Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

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rvmb

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Paul the Apostle, defined "universalism" as a = cursed gospel, and those who teach it = the NT states are under a "curse".

This is because its a utterly false gospel, defined as a "doctrine of devils" in Heb 13:9 (KJV).... that literally denies that you have to be born again and forgiven your sin, before you die, and you can still go to heaven after you die still "in your sins".
So, What is that? ??
That is A blasphemy of the Holy Spirit presented as a false "GOSPEL".. that is teaching that commiting the unpardonable sin is nothing to worry about...and that is a serious serious situation for both the carnal liars who teach it.... and for the deceived "itching ears" who believe them.

Listen,
Any = real Christian .... truly understands that the reason you are accepted by God is BECAUSE you are forgiven and redeemed and born again before you die because you have given God your FAITH in Christ ......yet the Satanic Teaching that is "universalism" DENIES that this is required by God.

Here is an update for those who are confused by the confusion that is "OSAS".
Its not "eternal security" that teaches that you can live like the Devil and still go to heaven......its actually the false gospel of Universalism that teaches it, as this incredible lie from HELL teaches that you dont have to become a Christian (by Faith in Christ) before you die... but instead you are already become one just because you are alive and still unforgiven and not yet born again.

So, "universalism" is defined by Paul as a "cursed" gospel, and ALL those who teach it under a curse... according to Paul in : Galatians 1:8
Paul even states that those who decieve others with these false gospels, should be "cut off".
That means to suddenly "stop breathing".....in case you are confused about his meaning.
The "original greek" defines it as "to drop dead".
So, this false gospel is nothing to play with, yet you have religious pretenders found on Forums like this one, who do play with it, and they dont realize what is coming their way., nor do they care.


Avoid deceived deceivers who treach the cursed gospel of Universalism...and try to prove it as you are probably dealing with a fake "christian",..... and at best you are dealing with a utterly deceived religious hypocrite.

-selah

LOL
He did no such thing. Liar.
Gal 1:6-9
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

soberxp

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I don't think that's right?

By my reckoning, the Book of Enoch postulates 4 intermediate resting places. One for the martyrs. One for the righteous dead. One for the evil dead. And one for the lukewarm.

I don't find universalism in Enoch

Source: 1Enoch Chapter 22
That was a Chinese translation I read a long time ago. It contained certain content, but I'm not sure if it's included in the English version's translation.
So, I'm not sure, but I do remember there being that sentence.

Perhaps there was a mistake in the translation of the sentence you quoted. Or perhaps that exact sentence does exist. I'm not sure anymore. I can't find the original version I was referring to either now, so I can't make a determination. Because I haven't read the English version at all.
 
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The Learner

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That was a Chinese translation I read a long time ago. It contained certain content, but I'm not sure if it's included in the English version's translation.
So, I'm not sure, but I do remember there being that sentence.

Perhaps there was a mistake in the translation of the sentence you quoted. Or perhaps that exact sentence does exist. I'm not sure anymore. I can't find the original version I was referring to either now, so I can't make a determination. Because I haven't read the English version at all.
 

RepentingChristian

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Gal 1:6-9
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


People misunderstand scriptures. Take the following. Some believe that Jesus will be successful at uniting all things to himself, aka "universalism". However, those of us with discernment know that Jesus fails in spectacular fashion and that Jesus ends up torturing countless souls FOREVER! Anyone who says otherwise is a messenger of Satan.

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
 
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St. SteVen

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People misunderstand scriptures. Take the following. Some believe that Jesus will be successful at uniting all things to himself, aka "universalism". However, those of us with discernment know that Jesus fails in spectacular fashion and that Jesus ends up torturing countless souls FOREVER! Anyone who says otherwise is a messenger of Satan.

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
What a ridiculous post.
The scripture you quoted refutes your comments. - LOL
 
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soberxp

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I'm about 50/50 on whether it was meant to be humour. Ridiculousness may have been intended
The most absurd reason is that, if there were no Satan, what do you think humans are? good or evil? Why do we have differences because of the existence of Satan? Can salvation be treated differently?
 
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BreadOfLife

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I know.

Origin's teachings didn't start with him. And they didn't start spreading at the end of the fourth century. They became so widely accepted they became a threat to the EASTERN ORTHODOX catholic church only.

Origin is credited with first systematically teaching and defending the doctrine of universal salvation (apokatastasis)in the 3rd century. But the doctrine was rooted in earlier 2nd-century Alexandrian thought, specifically through his teacher Clement of Alexandria, a church Father who ironically was later venerated by the EASTERN orthodox church. The church who went after ORIGIN. Church politics.....go figure.

