verse? Or only one way?

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is so much to address here, @Hiddenthings but I will do my best. It seems to me that you have departed from the teachings of the church on many things, but instead of relying on scripture to interpret scripture you have put your own spin on things are are seeking those who might support your vIew…..quite frankly, I don’t know of any group who hold your beliefs…..are you a member of any denomination in Christendom? Do you have a brotherhood who shares your beliefs?

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is so much to address here, @Hiddenthings but I will do my best. It seems to me that you have departed from the teachings of the church on many things, but instead of relying on scripture to interpret scripture you have put your own spin on things are are seeking those who might support your vIew…..quite frankly, I don’t know of any group who hold your beliefs…..are you a member of any denomination in Christendom? Do you have a brotherhood who shares your beliefs?

From our brief interaction, it seems to me that the departure from Scripture currently rests on your side. I remain confident that the Lord Jesus Christ fully understood the nature of both the future saints and the angels. For context, I’m a Unitarian and part of a reasonably large community that shares this understanding.

I’m genuinely interested in how you reconcile the idea of angels sinning and dying and how your view of the reward avoids that same possibility. As you’d understand, when a false doctrine is upheld, there’s often a need within an organisation to “find a way” to justify its position.

I'm sensing this strongly from you.

Your assumptions so far appear to be:

• That angels are of a different nature than the future glorified saints, yet no Scripture has been provided to support this distinction.
• That Christ will reign from heaven rather than on earth, despite the clear teaching and understanding of the apostles to the contrary.

I think it would be better for you to focus on proving the first point and set the second aside for now.

Where does the Lord make a distinction in nature --- that saints cannot sin or be killed, while angels supposedly can?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Actually we do as we are called to abide IN Christ.

Those that don't are taken away according to Jesus in John 15.

Ever read what Jesus said in John 15? View attachment 63105

They have shampoo's for that.


I read John 6:39
"Of all that the father gives me I shall lose none.''

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 5 -
Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Good reference. God would not accept anyone but Himself to be worshiped, so the Lamb (Jesus) is God. Here's another one...

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

The disciples worshiped Jesus. Again, God does not accept anyone but Him to be worshiped. And it says all authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus. God the Father would not give all authority to anyone less than Himself.

 

[Hiddenthings]

They have shampoo's for that.


I read John 6:39
"Of all that the father gives me I shall lose none.''

...though there was an exception

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have addressed all those verses so many times, but your ‘programming’ is worse than you think mine is.

There are many more than just those and you are required to twist all of them to fit your false doctrine. You can't take any of them straightforwardly. You have to twist and contort them to fit your false religion.

None of them say what you think they do,

They all say what I know they do.

as a thorough study of the Bible will reveal.

You know nothing about what the Bible teaches.

Jesus never once said he was God with a capital “g”. Original language word studies will completely undo what you think those translations are saying.

No, they will not. You obviously think that all of the English translators were idiots. Why in the world do you trust that any word in any of the English translations is true when you think that the translators of all of those English translations wrongly translated all of the many verses which show that Jesus is God?

I will give you just one short statement from the apostles as to whom they believed their God was…..
1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.“ (ESV)

Were the apostles in any doubt about who was their “one God”?

You are failing to differentiate between the deity of Christ and the humanity of Christ.

Was Thomas mistaken when He called Jesus "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)?

Why would the disciples worship Jesus if they didn't think He was God? Do you think God would accept anyone but Him to be worshiped? Absolutely not!

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

It's sad that you can't agree with what Paul said in the following passage:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

All were Jewish, so to suggest that Jesus was anything other than what he said about himself would have been blasphemy….and the Jews would have had a provable case.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. Absolutely none. You are cherry picking scripture to suit your doctrine. Repent of your denial of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ before it's too late! Now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).

 

[PS95]

Let me demonstrate how people twist what we believe….
If Paul stated that at death we are “acquitted (“dikaioō”) from sin”, having paid sin’s wages, we have therefore served the stated sentence, and like all prisoners who have done so, are released with a clean slate from that day forward. You don’t go on punishing people who have served their time.

Lets' have a look at that Jane, shall we? ONCE AGAIN since you never seem to reply to this chapter in context or want to even learn a thing from anyone else since only JWS are teachers. sigh.. what a mess.

