Do you believe the lie?

[marks]

That' bold part is an example of what I mean by to me it smacks of attempting to make what is being plainly said comply with what you think it "should be" saying or maybe want it to say. No one abiding in the vine is a branch. We are all being compared to branches, and Christ to a vine.

John 15:6 KJV
6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The man who does not abide in Jesus is compared to a branch. It's right there.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

The better things are regeneration, baptism in the Holy Spirit, becoming part of the body of Christ.

Much love!

I disagree. The better things are better things than those who fall away after having been abiding in the vine.

 

[marks]

I believe you but I also believe me when I place myself and yourself in the same category of human beings whose minds and intellect have an interfering effect on the teaching that the Holy Spirit is giving us.

Just because I believe you are wrong (which I truly do - I don't disagree for the sake of debate) doesn't mean either you or I are necessarily correct.

But I'm also a lover of the truth and I truly do not believe that the way you are dissecting the passage is accurate.

Ok, but I do appreciate if you can stick to the topic, and I'm not the topic. Just sayin'.

It's a way to disregard what I'm telling you. But I'm totally serious, if you look, you will see what I'm saying is correct. John's Greek is very simple, very plain. That's why they start first year Koine Greek students on translating John. It's beginner level.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

I'm just telling you about the language. Make my day, please! See if what I'm saying is true. What these words say. Isn't that the plain saying of Scripture? That's what I think. Find what it plainly says, and believe it.

Let me ask you. Do you believe this passage in what it specifically says? That all who are risen with Christ now will appear with Him in glory then?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If even just one person who was raised with Christ in this life does not appear with Him in glory, then this passage becomes false, and that cannot be.

So the question is, do you believe exactly what it says?

Much love!

That will happen for those who remain in the vine because He will not boot anyone out. Leaving the vine is the choice of the person who was abiding.

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall [ptaio]" ( 2 Peter 1:10).

G 04417 ptaio {ptah'-yo}
a form of 4098; to trip, i.e. (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation):--fall, offend, stumble."

 

[marks]

We should agree now to disagree because I'm too straight-forward and you've taken offense.

No, I've not taken offense, I want to keep the conversation on track. There is no fruitfulness, imo, to each of us sharing our opinions of each other base on our perceptions of this brief exchange. There is much fruitfulness to discussing the Scriptures.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Ok, but I do appreciate if you can stick to the topic, and I'm not the topic. Just sayin'.

It's a way to disregard what I'm telling you. But I'm totally serious, if you look, you will see what I'm saying is correct. John's Greek is very simple, very plain. That's why they start first year Koine Greek students on translating John. It's beginner level.

Much love!

I answered this but I must go now. No time left. We can pick up another day.

 

[Zao is life]

Ok, but I do appreciate if you can stick to the topic, and I'm not the topic. Just sayin'.

It's a way to disregard what I'm telling you. But I'm totally serious, if you look, you will see what I'm saying is correct. John's Greek is very simple, very plain. That's why they start first year Koine Greek students on translating John. It's beginner level.

Much love!

Most scholars and Greek experts wouldn't be able to comprehend every part of the Greek New Testament correctly even if their native tongue was koine Greek - and different manuscripts (LXX, Codex Sianiaticus) don't use the exact same words in every verse either.

And even if the native tongue of all of us were koine Greek we would still be disagreeing just as much. Because of the human intellect - it takes some of us to different places it takes others to, you know?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are the branches that abide in Christ, and branches that do not abide in Christ. Of the branches that do abide in Christ, there are the unfruitful branches and the fruitful branches. The unfruitful branch is carried away by the Father. The fruitful branch is pruned/cleansed to produce more fruit.

Carried away to where? According to verse 6, they are taken away and burned in the fire.

The man (not branch) that does not abide in Christ is like a branch that is cast out, to be gathered and burned.
@Zao is life

Your argument about this verse does not make any sense. All references to people who are in Christ in John 15 compare them to being like branches. He's never referring to literal branches there. The branches figuratively represent those who are in Christ, so in that way all of those who are in Christ are like branches whether they are fruitful or not.

Verse 2 shows that Jesus contrasted branches who are in Him and are fruitful with those branches who are in Him and are not fruitful. He does the exact same thing in verses 5 and 6.

 

[marks]

That will happen for those who remain in the vine because He will not boot anyone out. Leaving the vine is the choice of the person who was abiding.

I will simply point out that there are no additional qualifications in that passage other than we now be risen with Christ. The real question is how much weight we give to that fact. If we believe it exactly as written, all who are raised with Him now will appear with Him then. That's not interpretation, that's the plain saying of the Bible.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We see the same thing here. If we are now the sons of God, we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him. Is that true exactly as written?

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If we are citizens of heaven now, our bodies will be transformed then. Again, no other qualifications. If it doesn't happen to any who are currently citizens of heaven, this passage is not true. And that's not right, it is in fact true. I least, I believe it is.

Exactly as written.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Because I don't see anything in the English translations that contradicts the truth.