But the only councils were not of the Latin speaking ROMAN church's doing. They were of the Greek speaking EASTERN orthodox
I've been recovering from major surgery for the last month, so it has taken me time to respond.

You keep speaking of the Early Church as if it were already split into 2 separate entities. It was NOT. The ONE Catholic Church existed before the East-West split in the 11th century. That's not to say that there wasn't some strife prior to this timeline. The schism came about largely over the issue of leadershipNOT doctrine. The ecumenical Councils included both Eastern and Western Fathers.
 
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Hillsage

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I've been recovering from major surgery for the last month, so it has taken me time to respond.
Sorry to hear of your physical battle. We are approaching Mayo's shortly and I have appointments scheduled starting tomorrow.
You keep speaking of the Early Church as if it were already split into 2 separate entities.
I'm not sure where you're getting that. I do not believe that. The Russian orthodox was the first split from the Latin church of Rome and the Greek church of Constantinople AKA the catholic church (lower case c). But it was a 'small' rejection against the 'one catholic church'. One which the Eastern and Western declared as being because of false doctrine from the Russians. So basically 'the catholics' considered the Russian loss as a 'good riddance' from 'them' who considered themselves as the true church.
It was NOT. The ONE Catholic Church existed before the East-West split in the 11th century. That's not to say that there wasn't some strife prior to this timeline. The schism came about largely over the issue of leadershipNOT doctrine. The ecumenical Councils included both Eastern and Western Fathers.
Not my understanding totally. The schism was beginning with the ROME church going TO LEAVENED BREAD during communion. That transition started in 900 AD and was finished in 11,00 AD. The church had never celebrated communion with unleavened bread. They used the same bread JESUS used in the Last Supper. And it was your icon here, it was the bread of LIFE used, and not the bread of death....which did not have the air of life in it. Just check the Greek word for "bread" and it is ARTOS; defined as being "a RAISED loaf." The Eastern orthodox has used LEAVENED bread for 2,000 years.

But I agree with you that the POPE issue was the last straw, that finally broke the back of the one church into the GREAT SCHISM. :Broadly:
 
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Hillsage

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@BreadOfLife
You were right, it has been a while since I last heard from you. It's also been so long I forgot that I am an "IDIOT" in your opinion, concerning Universalism. lfh

So I might just add this, since I do still believe in no eternal hell; Just like the EASTERN ORTHODOX church has believed for 2,000 years. :shine: They saw the light...they saw the light!!! And they believed clear back when Augustine was still admitting the WESTERN church of ROME was still debating about the doctrine. :pfite:

A Reddit quote from a discussion of two orthodox believers I just Googled; "I have no qualms about saying that eternal hell is not the dogmatic opinion of the Orthodox Church, because it verifiably is not. That is insofar as no ecumenical council has ever decreed it."

Last year about this time I was in the coffee shop when an ORTHODOX brother I know overheard me telling some one else how we had left the church we'd been in for 35 years. He asked why, and then pretty much said the same thing I just googled. Then he tried hard to get me/us to come to his church on Easter Sunday (which is celebrated a week after the Western indoctrinated churches in America). I was tempted to go just for the experience. But then he really hooked me when he mentioned they would have communion, but it would be with LEAVENED bread. He said that to prepare me to not be shocked or refuse or even walk out....like some idiot. ARE YOU KIDDING????? I told him right then; "I will be there!!" It was a boring service for me, and I have no plans to ever return. But he is still my brother and I am his. We'd met decades ago, when he too, went to our same '35 year' church.

Just curious.....as to me being an "IDIOT"....do you have any name in reserve for someone lower than me? hlfclfhtsml
 
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BreadOfLife

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Sorry to hear of your physical battle. We are approaching Mayo's shortly and I have appointments scheduled starting tomorrow.
Thanks - but it ws actually a happy occasion. I got a nuch-needed kidney transplant.
I'm not sure where you're getting that. I do not believe that. The Russian orthodox was the first split from the Latin church of Rome and the Greek church of Constantinople AKA the catholic church (lower case c). But it was a 'small' rejection against the 'one catholic church'. One which the Eastern and Western declared as being because of false doctrine from the Russians. So basically 'the catholics' considered the Russian loss as a 'good riddance' from 'them' who considered themselves as the true church.

