The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[ewq1938]

Thnx 1938
If we continue to believe Christ is who He says He is then BLASPH is not possible.
Mark of beast is also a no brainer, take it sends you to the lake of fire,

What about dying during the commission of sin ?

I don't think the bible covers something like that. I think most would hope God would not hold that sin against us because of the possibility of being unable to repent of the sin as most Christians do about any sins they commit. Hardliners might think sin is sin and if there was no repentance then no forgiveness. I hope that is not the case.

 

[ewq1938]

Again thnx 1938
If we are to repent of all sin before we die then there will literally only be a few in Heaven
If most sin is to be repented of then where or what is the line in the sand ?
1 Jn 5:13 John teaches KNOW we are saved so how can that be if there is indeed a LITS ?

There is also this:

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Douggg]

The rider of this white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.

No, Satan will not be the Antichrist.

The Antichrist becomes the beast (king) of Revelation 13, who will be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's return, Revelation 19:20.

Differently, Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 will be cast into the bottomless pit prison. Where Satan will not be able to deceive the nation for a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

Is that a LITS - line in the sand ?

Dunno. It's just something to consider.

If we confess our sins - is that all sin or most sin & yet how can we do that regarding ignorant sin or if we die during the commission of sin ?
I'm married, yet what of Christians who are in willful sin eg defacto couples whose only sin is dying while defacto ?

Not sure but I think a legal marriage may not always be considered a real marriage by God. Most of these things are really things only God could answer.

 

[Marvelloustime]

verily verily i do type unto thee , there be only one second coming . and its either wrath or to be with HIM .
ITS ALL A ONE TIME event . HE will come to tread the great and mighty winepress of the wrath OF GOD
upon all who did reject Him , unto all who joined hands in the great delusion of the great trangression by which
a harlot had spoon fed this entire world and its false religoins and much of even christendom
A false ecumeincal love and an anti christ intefaith plan of peace . Tick tock .....................for when they shall
say peace n safety , SUDDEN destructoin cometh down upon them all and they WILL NOT escape .

@amigo de christo

 

[LoveYeshua]

I am under no obligation to do more (to prove), for the words are not my own, mostly quoted from scripture and already clarified or explained. Does Christ not explain His parables (things given in example)? So, yes, but not all, as not all are given to know. But I have explained--not by my own doing, but by Him who is in me.

Why is this biblical process so hard for those who claim to believe Him who ordered it so, to understand?

i expected this that you cannot find any verses and Yes you have to prove what you preach here or it is all worthless and another opinion only, but if you cause damage to the faith of others with these false doctrines, God will hold you accountable.

 

[amigo de christo]

i expected this that you cannot find any verses and Yes you have to prove what you preach here or it is all worthless and another opinion only, but if you cause damage to the faith of others with these false doctrines, God will hold you accountable.

loveYeshua has typed truly .
For if we simply teach and claim thus sayeth the Lord
and what we teach and cliam be contary to THE HOLY WORDS of THE HOLY LORD ,
i can assure us all we love a lie and that it is NOT of G OD
and thus OH YEAH we will surely be held accountable
TO THE GOD who we cliamed to speak for and yet taught contrary to HIM .
And the blood of all who we did lie too , or that we allowed to b eleive a lie
say like a false inclusive broad path , OH YEAH we gonna be held accountable all right .
And even if we had gave to the p oor , t hose good deeds wont be saving
those who called GOD A LIAR . now think long and hard about that .
Visualize this next scenario , for even many dressed in wool are gonna face it on JUDGMENT day .
Imagine st anding before this HOLY GOD who has given ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON
and saying but Lord i fed the poor , i even helped ol grandmas accross the street .
ONLY TO BE TOLD , BUT YOU CALLED ME A LIAR all the time you were doing these so deeds .
And who calls GOD a liar , HE who believes NOT the testimony that GOD gave on THE SON .
And who also calls GOD a liar if even they are dressed in wool .
HE WHO CALLS SINS GOOD that GOD has called evil .
SO dare i say GET THEM RAINBOWS and koran kissers outta them churches and stop beleiving every lovey do
they cliam is the love of GOD when it darn sure aint .

