What is the purpose of Grace?

[amigo de christo]

Yes...as in He will grant some to be hid in the Cleft of the Rock. The Rock that was cleft/split that we may find refuge/hide in His side, His flesh torn, the veil torn in twain. There is no salvation/rescue in any other way.

almost always epi ignores my posts .
NOW you go and read the one post he all of a sudden decided to answer
AND YOU SEE again what he wrote . I told you dear dear sister , THAT I KNOW what inclusvims teaches .
And epi was and is an admitted inclusivain . THEY beleive teh LIE sister . THE LIE
and that lie is gonna merge EVERY false religoin with the decieved of christendom .
And all of it be of anti christ and its peace plan .
You see epi aint the only incluisivian , pope francis was and scores of others are . and many
do not or may not even realize they are , BUT are being led right into it .
The key leaders of false religoins have been teaching it
the key leaders of Christenedom both RCC and prostestant ville have been teaching it .
OF course in slighly differing ways , but the same lie is being pumped unto them .
And what lie is that . You dont NEED to believe on JESUS THE CHRIST .
No wonder the false religoins bought it cause they DONT
but as far as christendom , WHO ACTUALLY LED IN IT , WOE UNTO THEM and DOUBLE WOE .
b ecause they used the name oF JESUS to DENY HIS OWN GOSPEL .
And bad as it will be for the false religoins
I shudder even more so to think HOW its gonna be for those who USED teh name of JESUS to DENY HIM .
Either way its gonna be bad . FOR TO DENY JESUS , AND DENIED ONE WILL BE .

 

[Lizbeth]

You are fully exposed and yet you cover yourself in a blanket of darkness thinking that certain words can cover you up.

But the reason why you jumped on the "kingdom is within you" and fully ignored to "seek first the kingdom" is because you HATE the whole idea of having to seek God. You hate it so much....you claim to already be rich and in need of nothing. That Christ is already found in you, and all grace and the kingdom to boot. It's all already in you....or so you think in your religious hubris. I have tried getting the most basic things across to you...but you resist the truth as if it was the plague.

And you won't seek the Lord. You are self-satisfied. Every excuse you give to avoid the real God.

We are counseled to go to the throne of grace. Where is that throne of grace found? Is it somewhere in you that you just need to consult yourself?

You ought to know what I "claim" about myself from our earliest conversation at the very least, but you are unable to resolve what you see as a contradiction....you are blind to it. We certainly are to seek to APPREHEND (get hold of) that which HAS ALREADY BEEN LAID UP IN HEAVEN (spiritual realm) for us. Let the Lord so shine His light and show us what we yet lack and where we still fall short. And it takes trust/faith in His love and mercy to do that. Let us press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If I jumped on that, it's only because it is true and you always deny/reject/refuse/negate that side of the coin, ie, you are rejecting and denying THE GOSPEL.

 

[ProDeo]

Who's the we??

This is what I said -

1. A&E had a choice, we don't.

2. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment.

You never wondered why you did not have the same chance as A&E ?

I am sure the Lord had a very good reason you to be born in this fallen world.

So why ?

Unbelievers? What you should say is that YOU never had a choice...because you were never in God's presence.

Anyone who is translated to abide in Christ...to be where He is in the kingdom realm....remains in His presence until he is tempted away from putting God first. It is sin that separates us...and at that level...the soul that sins it shall die...or be separated from the intimacy of God which is in holiness.

But only the called out ones would know this. Only they have choice in the matter. All others only have the choice to humble themselves and obey the words of Jesus.

 

[Lizbeth]

I am not going to belabor the point because I agree Christ indwells the heart of those that have faith in him. I just don't think he was saying to the Pharisees that they had the kingdom within them. We know from various other discourses what Jesus said was actually in them.

That's fine. Just will leave you with this little thought.....the unbelieving Pharisees no more had the kingdom of God in their midst/among them than they had the King of it in them individually, since they were rejecting Jesus, the King of the kingdom. In another way I believe He was alluding to Himself being in their midst....if only they would receive Him. Because when you receive the King, His rulership, you have received/entered His kingdom by becoming part of it.