Not my understanding totally. The schism was beginning with the ROME church going TO LEAVENED BREAD during communion. That transition started in 900 AD and was finished in 11,00 AD. The church had never celebrated communion with unleavened bread. They used the same bread JESUS used in the Last Supper. And it was your icon here, it was the bread of LIFE used, and not the bread of death....which did not have the air of life in it. Just check the Greek word for "bread" and it is ARTOS; defined as being "a RAISED loaf." The Eastern orthodox has used LEAVENED bread for 2,000 years.

But I agree with you that the POPE issue was the last straw, that finally broke the back of the one church into the GREAT SCHISM. :Broadly:
For your information - the bread that Jesus used at the Lat Supper was UNLEAVENED bread.

This is the bread that was used at the first Passover - and every subsequent Passover celebrations. I don't know where you get the idea that He used raised (leavened) bread . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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@BreadOfLife
You were right, it has been a while since I last heard from you. It's also been so long I forgot that I am an "IDIOT" in your opinion, concerning Universalism.

So I might just add this, since I do still believe in no eternal hell; Just like the EASTERN ORTHODOX church has believed for 2,000 years. They saw the light...they saw the light!!! And they believed clear back when Augustine was still admitting the WESTERN church of ROME was still debating about the doctrine.

A Reddit quote from a discussion of two orthodox believers I just Googled; "I have no qualms about saying that eternal hell is not the dogmatic opinion of the Orthodox Church, because it verifiably is not. That is insofar as no ecumenical council has ever decreed it."

Last year about this time I was in the coffee shop when an ORTHODOX brother I know overheard me telling some one else how we had left the church we'd been in for 35 years. He asked why, and then pretty much said the same thing I just googled. Then he tried hard to get me/us to come to his church on Easter Sunday (which is celebrated a week after the Western indoctrinated churches in America). I was tempted to go just for the experience. But then he really hooked me when he mentioned they would have communion, but it would be with LEAVENED bread. He said that to prepare me to not be shocked or refuse or even walk out....like some idiot. ARE YOU KIDDING????? I told him right then; "I will be there!!" It was a boring service for me, and I have no plans to ever return. But he is still my brother and I am his. We'd met decades ago, when he too, went to our same '35 year' church.

Just curious.....as to me being an "IDIOT"....do you have any name in reserve for someone lower than me?
Ummm, can you point me to the post where I called YOU and "Idiot"??
I have ZERO recollection of ever calling you an
"Idiot" . . .
 

Hillsage

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Thanks - but it ws actually a happy occasion. I got a nuch-needed kidney transplant.
Wow kidney transplant, that's a big one. I have a video you really need to watch. It's a totally medical based information. But It concerns what you should be looking out for in the soul realm with organ transplants from other people.

For your information - the bread that Jesus used at the Lat Supper was UNLEAVENED bread.

This is the bread that was used at the first Passover - and every subsequent Passover celebrations. I don't know where you get the idea that He used raised (leavened) bread . . .
Your biblical information source is absent, concerning the night of the last supper.

I told you the church history concerning communion and gave you the Greek word translated as bread on the night that Jesus was having His last supper with the 12. That's why the church celebrated with RAISED bread and real WINE for a thousand years. UNLIKE most of the church in America today. Does your church serve grape juice or WINE?

Do you have a Strong's concordance, or any Greek to English reference source? Look up the definition of bread used anywhere in any gospel concerning what bread was used at the last supper.
0740 artos: bread (as raised) or a loaf

Jesus was the bread of LIFE (ARTOS). He was not the bread of death (UNLEAVENED)

JOH 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread [0740] of life:

MAT 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread [0740], and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat;
this is my body.

The WHOLE CHRISTIAN CHURCH celebrated with ARTOS/BREAD for a thousand years. The APOSTATE church of ROME invented the doctrine of using the bread of the death angel. And that's what you are eating at every communion....as did I for decades.
 
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Hillsage

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Ummm, can you point me to the post where I called YOU and "Idiot"??
I have ZERO recollection of ever calling you an
"Idiot" . . .
My apologies BOL. You are right and I am sorry for my error. I was remembering wrongly and then, when I went back to find the post I also read it wrongly. It was Behold's quote you were addressing in post 319.
 

BreadOfLife

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Your biblical information source is absent, concerning the night of the last supper.

I told you the church history concerning communion and gave you the Greek word translated as bread on the night that Jesus was having His last supper with the 12. That's why the church celebrated with RAISED bread and real WINE for a thousand years. UNLIKE most of the church in America today. Does your church serve grape juice or WINE?