Romans 6:7 is what you are referring to.... verse 7 is only 1/7 of one sentence.. lets look at it all...
. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

There ya go. Just a little bit of context. Paul is not speaking to physical death at all there. He is speaking about being born anew in Christ and how believers have died along with Him. We are baptized into his death and so on. Please read the chapter! I am tired of having to post this for you. I have doing it since last summer! Get that bible out and read what it says not just 1/7 of a sentence!

And if you still can't get it please see Romans 6:18 then Same chapter! It's right there~~~
Paul is even dumbing it down in "human terms" for us. See it yet?
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Paul is NOT teaching that when you physically die that your sins are all forgiven or paid for or gone. No, he is speaking about believer's who have (spiritually) DIED with Christ -- our sins are acquitted by the blood of Christ. Read it all in your bible!! baptized into His death, risen to new life... this is speaking about our lives NOW. --Not at death. Please read the CHAPTER.

Let's keep going.. Colossians 3:3
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Gal 2:20
20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


I could keep going here with many others but since you never reply to any of this I will not waste my time this time. Now stop peddling your lie of death paying for your sin debt. It does not and can not! You are not sinless perfection!! Only Jesus is.
Stop ignoring Jesus' blood which He shed for our sins!

Is your out and out disrespect for the Lord Jesus and for the people here because JWs teach that your deeds in this life do not matter? You know you JWs teach that!! So, all I can think of as to why you are here LYING to these people is because you just don't care. You get a free resurrection just by DYING! You sure have been shown enough times that it is false.

God does not sentence sinners to ECT because that is not the purpose of the resurrection. There are no “immortal souls” in the Bible….it is NOT a Bible teaching, so there is nowhere for “souls” to be tormented or to suffer in any way after death. Death is the penalty for any sin committed under the law, deserving of such a sentence. God’s law never required torture for any crime.

It is the blood of Christ that frees sinners from death…..it is not according to anything we have earned….Jesus came to rescue us from the death sentence we inherited from Adam. Those in their graves will be raised out of them by Jesus…..as he says….
John 5:28-29…

Blood of Christ-- what you mean when you say that is that we don't STAY dead in the grave because after we died to pay for our own sins by DYING .. Jesus auto-resurrects the made sinless by death to give us a 2nd chance.
bzzzt! wrong Jane.

You want a definition of “Christendom”?….they are the “weeds” sown by the devil. They all teach the same basic lies, but are broken up into bickering factions that they call “denominations”, so that confusion reigns as to who is actually teaching the truth….I was raised in one of those…..but Jesus has never set foot in any those churches. His response to the false Christians is…. “I never knew you”…..”NEVER” means “not ever. (Matt 7:21-23)

Which is precisely why you do not belong on a Christian forum. Sometime IF you crack that bible open please read the context of Matthew 7:21-23 I am tired of asking you to do that too.
Jesus is speaking about FALSE PROPHETS. Hello Jws?

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

 

[Aunty Jane]

All the apostles and disciples believed that Christ would return visibly to the earth and establish the Kingdom of Israel from Jerusalem, as stated in Acts 1:6 and other passages. Scripture confirms this hope: “The Deliverer will come from Zion” (Romans 11), echoing Isaiah 59: “And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the Lord. — Isaiah 59:20

Given this, where does the idea of Christ reigning from heaven originate?

Yes, it was it until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that they realized what Jesus had been trying to teach them. All Jews believed that the kingdom was earthly, to be set up in literal Jerusalem, and that their Messiah would be a human…not a god/man.

Jesus told his apostles that he was going to “prepare a place for them in his Father’s house” but that where he was going, they could not yet come. Their limited understanding at the time was revealed when Jesus was ascending to heaven and they asked him a question…..

Acts 1:6-11….ESV…
“So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Here the apostles demonstrated a mistaken belief that the kingdom was about earthly Jerusalem…..but only the power of God’s spirit would clarify and reveal what that belief would mean for the world, not just for one specific geographical location and one nation.

Jesus would teach his disciples many things that the Jewish faith did not yet see as “types and shadows” of things to come.…the Temple, the priesthood, the role of the High Priest and the sacrifices they were told to offer….all had a deeper meaning. Paul was used to reveal many such things.

God’s kingdom would rule over earthly subjects, but from a heavenly vantage point. “New Jerusalem” was in heaven….and the Father’s house was the spiritual Temple in “heavenly Jerusalem”.

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”. (Heb 12:22-23 ESV)

Who are “the assembly of the firstborn”…”who are enrolled in heaven”. “The spirits of the righteous made perfect” are the elect who have been transformed into spirit creatures in order to dwell in the presence of God….something mere mortals cannot do.