 

[shepherdsword]

That's fine. Just will leave you with this little thought

in other words, "I have to get the last word in because that's how I measure victory"

.....the unbelieving Pharisees no more had the kingdom of God in their midst/among them than they had the King of it in them individually, since they were rejecting Jesus, the King of the kingdom. In another way I believe He was alluding to Himself being in their midst....if only they would receive Him. Because when you receive the King, His rulership, you have received/entered His kingdom by becoming part of it.

Jesus himself said the kingdom was in their midst...their rejection of him did not make him any less a king.

 

[amigo de christo]

You ought to know what I "claim" about myself from our earliest conversation at the very least, but you are unable to resolve what you see as a contradiction....you are blind to it. We certainly are to seek to APPREHEND (get hold of) that which HAS ALREADY BEEN LAID UP IN HEAVEN (spiritual realm) for us. Let the Lord so shine His light and show us what we yet lack and where we still fall short. And it takes trust/faith in His love and mercy to do that. Let us press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If I jumped on that, it's only because it is true and you always deny/reject/refuse/negate that side of the coin, ie, you are rejecting and denying THE GOSPEL.

Sister . Hello my dear sister .
He is an incluisivian who has swallowed it down . If folks knew the spirit behind inclusivism
and what it do beleive , THEN know and understand what i next say .
MARVEL NOT that HE DOES DENY THE GOSPEL . FOR THE ALL INCLUSIVE DENIES IT . and that is and that has
become the god of many now .
And i do NOT EVEN THINK i need to tell YOU why i said god and NOT GOD . IT IS satan sister .
And marvel not that this can be the case .
For even as satan can appear as an angel OF LIGHT , though surely he be darkness
NO marvel that even his minstirs can appear to be men of righteousness . Yet only lead this people
into the LIE sister . I KNOW and have known exactly WHAT inclusivism has taught
and exactly WHAT spirit is behind it . And again i do not think i need to tell you why i wrote spirit and not rather SPIRIT .
THE DELUSION by which to merge the decieved has been unleashed . AND MERGE THEM IT WILL .
But the sheep will not buy , they will not drink of , and will n ot partake of its cisterns of empty water
and polluted meat . Because JESUS HAS the SHEEP . BUY THE TRUTH and SELL HER NOT .

 

[amigo de christo]

You ought to know what I "claim" about myself from our earliest conversation at the very least, but you are unable to resolve what you see as a contradiction....you are blind to it. We certainly are to seek to APPREHEND (get hold of) that which HAS ALREADY BEEN LAID UP IN HEAVEN (spiritual realm) for us. Let the Lord so shine His light and show us what we yet lack and where we still fall short. And it takes trust/faith in His love and mercy to do that. Let us press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If I jumped on that, it's only because it is true and you always deny/reject/refuse/negate that side of the coin, ie, you are rejecting and denying THE GOSPEL.

the lie . the one thing many now have in common , in which many even see as love and as loving IS the LIE .
And it is the lie that JESUS HIMSELF had warned about and against .
What is it the all false religoins , all athiest , all agnositics
and sadly now more and more within christendom now beleive and even see as so loving and so caring .
What is the lie .
THE LIE makes UNBELIEF okay . AND there it is FOR ALL TO SEE .
YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS , for if you BELEIVE NOT that i am HE then ye shall DIE in your sins .
But just as israel BELIEVED NOT the promises of GOD and thus were NOT ALLOWED INTO the promised land
MANY NOW , even within christendom NO LONGER BELIEVE the very CHRIST they cliam to BELIEVE IN .
THEY DO NOT BELEIVE in the dire NEED TO BELIEVE ON HIM .
Now lets see how that worked out at the tree .
WHAT DID GOD TELL them . IN the day ye eat of the tree in the midst of the garden YE SHALL SURELY DIE .
And what did the serpent say and how did he con vince eve to NOT BEIEEVE GOD but to believe HIS LIE .
WHY HE used a certain truth and did so in order to imply they would not die but that they would only
become as gods . WELL EVEN GOD said they have become as us to know good and evil
BUT DEATH SURELY DID COME UPON THEM .
And now that ol serpent has come again to once again
cause UNBELIEF in what GOD SAYS . under the guise that GOD is love and that surely they wont perish IF THEY BELIEVE NOT
on HIS CHRIST . well once again a partial truth is used , LIKE GOD IS LOVE
but just like he did in the garden HE TWISTS IT to imply ....................................A LIE .
THAT IS THE LIE . UNBELIEF IS THE LIE . As for me and for all s heep
IT IS GOD who we heed , IT IS JESUS who we heed and we BELEIVE and thus we POINT to the dire need for all TO BLEIEVE ON HIM .