And you won’t, because all the mistranslations are designed to keep you hooked on a doctrine that Jesus himself never taught. The translators of the Bibles you accept were all trinitarians and so the translation bias is not obvious to you…..you see what you want to see, and believe what you want to believe, because of that bias in translation.….swallowed…hook, line and sinker.

Jesus said that if you build on a faulty foundation, no matter how impressive the outside appears to be, it will crumble when the storm hits….and the storm is coming.
It is the “many” who build on this faulty foundation according to Jesus…..and “few” will be found on the road to life…..why? (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

Why do you even quote from any English translation at all?

I use them because the truth is still contained in the Bibles that those in Christendom use….by using your own translations you cannot accuse me of referring to the NWT to back up my points. You overlook what you don’t want to see. You wouldn’t believe anything I quoted from the NWT, but you have to believe the translations that you all accept.

I like to compare different translation with a Concordance and an Interlinear……and I have to say that is very enlightening. Never have I been disappointed in the NWT’s rendering.

So, are you fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? Are you able to read the original manuscripts? If not, then I will assume that your beliefs only come from your imagination.

No, but I study the works of those who are fluent in the Bible’s languages….what about you?

My imagination has nothing to do with my conclusions….I simply take the whole Bible as one story, with one author, who tells us what happened in Eden, and how he sent his son to rectify everything so that his first purpose in creating humans to live on the earth forever, will be achieved. (Isa 55:11)

What was God’s first purpose in putting us humans here on this carefully prepared planet…..and why did he give his children free will when it has created so many problems for us? What was the reason why God chose some for life in heaven? Can you tell me?

many of them, like Aunty Jane, also quote from other English translations (for some reason) despite thinking they mistranslate many verses. But, look at this verse from the NWT, for example:

John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

It has Thomas calling Jesus his God. Why do they not accept Jesus as God when their own translation quotes Thomas as calling Jesus his God? Do they think Thomas was mistaken?

What did Thomas believe concerning his Lord Jesus? Was he out of harmony with the other apostles, of whom Paul spoke collectively when he identified “the Father” as their ”one God”? AND Jesus as their “one Lord”? (1 Cor 8:5-6)

If the word “theos” means…

“a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”……and can also mean….

1. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      
      1. of magistrates and judges” (Strongs)

What did Thomas’ expression really mean? He called Jesus “theos” but not “ho theos”……that one little word (“ho”) that is invariably missing from English translations of the Bible, most notably in John 1:1.
Only one “theos” in that verse is “ho theos” meaning Yahweh/Jehovah….the other is just “theos”.

Jesus is never referred to as “ho theos”.

So then what was Thomas actually saying”? Was he saying that Jesus was Yahweh? For a Jew that would be blasphemy! Jesus and his apostles, as well as his target audience, were all Jewish.

Even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4….is he Yahweh?
Paul referred to the “many gods” of this world as “theos”. (1 Cor 8:5-6)
The word doesn’t have the exclusive meaning that Christendom wants to give it.

The depth of study in Christendom’s “theology” never even scratches the surface when it comes to genuine study of the Scriptures as a whole…..they cherry pick their mistranslated verses to prop up a doctrine that Jesus and his apostles never taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The better things are regeneration, baptism in the Holy Spirit, becoming part of the body of Christ.

Yes, I agree. Is that not what Hebrews 6:4-5 describes? How can someone be "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" and not be regenerated, baptized by the Holy Spirit and become part of the body of Christ"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And you won’t, because all the mistranslations are designed to keep you hooked on a doctrine that Jesus himself never taught. The translators of the Bibles you accept were all trinitarians and so the translation bias is not obvious to you…..you see what you want to see, and believe what you want to believe, because of that bias in translation.….swallowed…hook, line and sinker.

Jesus said that if you build on a faulty foundation, no matter how impressive the outside appears to be, it will crumble when the storm hits….and the storm is coming.
It is the “many” who build on this faulty foundation according to Jesus…..and “few” will be found on the road to life…..why? (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

I use them because the truth is still contained in the Bibles that those in Christendom use….by using your own translations you cannot accuse me of referring to the NWT to back up my points. You overlook what you don’t want to see. You wouldn’t believe anything I quoted from the NWT, but you have to believe the translations that you all accept.

I like to compare different translation with a Concordance and an Interlinear……and I have to say that is very enlightening. Never have I been disappointed in the NWT’s rendering.

No, but I study the works of those who are fluent in the Bible’s languages….what about you?

My imagination has nothing to do with my conclusions….I simply take the whole Bible as one story, with one author, who tells us what happened in Eden, and how he sent his son to rectify everything so that his first purpose in creating humans to live on the earth forever, will be achieved. (Isa 55:11)

What was God’s first purpose in putting us humans here on this carefully prepared planet…..and why did he give his children free will when it has created so many problems for us? What was the reason why God chose some for life in heaven? Can you tell me?