 

[amigo de christo]

i expected this that you cannot find any verses and Yes you have to prove what you preach here or it is all worthless and another opinion only, but if you cause damage to the faith of others with these false doctrines, God will hold you accountable.

Wanna know a real simple way to test all spirits who do speak , seeing we have many false prophets even all over christendom .
Wanna know a real simple way to test if even a thought was contrary to GOD .
WHEN any such speaker , even thought , contradicts what is written , RED ALERT it cometh NOT OF GOD
nor of HIS SPIRIT .
FOR GOD IS TRUTH , THE WORD IS T RUTH , THE SPIRIT IS TRUTH and the words of GOD
HE would never contradict . GOD dont contradict TRUTH and HIS WORDS are T RUTH .
But someone else sure will contradict truth , THE DARK ONE and all who operate by mean of the carnal flesh
and wisdom of man , THEY UNDER HIS POWER and know it not .

 

[rebuilder 454]

The mistake is assuming that because Revelation 14 and Revelation 19 describe Jesus differently, they must describe two separate comings.
Different visions do not automatically mean different events. Revelation often shows the same end-time events from different angles.
In Revelation 14:14-16, John sees the Son of Man wearing a golden crown and holding a sharp sickle. The earth is ripe for harvest, and the harvest takes place. This is a picture of God's judgment at the end.
In Revelation 19:11-16, John sees Jesus as the victorious King who comes to judge and defeat the nations. This vision gives us a fuller picture of His victory and authority.
The important connection between these two passages. Revelation 14:19 says, “and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God” . Revelation 19:15 says that Jesus “treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty”

Both passages use the same image of God's wrath and judgment. This is strong evidence that the visions are connected,
not proof of two separate returns.

Jesus Himself described His return in Matthew 24:30 31, when the Son of Man comes on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and His angels gather His elect with a great trumpet. Revelation 19 shows the same Lord returning in victory, while Revelation 14 uses the picture of a harvest to show judgment.

Therefore, you have mistaken two different pictures of the end-time events for two different returns. The question is not whether the visions look different, but whether Scripture actually says Jesus returns twice. These passages do not say that at all and it contradicts other verses.

Lol.
Nice try.
That's like saying Jesus leaving earth to be on a cross is the exact same thing as Jesus leaving earth in Acts 1 after the ascension..

Then when corrected by invoking the obvious DIFFERENT DESCRIPTIONS AND TIMING, instead of admitting error, you say" the writers were looking at the same event using different descriptions.

Wow.
Look what your "one coming" has you doing.
CHANGING A FORBIDDEN BOOK.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The mistake is assuming that because Revelation 14 and Revelation 19 describe Jesus differently, they must describe two separate comings.
Different visions do not automatically mean different events. Revelation often shows the same end-time events from different angles.
In Revelation 14:14-16, John sees the Son of Man wearing a golden crown and holding a sharp sickle. The earth is ripe for harvest, and the harvest takes place. This is a picture of God's judgment at the end.
In Revelation 19:11-16, John sees Jesus as the victorious King who comes to judge and defeat the nations. This vision gives us a fuller picture of His victory and authority.
The important connection between these two passages. Revelation 14:19 says, “and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God” . Revelation 19:15 says that Jesus “treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty”

Both passages use the same image of God's wrath and judgment. This is strong evidence that the visions are connected,
not proof of two separate returns.

Jesus Himself described His return in Matthew 24:30 31, when the Son of Man comes on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and His angels gather His elect with a great trumpet. Revelation 19 shows the same Lord returning in victory, while Revelation 14 uses the picture of a harvest to show judgment.

Therefore, you have mistaken two different pictures of the end-time events for two different returns. The question is not whether the visions look different, but whether Scripture actually says Jesus returns twice. These passages do not say that at all and it contradicts other verses.

QUOTE
"The important connection between these two passages. Revelation 14:19 says, “and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God” . Revelation 19:15 says that Jesus “treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty”

Now you are saying rev 14:19 is also rev 14;14,15.