 

[amigo de christo]

You ought to know what I "claim" about myself from our earliest conversation at the very least, but you are unable to resolve what you see as a contradiction....you are blind to it. We certainly are to seek to APPREHEND (get hold of) that which HAS ALREADY BEEN LAID UP IN HEAVEN (spiritual realm) for us. Let the Lord so shine His light and show us what we yet lack and where we still fall short. And it takes trust/faith in His love and mercy to do that. Let us press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If I jumped on that, it's only because it is true and you always deny/reject/refuse/negate that side of the coin, ie, you are rejecting and denying THE GOSPEL.

Lest ye become as CHILDREN ye shall NOT ENTER into THE KINGDOM OF GOD .
so much for this world wise scholars and their inclusivity .
Lest ye become AS CHILDREN , ye shal in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven and of God .
Wee children of GOD sure might not understand all things
BUT THEY SURE DO BELIEVE GOD and thus WOULD believe HIS CHRIST .

 

[Wrangler]

Well done @ Laurina! These verses should be addressed by our friend, @bdavidc and I look forward to his thoughtful reply.

@Wrangler

Zec. 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

Ps 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

Not that I want to get involved in your discussion...but I found these verses as I was reading this morning. Hope this sheds some light on your discussion.

@Wrangler
@bdavidc

P.S. (regarding gold being tried)

1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

Rev. 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

These verses support my original statement of more verses than initially used to support the observation.

Honestly, if you don”t recognize the progression in the Bible, I got to question your reading comprehension. I’m sure I could disregard the above list and compile an even longer one and so could @Episkopos but it wouldn’t alter the trajectory of your ears to hear beyond your indoctrinated theology.

Refining silver and listing 7 times being refined could reasonably be interpreted as progressive structure IF one was so inclined to see the light. Thanks again!

 

[marks]

Refining silver and listing 7 times being refined could reasonably be interpreted as progressive structure IF one was so inclined to see the light. Thanks again!

Wasn't @bdavidc 's disagreement with you over whether the parable itself expressed a progression of testing? Not whether we are tested only once, or more than once, but the parable itself. No?

 

[ProDeo]

Sister . Hello my dear sister .
He is an incluisivian who has swallowed it down . If folks knew the spirit behind inclusivism

Please explain what you mean by "inclusivism" and how does your definition of "inclusivism" apply to Epi and friends.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Wrangler]

Wasn't @bdavidc 's disagreement with you over whether the parable itself expressed a progression of testing? Not whether we are tested only once, or more than once, but the parable itself. No?

If you read post #68, I referenced many verses in Scripture - not just the one parable. I hope you understand that even if your claim is correct, it is still a Strawman argument against @Episkopos' observation of a progressive structure in Scripture.

Why do we do this? Why do we not accept general rules and observations: Jesus was a man; Jesus was a Jew; Jesus lived in the 1st century; These are all perfectly valid observations from the text AS IS progressive structure. Getting into the next level of detail, what supports each of these observations, I get the sense we are plagued with deconstructionism - the belief that there is no forest because there are no trees, just subatomic particles moving with uncertainty.