If Angels behold the face of God….where is God? He is not on earth. “Our Father who art in heaven” gives the Father a location.

 

[PS95]

I have addressed all those verses so many times, but your ‘programming’ is worse than you think mine is.

None of them say what you think they do, as a thorough study of the Bible will reveal. Jesus never once said he was God with a capital “g”. Original language word studies will completely undo what you think those translations are saying.

I will give you just one short statement from the apostles as to whom they believed their God was…..
1 Cor 8:5-6…
”For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.“ (ESV)

Were the apostles in any doubt about who was their “one God”? All were Jewish, so to suggest that Jesus was anything other than what he said about himself would have been blasphemy….and the Jews would have had a provable case.

Read John 10:31-36 and see that calling someone a “god” (theos) was not calling them Yahweh.
Calling them “Lord” is a title of respect. God himself called human judges in Israel “gods” because they represented him. Jesus said he was “the son of God”.….because that is what he was.

Yes Jane there are so-called gods which means there are no a gods.. I know you have many but they are all false gods.
Jesus is not a so-called god.
Paul is saying there is one God and one Lord. If you think that means that only the Father is God then you must also be fair and say that the Father is not Lord. There is only one Lord..
or do you now have 2 Lords and one God and one a god?
Paul is merely saying how they used the designations to differentiate when speaking. Maybe you had to be there.. Christians also do this very thing quite often.

Yet we see that Jesus called His Father, Lord

25At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26“Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Do what Jesus asked. Just go to Jesus. He is enough.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are a few who are not “following the discussion”….

There is no contradiction. Once more….
How are the elect like the angels? They become spirit beings who are taken to an entirely different realm to take up the role of “kings and priests” in the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 20:6) Angels are spirits who have no external means of life support, which means that their lives are selfsustaining in ways we mere mortals cannot yet comprehend. But their Creator has the means to take their lives if they fail to obey him. All of God’s children have free will and can have their lives terminated if they break the laws of their Creator.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Is this passage in your Bible? This says those who are worthy to obtain the age to come will be liked the angels because "they can no longer die".

An immortal cannot die, which is why God withholds it from his servants until they have proven themselves faithful even in the face of death.

Nowhere does scripture teach that someone can't be saved "until they have proven themselves faithful even in the face of death.". That is total nonsense. Do you think that God doesn't know what kind of faith people have? No one has to do anything to prove it. What did the thief on the cross do to prove his faith? Nothing. But, he is still in paradise. Yes, our works will reflect our faith, but nowhere does it say that we are not saved unless we prove ourselves faithful even in the face of death. God knows if we have that kind of faith or not. Jesus knew the thief on the cross had that kind of faith.

Let me demonstrate how people twist what we believe….

If Paul stated that at death we are “acquitted (“dikaioō”) from sin”, having paid sin’s wages, we have therefore served the stated sentence, and like all prisoners who have done so, are released with a clean slate from that day forward. You don’t go on punishing people who have served their time.

Goodness gracious. No one is twisting what you believe. You are saying exactly the same thing what I showed from the JW website. How is anyone twisting that? But, you are badly misinterpreting Romans 6:7. Only the blood of Christ can pay sin's wages! To say otherwise is blasphemous! You have no idea who Jesus is because you blaspheme Him constantly with your false doctrine!

Let's look at Romans 6:7 in context.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Look at verse 2. It says in relation to Christians "we are those who have died to sin". Instead of being slaves to sin like we are before being saved, we becomes slaves to Jesus and righteousness instead. So, what Paul was talking about in verse 7 here is related to verse 2 which talks about spiritually dying to sin and no longer being slaves to sin because of having "a new life" (verse 4) in Christ spiritually. So, verse 7 is not even talking about physical death, but rather refers to our old self before we are saved being spiritually "crucified with him" so that we are no longer ruled by sin and are set free from sin.

Have you not had a life changing experience with God where His Spirit has renewed your spirit and giving you a completely different perspective on life and towards sin? If not, then it's no wonder that you would not understand what Paul was talking about in Romans 6:7.

God does not sentence sinners to ECT because that is not the purpose of the resurrection. There are no “immortal souls” in the Bible….it is NOT a Bible teaching, so there is nowhere for “souls” to be tormented or to suffer in any way after death. Death is the penalty for any sin committed under the law, deserving of such a sentence. God’s law never required torture for any crime.