Wow.
That is terrible exegesis.
But thank you for that info on the "one coming" fallacy.
A great point actually.
It is one more dilemma for your theory.
So now you MUST BLENDERIZE rev 14 :14, 15 in with rev 14 :19.

I had never realized that goof by your doctrine, until you pointed out your own Bible changes.
Again, you changed a forbidden book.

It is Appalling what your doctrine is doing to its adherents.
One "clever" stunt after another

 

[LoveYeshua]

Lol.
Nice try.
That's like saying Jesus leaving earth to be on a cross is the exact same thing as Jesus leaving earth in Acts 1 after the ascension..

Then when corrected by invoking the obvious DIFFERENT DESCRIPTIONS AND TIMING, instead of admitting error, you say" the writers were looking at the same event using different descriptions.

Wow.
Look what your "one coming" has you doing.
CHANGING A FORBIDDEN BOOK.

its a complex topic but i would be happy for a pre trib rapture but scripture to me say something else, im studying this again now ill let you know what I find. but at the end, it that both of us follow Christ we may have different end time version but we know he will return.

Blessings Brother

 

[ScottA]

i expected this that you cannot find any verses and Yes you have to prove what you preach here or it is all worthless and another opinion only, but if you cause damage to the faith of others with these false doctrines, God will hold you accountable.

You who quench the Spirit and claim to know the scriptures but do not hear when they are spoken, God will also hold accountable.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You who quench the Spirit and claim to know the scriptures but do not hear when they are spoken, God will also hold accountable.

you mean as spoken by you? right?

 

[rebuilder 454]

its a complex topic but i would be happy for a pre trib rapture but scripture to me say something else, im studying this again now ill let you know what I find. but at the end, it that both of us follow Christ we may have different end time version but we know he will return.

Blessings Brother

All rapture verses are pretrib setting.
Rev 13 in its entirety says, no saint "goes through the tribulation", but all are martyred who refuse the mark.
The postrib rapture doctrine is "tribulation centered", the pretrib rapture doctrine is groom and bride centered.
The pretrib rapture doctrine has its adherents looking for Jesus.
The postrib doctrine says he is not coming for many years, which is what leads postribbers to "mock the ridiculousness", of a pretrib rapture, and anyone ascribing to that doctrine
The pretrib rapture doctrine has 8 or 9 pretrib rapture verses.
The postrib rapture doctrine has 1 and it actually points to a pretrib rapture .

There is no such thing as a bible student "correctly leaving" the pretrib rapture doctrine evidence, and supposedly seeing more bible evidence in a postrib rapture model.

What is going on is a rebellion against the IDEA of a pretrib rapture model, and invoking "condemnation prior to investigation".

 

[LoveYeshua]

All rapture verses are pretrib setting.
Rev 13 in its entirety says, no saint "goes through the tribulation", but all are martyred who refuse the mark.
The postrib rapture doctrine is "tribulation centered", the pretrib rapture doctrine is groom and bride centered.
The pretrib rapture doctrine has its adherents looking for Jesus.
The postrib doctrine says he is not coming for many years, which is what leads postribbers to "mock the ridiculousness", of a pretrib rapture, and anyone ascribing to that doctrine
The pretrib rapture doctrine has 8 or 9 pretrib rapture verses.
The postrib rapture doctrine has 1 and it actually points to a pretrib rapture .

There is no such thing as a bible student "correctly leaving" the pretrib rapture doctrine evidence, and supposedly seeing more bible evidence in a postrib rapture model.

What is going on is a rebellion against the IDEA of a pretrib rapture model, and invoking "condemnation prior to investigation".

Brother in Christ,

at the end, all of us have be ready and persevere and to remember;

“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come” (Matthew 24:42)
so far I don't think any of us can prove conclusively when the rapture will occur.

Blessings

 

[ScottA]

Brother in Christ,

at the end, all of us have be ready and persevere and to remember;

“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come” (Matthew 24:42)
so far I don't think any of us can prove conclusively when the rapture will occur.

Blessings

Even Jesus did not "prove" conclusively when the rapture will occur.

But if we believe His words, it is "today", for that is what He told the thief on the cross who was assured by Jesus that he would be caught up to Paradise that very day.

Reconcile that! Have you--can you?