While that may be true "from a certain point of view," it certainly is not true from the normal human experience POV. There are trees, forests and a progressive structure in Scripture.

 

[marks]

If you read post #68, I referenced many verses in Scripture - not just the one parable.

Yes, they are talking about two separate things. Jesus said, "thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things" (Matthew 25:21). That passage is talking about increased responsibility due to faithfulness. It doesn't say, "I gave you a little test and you passed it so now I will give you a more difficult test."

God does test our faith according to scripture. James 1:3 talks about "the trying of your faith." However faithfulness and testing are two different concepts. Faithfulness can be shown through testing but Matthew 25:21 is not describing a system where God puts you through harder tests each time you pass. That is the difference.

No matter, I don't expect anything different.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

A just outcome? Not grace! A just outcome is for those who have not partook of grace, or else for those who have abused it. But grace brings about holiness. So it is to accomplish GLORY...an eternal glory in holiness.


But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed (bestowed) on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Not by human righteousness (whereby we are judged only by what we did) but by a higher empowering by the Spirit into a higher justification by grace (the power of God) into a higher inheritance (among the saints).


The lower walk of inheritance among the nations is based on OUR righteousness. Being meek, fearing God and doing righteousness.

The inheritance among the saints is based om being empowered by grace from God in the higher walk by the Spirit...to walk as Jesus walked...overcoming as He did.

He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev. 21:7

Hello, my Brother, I'm just listening, studying, and praying. For every word of GOD must be obeyed, to His Truth. We all must learn to live by His words. Matthew 4:4 KJV. Deuteronomy 8:3 KJV

Love, Walter

 

[Marvelloustime]

Lest ye become as CHILDREN ye shall NOT ENTER into THE KINGDOM OF GOD .
so much for this world wise scholars and their inclusivity .
Lest ye become AS CHILDREN , ye shal in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven and of God .
Wee children of GOD sure might not understand all things
BUT THEY SURE DO BELIEVE GOD and thus WOULD believe HIS CHRIST .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

the lie . the one thing many now have in common , in which many even see as love and as loving IS the LIE .
And it is the lie that JESUS HIMSELF had warned about and against .
What is it the all false religoins , all athiest , all agnositics
and sadly now more and more within christendom now beleive and even see as so loving and so caring .
What is the lie .
THE LIE makes UNBELIEF okay . AND there it is FOR ALL TO SEE .
YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS , for if you BELEIVE NOT that i am HE then ye shall DIE in your sins .
But just as israel BELIEVED NOT the promises of GOD and thus were NOT ALLOWED INTO the promised land
MANY NOW , even within christendom NO LONGER BELIEVE the very CHRIST they cliam to BELIEVE IN .
THEY DO NOT BELEIVE in the dire NEED TO BELIEVE ON HIM .
Now lets see how that worked out at the tree .
WHAT DID GOD TELL them . IN the day ye eat of the tree in the midst of the garden YE SHALL SURELY DIE .
And what did the serpent say and how did he con vince eve to NOT BEIEEVE GOD but to believe HIS LIE .
WHY HE used a certain truth and did so in order to imply they would not die but that they would only
become as gods . WELL EVEN GOD said they have become as us to know good and evil
BUT DEATH SURELY DID COME UPON THEM .
And now that ol serpent has come again to once again
cause UNBELIEF in what GOD SAYS . under the guise that GOD is love and that surely they wont perish IF THEY BELIEVE NOT
on HIS CHRIST . well once again a partial truth is used , LIKE GOD IS LOVE
but just like he did in the garden HE TWISTS IT to imply ....................................A LIE .
THAT IS THE LIE . UNBELIEF IS THE LIE . As for me and for all s heep
IT IS GOD who we heed , IT IS JESUS who we heed and we BELEIVE and thus we POINT to the dire need for all TO BLEIEVE ON HIM .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Sister . Hello my dear sister .
He is an incluisivian who has swallowed it down . If folks knew the spirit behind inclusivism
and what it do beleive , THEN know and understand what i next say .
MARVEL NOT that HE DOES DENY THE GOSPEL . FOR THE ALL INCLUSIVE DENIES IT . and that is and that has
become the god of many now .
And i do NOT EVEN THINK i need to tell YOU why i said god and NOT GOD . IT IS satan sister .
And marvel not that this can be the case .
For even as satan can appear as an angel OF LIGHT , though surely he be darkness
NO marvel that even his minstirs can appear to be men of righteousness . Yet only lead this people
into the LIE sister . I KNOW and have known exactly WHAT inclusivism has taught
and exactly WHAT spirit is behind it . And again i do not think i need to tell you why i wrote spirit and not rather SPIRIT .
THE DELUSION by which to merge the decieved has been unleashed . AND MERGE THEM IT WILL .
But the sheep will not buy , they will not drink of , and will n ot partake of its cisterns of empty water
and polluted meat . Because JESUS HAS the SHEEP . BUY THE TRUTH and SELL HER NOT .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