It is the blood of Christ that frees sinners from death…

Look how deceptive you are. You first say death itself frees people from sin because that's how you interpret Romans 6:7, but here you say that the blood of Christ frees sinners from death. No, the blood of Christ frees people from sin and from the second death. The wages of sin is the second death (eternal death) because it is contrasted with the gift of God which is eternal life (Romans 6:23).

..it is not according to anything we have earned….Jesus came to rescue us from the death sentence we inherited from Adam. Those in their graves will be raised out of them by Jesus…..as he says….
John 5:28-29…
”Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.“ (ESV)
This is the majority of mankind who are still held captive in those graves.

Notice that the destiny of all people is determined before their resurrection. They will either be resurrected to eternal life or eternal judgment. Your doctrine contradicts that.

In case you try to say that Jesus was not talking about eternal life and eternal judgment there, read this verse which talks about the same thing:

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The whole purpose of the resurrection, (as opposed to immortality of the soul), is to bring the dead back to life. Where are they? They are still in their graves (tombs). They haven’t gone anywhere, because a soul is not a disembodied spirit…..a “soul” is a living, breathing creature who has lost its ability to sustain its own life. Animals too are “souls” who die the same death that we do. (Eccl 3:19-20) The only superiority we have over them is the resurrection.

Soul sleep is a false doctrine. Tell me, is God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob right now?

There are two resurrections indicated by Jesus speaking about “the first resurrection” of God’s elect (Rev 20:6) so another was to follow as he said in John 5, which is the general resurrection back to life on this earth where God put us humans in the first place.

When you study theology instead of the Bible, you are led down a path of lies invented by the sower of the “weeds” that Jesus warned us about. These weeds were not sown recently…..but were beginning to sprout even at the end of the first century….and the rest is a sad and sorry history of “the church”.

Your false theology is of the devil and the weeds/tares are "children of the devil" (Matthew 13:38). So, I don't need you to tell me how to interpret the parable of the wheat and the weeds (tares).

You want a definition of “Christendom”?

Yes, that's what I obviously asked for.

….they are the “weeds” sown by the devil.

And there it is. You think that all of us here who are not Jehovah's Witnesses are children of the devil which is what the weeds represent (Matthew 13:38-39). You say that while being unaware that your theology is of the devil and full of doctrines of demons.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, it was it until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that they realized what Jesus had been trying to teach them. All Jews believed that the kingdom was earthly, to be set up in literal Jerusalem, and that their Messiah would be a human…not a god/man.

Jesus told his apostles that he was going to “prepare a place for them in his Father’s house” but that where he was going, they could not yet come. Their limited understanding at the time was revealed when Jesus was ascending to heaven and they asked him a question…..

Acts 1:6-11….ESV…
“So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Here the apostles demonstrated a mistaken belief that the kingdom was about earthly Jerusalem…..but only the power of God’s spirit would clarify and reveal what that belief would mean for the world, not just for one specific geographical location and one nation.

Jesus would teach his disciples many things that the Jewish faith did not yet see as “types and shadows” of things to come.…the Temple, the priesthood, the role of the High Priest and the sacrifices they were told to offer….all had a deeper meaning. Paul was used to reveal many such things.

God’s kingdom would rule over earthly subjects, but from a heavenly vantage point. “New Jerusalem” was in heaven….and the Father’s house was the spiritual Temple in “heavenly Jerusalem”.

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”. (Heb 12:22-23 ESV)

Who are “the assembly of the firstborn”…”who are enrolled in heaven”. “The spirits of the righteous made perfect” are the elect who have been transformed into spirit creatures in order to dwell in the presence of God….something mere mortals cannot do.

If Angels behold the face of God….where is God? He is not on earth. “Our Father who art in heaven” gives the Father a location.

No — the apostles were right. It seems you’re holding to a narrative that lacks clear scriptural support.

Revelation 21 is unmistakably clear: The city is “Coming down from God out of heaven”.. this is the same city Abraham looked for, whose builder and maker is God. You might recall Abraham was not asked to search the Heavens for this city, but walked the length and breadth of Israel looking without success!

Also, its "New Jerusalem," representing the immortalized community of the redeemed, is described as coming down out of heaven. Every citizen of that city on earth must first be born from above!

I perceive you understand the origin of the City, but lack knowledge of its destination.

I'm still waiting for you to show this "different nature between the Elect and the Angels"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey Spiritual, do you think there could be another way of interpreting this verse? Or only one way?