What did Thomas believe concerning his Lord Jesus? Was he out of harmony with the other apostles, of whom Paul spoke collectively when he identified “the Father” as their ”one God”? AND Jesus as their “one Lord”? (1 Cor 8:5-6)

If the word “theos” means…

“a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”……and can also mean….

1. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      
      1. of magistrates and judges” (Strongs)

What did Thomas’ expression really mean? He called Jesus “theos” but not “ho theos”……that one little word (“ho”) that is invariably missing from English translations of the Bible, most notably in John 1:1.
Only one “theos” in that verse is “ho theos” meaning Yahweh/Jehovah….the other is just “theos”.

Jesus is never referred to as “ho theos”.

So then what was Thomas actually saying”? Was he saying that Jesus was Yahweh? For a Jew that would be blasphemy! Jesus and his apostles, as well as his target audience, were all Jewish.

Even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4….is he Yahweh?
Paul referred to the “many gods” of this world as “theos”. (1 Cor 8:5-6)
The word doesn’t have the exclusive meaning that Christendom wants to give it.

The depth of study in Christendom’s “theology” never even scratches the surface when it comes to genuine study of the Scriptures as a whole…..they cherry pick their mistranslated verses to prop up a doctrine that Jesus and his apostles never taught.

Clearly, nothing I say can convince you to change your mind. And, clearly, nothing our English Bible translations say can change your mind. Clearly, you just believe whatever you make up in your mind.

You have nothing tangible to base your beliefs on. You cannot say they are based on what is written in our English translations because you say they are mistranslated in many verses, thereby making them completely untrustworthy. To cherry pick which ones you accept while not accepting many others is nothing less than a complete joke.

So, what are you beliefs based on then? Are you fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? Are you able to read the original manuscripts? If not, then your beliefs apparently just come from your own imagination. What other source are they coming from in that case?

 

[marks]

Most scholars and Greek experts wouldn't be able to comprehend every part of the Greek New Testament correctly even if their native tongue was koine Greek - and different manuscripts (LXX, Codex Sianiaticus) don't use the exact same words in every verse either.

And even if the native tongue of all of us were koine Greek we would still be disagreeing just as much. Because of the human intellect - it takes some of us to different places it takes others to, you know?

I believe the Spirit within us makes us one, and that we are in this process:

Ephesians 4:12-16 KJV
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Carried away to where? According to verse 6, they are taken away and burned in the fire.

John 15:1-2 KJV
1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6 KJV
6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The Father carries the unfruitful branch away. The man not abiding is cast out like a branch that men gather up and burn. These are not the same.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, but I study the works of those who are fluent in the Bible’s languages….what about you?

Hahaha! This is too funny. Guess what? They don't all agree with each other. Also, the translators of the English translations were/are fluent in the Bible's languages and you disagree with how they translated many verses. So, what is the point of this question? No matter what anyone says, we should be like the Bereans and study the scriptures for ourselves to see if what people say about the scriptures is true (Acts 17:10-11). That requires more than just studying the works of others, but requires submitting to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to help us understand what we're reading. Human wisdom alone is not going to lead us to the truth because it is fallible. Scripture says to not lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6). We need the Holy Spirit's guidance (1 Corinthians 2:9-16).

 

[marks]

Your argument about this verse does not make any sense. All references to people who are in Christ in John 15 compare them to being like branches. He's never referring to literal branches there. The branches figuratively represent those who are in Christ, so in that way all of those who are in Christ are like branches whether they are fruitful or not.

Just follow along the way He speaks.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Clearly, nothing I say can convince you to change your mind. And, clearly, nothing our English Bible translations say can change your mind. Clearly, you just believe whatever you make up in your mind.

You have nothing tangible to base your beliefs on. You cannot say they are based on what is written in our English translations because you say they are mistranslated in many verses, thereby making them completely untrustworthy. To cherry pick which ones you accept while not accepting many others is nothing less than a complete joke.

So, what are you beliefs based on then? Are you fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? Are you able to read the original manuscripts? If not, then your beliefs apparently just come from your own imagination. What other source are they coming from in that case?

Is this all you have in response? You didn’t address a single thing…but that is not unexpected….when you have no answers you deflect with attacks….attacks are not defense.

Just answer the questions I put to you…..or are they too difficult?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 15:1-2 KJV
1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6 KJV
6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The Father carries the unfruitful branch away. The man not abiding is cast out like a branch that men gather up and burn. These are not the same.

Yes, they absolutely are. Jesus makes the same contrast in verses 5 and 6 relating to branches that are in Him and are fruitful and remain in Him and branches that are in Him but are not fruitful and do not remain in Him that He made in verse 2. You can't convince me otherwise, so it's probably time to just agree to disagree. I don't have anything to add to what I've already said about this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just follow along the way He speaks.

Much love!

I did. And I still disagree with you about what He said. So be it. Time to move on now....

 

[marks]

I don't have anything to add to what I've already said about this.

Ditto.

All good!

Much love!