 

[Sel@h]

I don't think the bible covers something like that. I think most would hope God would not hold that sin against us because of the possibility of being unable to repent of the sin as most Christians do about any sins they commit. Hardliners might think sin is sin and if there was no repentance then no forgiveness. I hope that is not the case.

God’s mercy endures forever!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How many comings are there by Jesus?

One future coming. He will come from heaven in like manner as He ascended there (Acts 1:9-11).

Is the "postrib one and only coming" at the white horses, postrib, depicted in Rev 19?

Yes.

Or is the completely different coming in Rev 14:14 the one and only coming ?

Both passages refer to the same one and only future coming of Christ with each giving different details about it. Not every passage about the second coming of Christ contains the same details relating to that event. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None of those verses mention a rapture. If they do and I missed it...post it.

The rapture will occur when believers are gathered to meet Jesus. Both Matthew 24:29-31 and the parallel passage of Mark 13:24-27 reference the gathering of the elect when Jesus comes. The elect refer to believers in the church (Romans 8:31-34). So, what other gathering of believers can that refer to except for the one that will occur when Jesus comes, as also written about in verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1?

How is the rapture as you put it....clearly taught....here.

It refers to a gathering of believers when Jesus comes just as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. They refer to the same gathering of believers that will occur when Jesus comes. Very simple.

I've mentioned it to you several times. I spoke of the social economical conditions.
Do you need me to repeat it?

Scripture does not speak of "social economical conditions" relating to when Jesus comes, so you're just making that up. What scripture teaches is that people will be spiritually oblivious to what's going on and to the fact that God is angry with them and they will not see it coming when His wrath comes down on them when Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night. In no way, shape or form does that support the imaginary pre-trib rapture theory.

Christ brings back those in spirit form that have already died. Reunited them with their body...then raptures the christians that have not died yet....then takes them to His Fathers house where He has built rooms for us. John 14: 1-4.

It does not say He will take us to heaven. He will bring heaven to us. Otherwise, what is the point of us meeting Him "in the air"? Why not just meet Him in heaven instead if He was going to turn around and go back there?

 

[CrowCross]

The rapture will occur when believers are gathered to meet Jesus. Both Matthew 24:29-31 and the parallel passage of Mark 13:24-27 reference the gathering of the elect when Jesus comes. The elect refer to believers in the church (Romans 8:31-34). So, what other gathering of believers can that refer to except for the one that will occur when Jesus comes, as also written about in verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1?

24But in those days, after that tribulation:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Your theology says at that time...Jesus comes back. I agree. This is the Rev 19:11 return.

But, there's one little detail you guy forget about.
Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

Jesus didn't leave under conditions when the sun was darkened...when the moon didn't give its light...when stars were falling from heaven...while the powers of heaven were shaking.....When you add to it Rev 19:11 and the return of Jesus on a white horse...and the understanding that Jesus didn't leave on a white horse it should be pretty clear that 1 Thes 4:16 is a DIFFERENT EVENT.

It refers to a gathering of believers when Jesus comes just as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. They refer to the same gathering of believers that will occur when Jesus comes. Very simple.

I agree. When 2 Thes 2:1 speaks of the "gathering" it is speaking of the rapture mentioned in 1 Thes 4:16.

Scripture does not speak of "social economical conditions" relating to when Jesus comes, so you're just making that up. What scripture teaches is that people will be spiritually oblivious to what's going on and to the fact that God is angry with them and they will not see it coming when His wrath comes down on them when Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night. In no way, shape or form does that support the imaginary pre-trib rapture theory.

You said..."Scripture does not speak of "social economical conditions" relating to when Jesus comes"
What is this? 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage...added too in Luke 17:28 they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;....How is that not a description of "social economical conditions"??????

Why do you think the social economical conditions mentioned above is the way it will be at the end of the tribulation?

It does not say He will take us to heaven. He will bring heaven to us. Otherwise, what is the point of us meeting Him "in the air"? Why not just meet Him in heaven instead if He was going to turn around and go back there?

John 14 answers that question.
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”...........Jesus said "I'll be back" long before Arnold did.

What do you think Jesus is talking about here?