I think there is only one right way to interpret it and I believe I'm interpreting it that way. Why do you ask?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think there is only one right way to interpret it and I believe I'm interpreting it that way. Why do you ask?

I agree that there is a right understanding the Lord is conveying, but I’m not convinced your interpretation is the correct one. If the starting point is flawed or bias, then the conclusion will inevitably be flawed as well.

For example, consider this question: “In what way could Jesus say this without literally having preexisted Abraham?”

It’s a worthwhile question to explore and answering it requires deeper faith and understanding, rather than simply imposing a preferred interpretation onto the text.

How does John 8:56 shine a light on what the Lord was teaching?

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are many more than just those and you are required to twist all of them to fit your false doctrine. You can't take any of them straightforwardly. You have to twist and contort them to fit your false religion.

They were twisted long before you and I were born on this earth…..the foretold apostasy did not happen recently. It began at the end of the first century when the last apostle John passed away. If you know anything about the history of the church from the early centuries onward, you would understand why Jesus tells the false Christians “I never knew you”…..he has never recognized that disgusting “church” as his own.
Nor will he recognize her wayward daughters who all took their mothers’s dirty laundry with them.

They all say what I know they do.

You‘ll find out in due course exactly what they mean, and have always meant. There is only one truth….but nothing I say will breach your programming. That’s OK. These are your choices to make.

You know nothing about what the Bible teaches.

After 50 years of deep Bible study, I know enough to be confident about what is truth…and what masquerades as the real thing. Never underestimate the deceiver...he is an expert at what he does.

No, they will not. You obviously think that all of the English translators were idiots.

No, not stupid….just trinitarians. If you do some original language word studies you will see how twisted their translations really are….so far from what Jesus taught…it was foretold…but you knew that, right?

You are failing to differentiate between the deity of Christ and the humanity of Christ.

There is no statement in all of Scripture where Jesus tells us that he is a deity. Regardless of what the church believes, all he ever said was that he was “the son of God”.
Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish Scripture. He knew the Shema….(Deut 6:4)

Was Thomas mistaken when He called Jesus "My Lord and my God!"

Was Thomas in disagreement with all the other apostles, who collectively declared that “the Father was their “one God”? (1 Cor 8:5-6)
Look up the word “theos” in a good Concordance….it doesn’t just mean “God” with a capital “g”.

Why would the disciples worship Jesus if they didn't think He was God? Do you think God would accept anyone but Him to be worshiped?

Again look up the word “pro·sky·neʹo” in the concordance and see what it means and what it doesn’t mean.
No one ”worshipped” Jesus because he wasn’t deity…he was the divine son of God, but nowhere does the Bible say that he was God incarnate. “Theology” tells you what you think “Christianity” is…but it is the exact opposite. “Obeisance” is not worship….and that is what Jesus received and accepted.

It's sad that you can't agree with what Paul said in the following passage:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

It is equally sad that you have no idea that this verse is not saying what is translated into English.
Phrasing is the enemy here….Greek phraseology is very different from English…and if you have ever tried to learn a language like French, you will see that phrasing is also very different to English.

In Greek that verse more correctly reads….”of our great God and of the Savior of us, Jesus Christ”.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. Absolutely none. You are cherry picking scripture to suit your doctrine. Repent of your denial of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ before it's too late! Now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).

I could well say the same about you…..but we are all free willed and can choose whatever our hearts declare is the truth for us…..but John 6:65 is correct.….it is God who invites his worshippers into his Kingdom, either as rulers or subjects. No one get through the gates without an invitation.
The trouble is that the heart is a “treacherous” thing and can often lead us in a very wrong direction. (Jer 17:9-10)

If we are confident that we have the truth, then we have chosen our own destiny…..we will live or die by what we accept as truth…..and Jesus clearly stated that those on the road to life are “few”…the majority whom he rejects are on the wrong road, blissfully unaware of their destination. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)
If yours is the majority view, then I’ll leave you to do the math.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree that there is a right understanding the Lord is conveying, but I’m not convinced your interpretation is the correct one. If the starting point is flawed or bias, then the conclusion will inevitably be flawed as well.

For example, consider this question: “In what way could Jesus say this without literally having preexisted Abraham?”

It’s a worthwhile question to explore and answering it requires deeper faith and understanding, rather than simply imposing a preferred interpretation onto the text.