Do you have a Strong's concordance, or any Greek to English reference source? Look up the definition of bread used anywhere in any gospel concerning what bread was used at the last supper.
0740 artos: bread (as raised) or a loaf

Jesus was the bread of LIFE (ARTOS). He was not the bread of death (UNLEAVENED)

JOH 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread [0740] of life:

MAT 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread [0740], and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat;
this is my body.

The WHOLE CHRISTIAN CHURCH celebrated with ARTOS/BREAD for a thousand years. The APOSTATE church of ROME invented the doctrine of using the bread of the death angel. And that's what you are eating at every communion....as did I for decades.
I don't care WHAT the Greek word for “Bread” is. The command by God to Moses to use UNLEAVENED bread was written in Hebrew.

The Hebrew word used in the following verses is מצות.
Pronunciation: mats-tsaw'
Definition: 1) unleavened (bread, cake), without leaven.

Exod. 12:15
Seven days shall ye eat UNLEAVENED BREAD; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Exod. 12:19-20
Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat UNLEAVENED BREAD.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Chag HaMatzot) is a seven-day biblical spring festival immediately following Passover that commemorates the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Participants eat unleavened bread (matzah) and remove all leaven (yeast) from their homes, symbolizing haste, purity, and the removal of sin.

Luke 22:1

Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.


At the Last Supper, Jesus was celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Breadhence the use of
Unleavened Bread . . .

As to youor question about whether Catholics us wine or grape juice - I suggest you do your homework before debating an educated Catholic. We absolutely use wine - as we have done for over 2000 years . . .
 

Hillsage

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I don't care WHAT the Greek word for “Bread” is. The command by God to Moses to use UNLEAVENED bread was written in Hebrew.
And I don't care what the Hebrew word for "bread", was used in the OT. The command by Jesus to the apostles writing the gospels, was to use LEAVENED bread in the GREEK new testament.

And the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH did use leavened bread for a thousand years. You can't refute that on a bonafide Catholic website.

And I checked your "Catholic Faith Facts" website BLOG. Whoever that guy is, and if he has any credentials other than his sole opinion, is beyond finding out, as far as I could tell. But if I were in your shoes, I'd want a better source. Especially for many of those here, who really do take our studies seriously. :Broadly:

The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Chag HaMatzot) is a seven-day biblical spring festival immediately following Passover that commemorates the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Participants eat unleavened bread (matzah) and remove all leaven (yeast) from their homes, symbolizing haste, purity, and the removal of sin.

Luke 22:1

Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

At the Last Supper, Jesus was celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Breadhence the use of Unleavened Bread . .
According to scripture the apostles though JUDAS was going out to BUY what they needed to celebrate the DAY of PASSOVER which was 3 days after the night of the last supper.

JOH 13:27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.
29 For some were supposing, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus was saying to him, "Buy the things we have need of for THE FEAST";


Pretty simple and straightforward in my bible. But then I'm not claiming to know more than his own apostles what "feast" they were thinking about.

.

As to youor question about whether Catholics us wine or grape juice - I suggest you do your homework before debating an educated Catholic. We absolutely use wine - as we have done for over 2000 years . . .
Go back and read again what I said. I didn't even know what church you went to BOL, that's why I asked the question. I have done my research and I KNOW your church and the EASTERN ORTHODOX have both used wine for 2,000 years. So still do most denominations all over the world. It is the USA who dropped WINE from their menu at communion. And do yoou know WHEN? In the 1800s. And do you know why? Because of the TEMPERANCE movement against all alcoholic beverages. And do you know what they went to instead of WINE? They went to not even REAL grape juice. Do you know why? Because REAL grape juice is LIVING and will ferment, even with refrigeration. So Dr. WELCH, a dentist, who heard about a new process of KILLING germs by pasteurization (Lous Pasteur), He used that same process to KILL living fermentation. And Dr. WELCH also saw a money making opportunity to invent WELCH'S GRAPE DRINK. While grape juice is common in some American evangelical circles, its use is rare in Europe. That's the sum of my "homework" on wine BOL.

I hope this helps you come to a knowledge of the truth. :shine:

This needs to end, because we are totally off topic for the thread.
 

BreadOfLife

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And I don't care what the Hebrew word for "bread", was used in the OT. The command by Jesus to the apostles writing the gospels, was to use LEAVENED bread in the GREEK new testament.
WHERE did Jesus tell the Ap[stles to use "Leavened bread" for the Passover??
Chapter and Verse,
please . . .


Matt. 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread (Αρτοσ), and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat, this is my body.”