almost always epi ignores my posts .
NOW you go and read the one post he all of a sudden decided to answer
AND YOU SEE again what he wrote . I told you dear dear sister , THAT I KNOW what inclusvims teaches .
And epi was and is an admitted inclusivain . THEY beleive teh LIE sister . THE LIE
and that lie is gonna merge EVERY false religoin with the decieved of christendom .
And all of it be of anti christ and its peace plan .
You see epi aint the only incluisivian , pope francis was and scores of others are . and many
do not or may not even realize they are , BUT are being led right into it .
The key leaders of false religoins have been teaching it
the key leaders of Christenedom both RCC and prostestant ville have been teaching it .
OF course in slighly differing ways , but the same lie is being pumped unto them .
And what lie is that . You dont NEED to believe on JESUS THE CHRIST .
No wonder the false religoins bought it cause they DONT
but as far as christendom , WHO ACTUALLY LED IN IT , WOE UNTO THEM and DOUBLE WOE .
b ecause they used the name oF JESUS to DENY HIS OWN GOSPEL .
And bad as it will be for the false religoins
I shudder even more so to think HOW its gonna be for those who USED teh name of JESUS to DENY HIM .
Either way its gonna be bad . FOR TO DENY JESUS , AND DENIED ONE WILL BE .

@amigo de christo

 

[Hepzibah]

@ProDeo Is Irenaeus reliable?

 

[bdavidc]

Yea, this is how language works; being explicit all the time is not required AND the Bible is a highly metaphorical book, further making your explicit standard untenable.

From a logical perspective, you have not explained why progression is not reasonable. Tested in 1st grade gives certain prizes and awards, which invites further testing and more prizes and awards. This is how life works, my friend. It's not one and done. Take Presidential candidates. To be supported one must have been tested for many years and circumstances. Yet, they are tested in the primary debates. And they are tested again in the general election debates. This progression is seen everywhere. But you deny its applicability in Scripture - even though our Lord was tested progressively in the desert and on his last night.

I've used many examples in Scripture besides this one but you don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Make a blessed day.

Wrangler, you have now demonstrated exactly what I have been saying. This is eisegesis, plain and simple. You are reading your progressive-testing theory into Scripture instead of drawing doctrine out of Scripture.

Your argument has deteriorated into “this is how life works” and “progression is reasonable.” I do not care what happens in first grade, presidential debates, or anywhere else. We are discussing what Jesus taught. Human experience does not get to fill in what Scripture does not say.

And hiding behind “the Bible is highly metaphorical” makes it worse. Metaphor does not give you permission to invent doctrine between the lines. The meaning still comes from the text and its context.

Paul said, “that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6).

You are going beyond what is written and then teaching your addition as biblical truth. That is false teaching.

And telling me I lack “eyes to see or ears to hear” because I refuse to accept your unscriptural theory is nothing but arrogance. You have not uncovered some deeper truth. You have inserted one.

Stop giving me examples of how life works and produce Scripture that actually teaches your doctrine. Until then, you have an imagination, not an argument.