How does John 8:56 shine a light on what the Lord was teaching?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

I'm not imposing anything onto the text. You ask how John 8:56 shines a light on what the Lord is teaching. How about considering how John 8:59 shines a light on it as well?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

What is it exactly about verse 56 that you think shines light on verse 58? I'm not seeing anything there that would tell us what verse 58 means. But, verse 59 gives us a strong indication of what He was saying there. Why do you suppose they wanted to kill Him after He said "Before Abraham was, I am"? It should be clear. They believed He was committing blasphemy by claiming to be God. I believe they immediately thought of Exodus 3:14 when He said that. That's why He said it the way He did. He could have just said "I was before Abraham was", but instead

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They were twisted long before you and I were born on this earth…..the foretold apostasy did not happen recently. It began at the end of the first century when the last apostle John passed away. If you know anything about the history of the church from the early centuries onward, you would understand why Jesus tells the false Christians “I never knew you”…..he has never recognized that disgusting “church” as his own.
Nor will he recognize her wayward daughters who all took their mothers’s dirty laundry with them.

You‘ll find out in due course exactly what they mean, and have always meant. There is only one truth….ut nothing I say will breach your programming. That’s OK. These are your choices to make.

After 50 years of deep Bible study, I know enough to be confident about what is truth…and what masquerades as the real thing. Never underestimate the deceiver...he is an expert at what he does.

No, not stupid….just trinitarians. If you do some original language word studies you will see how twisted their translations really are….so far from what Jesus taught…it was foretold…but you knew that, right?

There is no statement in all of Scripture where Jesus tells us that he is a deity. Regardless of what the church believes, all he ever said was that he was “the son of God”.
Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish Scripture. He knew the Shema….(Deut 6:4)

Was Thomas in disagreement with all the other apostles, who collectively declared that “the Father was their “one God”? (1 Cor 8:5-6)
Look up the word “theos” in a good Concordance….it doesn’t just mean “God” with a capital “g”.

Again look up the word “pro·sky·neʹo” in the concordance and see what it means and what it doesn’t mean.
No one ”worshipped” Jesus because he wasn’t deity…he was the divine son of God, but nowhere does the Bible say that he was God incarnate. “Theology” tells you what you think “Christianity” is…but it is the exact opposite. “Obeisance” is not worship….and that is what Jesus received and accepted.

It is equally sad that you have no idea that this verse is not saying what is translated into English.
Phrasing is the enemy here….Greek phraseology is very different from English…and if you have ever tried to learn a language like French, you will see that phrasing is also very different to English.

In Greek that verse more correctly reads….”of our great God and of the Savior of us, Jesus Christ”.

I could well say the same about you…..but we are all free willed and can choose whatever our hearts declare is the truth for us…..but John 6:65 is correct.….it is God who invites his worshippers into his Kingdom, either as rulers or subjects. No one get through the gates without an invitation.
The trouble is that the heart is a “treacherous” thing and can often lead us in a very wrong direction. (Jer 17:9-10)

If we are confident that we have the truth then we have chosen our own destiny…..we will live or die by what we accept as truth…..and Jesus clearly stated that those on the road to life are “few”…the majority whom he rejects are on the wrong road, blissfully unaware of their destination. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)
If yours is the majority view, then I’ll leave you to do the math.

It's pointless to try to discuss this any further with someone who thinks so many verses were mistranslated. How do you even decide that any of them are translated correctly? What a joke.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you believe Jesus is God?

I'm not imposing anything onto the text. You ask how John 8:56 shines a light on what the Lord is teaching. How about considering how John 8:59 shines a light on it as well?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

What is it exactly about verse 56 that you think shines light on verse 58? I'm not seeing anything there that would tell us what verse 58 means. But, verse 59 gives us a strong indication of what He was saying there. Why do you suppose they wanted to kill Him after He said "Before Abraham was, I am"? It should be clear. They believed He was committing blasphemy by claiming to be God. I believe they immediately thought of Exodus 3:14 when He said that. That's why He said it the way He did. He could have just said "I was before Abraham was", but instead

Explain to me how "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Explain to me how "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"

Do you only ever look at one translation? Here is one that better shows the meaning of the verse...

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

It simply means that Abraham was looking forward to the day when Jesus would come and He foresaw it in the sense that He knew it would come and He was excited about it because of what He knew that day would bring (salvation). He obviously didn't literally see it since He died before Christ came.

Since you didn't answer my question of whether or not you think Jesus is God, I will take that as a no.

Can you tell me why you think they wanted to kill Jesus after He said "Before Abraham was, I am"? Why do you think they were so angry with Him for saying that?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

...though there was an exception

Oh?