Strong's Concordance
Αρτοσ

Pronunciation: ar'-tos
Definition: 1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked 1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken 1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord 1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord's Table

NO mention of “yeast” or “leaven”.
Just flour and
water . . .
And the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH did use leavened bread for a thousand years. You can't refute that on a bonafide Catholic website.
I never said that we didn't. But I ALSO never saud that the Cathollic Church went into "apostasy" by changing over to unleavened bread as YOU stated in post #357.
And I checked your "Catholic Faith Facts" website BLOG. Whoever that guy is, and if he has any credentials other than his sole opinion, is beyond finding out, as far as I could tell. But if I were in your shoes, I'd want a better source. Especially for many of those here, who really do take our studies seriously.
IF you took your studies seriously - you wouldn't have made many of the foolish statements that you have in this conversation.
According to scripture the apostles though JUDAS was going out to BUY what they needed to celebrate the DAY of PASSOVER which was 3 days after the night of the last supper.

JOH 13:27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.
29 For some were supposing, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus was saying to him, "Buy the things we have need of for THE FEAST";


Pretty simple and straightforward in my bible. But then I'm not claiming to know more than his own apostles what "feast" they were thinking about.
NOWHERE does it say that they ate leavened bread at the Passover.
That ALL in your head . . .

Go back and read again what I said. I didn't even know what church you went to BOL, that's why I asked the question. I have done my research and I KNOW your church and the EASTERN ORTHODOX have both used wine for 2,000 years. So still do most denominations all over the world. It is the USA who dropped WINE from their menu at communion. And do yoou know WHEN? In the 1800s. And do you know why? Because of the TEMPERANCE movement against all alcoholic beverages. And do you know what they went to instead of WINE? They went to not even REAL grape juice. Do you know why? Because REAL grape juice is LIVING and will ferment, even with refrigeration. So Dr. WELCH, a dentist, who heard about a new process of KILLING germs by pasteurization (Lous Pasteur), He used that same process to KILL living fermentation. And Dr. WELCH also saw a money making opportunity to invent WELCH'S GRAPE DRINK. While grape juice is common in some American evangelical circles, its use is rare in Europe. That's the sum of my "homework" on wine BOL.

I hope this helps you come to a knowledge of the truth.
I know ALL about why grape juoice bagan beng used in many Protestant sects - and that grape juice begins to ferment the moment the grape is crushed. I wrote an entire article on the subject. However - ths has NOTHING to do with our conversation.
This needs to end, because we are totally off topic for the thread.
Ummm - in post #350, it way YOU who brought up the whole converstion of Communion and which bread to use . . .
 

Hillsage

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WHERE did Jesus tell the Ap[stles to use "Leavened bread" for the Passover??
Chapter and Verse,
please . . .
No where does it say that Jesus told them to use leavened OR unleavened. And you never addressed when the apostles who were eating the bread they were eating though Judas was going out to buy what was needed for the Passover Day 3 days later.
Do you believe the apostles wrote the NT gospels? Then why did they say ARTOS and not AZUMOS?

Matt. 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread (Αρτοσ), and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, “Take, eat, this is my body.”

Strong's Concordance
Αρτοσ

Pronunciation: ar'-tos
Definition: 1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked 1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken 1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord 1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord's Table
I don't know what Strong's concordance you're using, but it doesn't agree with any Strong's I've checked. Nor does it agree with the #2 selling Young's Concordance. Which also agrees with Strong's.

Young's Exhaustive Concordance (and the associated Strong’s Greek Lexicon, #740) defines the Greek word
artos (ἄρτος) as "bread (as raised) or a loaf". Derived from the Greek verb airo (meaning to take or raise), it represents bread made from flour mixed with water and baked, often appearing in contexts such as loaves, bread, or showbread. From

E-Sword X online bible. G740 (Strong)
ἄρτος
artos

ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.
Total KJV occurrences: 99

NO mention of “yeast” or “leaven”.
Just flour and
water . . .

I never said that we didn't. But I ALSO never saud that the Cathollic Church went into "apostasy" by changing over to unleavened bread as YOU stated in post #357.
Again you misread; I never said Rome was apostate because of how they did communion with raised bread from 800-1,200 years. It was then that they finally abolished it from the whole Latin church.

I know ALL about why grape juoice bagan beng used in many Protestant sects - and that grape juice begins to ferment the moment the grape is crushed. I wrote an entire article on the subject. However - ths has NOTHING to do with our conversation.
It does in that it is OFF TOPIC, and yes when I went back, that's when I discovered it was off topic because of me. And that's why I said we should end it then. And I still say it should end now with this post for the same reason. Keep your opinion and I'll keep mine.