Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[Douggg]

How can Yeshua come 1,335 days after the AoD when the power of the Beast is removed 1,260 days after it?

What is your basis for saying that the power of the Beast is removed 1260 days after the AoD is setup ?

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The power of the beast is removed when Jesus returns. The beast (and the false prophet) will be cast into the lake of fire.

AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns, AoD removed, and the beast (and the false prophet) cast into the lake of fire.

 

[KUWN]

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Each number in one section corresponds to the same number in the other/lower section. This is also a list that supports the Rapture happening before the Tribulation, and the Second Coming happening at the end of the Tribulation.





At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[KUWN]

What is your basis for saying that the power of the Beast is removed 1260 days after the AoD is setup ?

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The power of the beast is removed when Jesus returns. The beast (and the false prophet) will be cast into the lake of fire.

AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns, AoD removed, and the beast (and the false prophet) cast into the lake of fire.

The Lord returns to earth 1260 days after the AoD. Before the Millennium begins, there appears to be some clean up work needed since hundreds of millions of people will be dead. That is just a guess, but it is the case that Christ returns 1260 days after the AoD. The Millennium will start 75 days after the 1260. What happens between the 1260 and 1335 is anyone's guess.

 

[Douggg]

The Lord returns to earth 1260 days after the AoD.

What is your basis for saying the Lord returns to earth 1260 days after the AoD is setup ?

 

[A Watchman]

The sixth seal event reveals the Sign of the Son of man in heaven. Jesus's return down to earth does not take place until 45 days later.

Matthew 2430 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-27 – "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 – "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Matthew 24:30 talks about the sign of the Son of man in heaven, but Mark and Luke just speak to seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds. These are all talking about the same time, but Matthew adds that sign of the Son of man because of what Yeshua said about not being deceived about a false messiah on the earth. Mark and Luke did not record the sign of His coming and so did not seem to separate the sign of His coming from His coming.

Matthew 24:26-27 – "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

The sign of the Son of man in heaven is the lightning coming from the east to the west that is tied to His coming. The sign and His coming are the same time.

The seventh seal was opened by Jesus back when John was in heaven. It revealed the end times event of the seven angels being given the seven trumpets.

All the seals were opened when John was seeing the vision in heaven. All the trumpets were blown and bowls poured out too. But the trumpets were blown in a sequence. Having the trumpets and using them are two different things. Stuff happens when they're blown, not when they're given. They're markers of events that will come to pass and are meant to give order to them.

My statement was about your chart placing the sixth seal toward the end of the week. It comes before the seventh seal at which time the seven angels are given the trumpets, but the trumpets are all blown before the end of the week and you're putting the trumpets before the seal that leads to them being given to the angels. It doesn't make sense of the logical framework given by the vision to John.

 

[A Watchman]

What is your basis for saying that the power of the Beast is removed 1260 days after the AoD is setup ?

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The power of the beast is removed when Jesus returns. The beast (and the false prophet) will be cast into the lake of fire.

AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns, AoD removed, and the beast (and the false prophet) cast into the lake of fire.

The basis for the removal of the power of the beast after 1,260 days is that is the length of his reign that is allowed.

Daniel 7:25 – "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 12:7 – "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished."

Revelation 13:5-7 – "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

I agree, the power of the Beast is removed when Yeshua returns and they're cast into the lake of fire. That's the point I've been making. When does their power start?

Matthew 24:15, 21-22 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Revelation 12:13 – "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]."

Revelation 13:2-3 – "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Daniel 11:45-12:1 – "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

You:
AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns

Me:
AoD setup................................1260 days...................................Jesus returns

 

[KUWN]

What is your basis for saying the Lord returns to earth 1260 days after the AoD is setup ?

The AoD happens at the halfway mark (3 1/2 years, 1260 days) in to the Tribulation. Christ returns 3 1/2 years later. The Second Coming can be calculated based on when the Covenant is signed by the Antichrist and the Jews.

Daniel 9.27 (In Daniel, the Hebrew word used for "weeks" is the same word for "sevens." So 70 sevens is 490 years. Christ dies after 483 sevens. That leaves 7 years to get to 490. This is why the Tribulation is 7 years, 483 plus 7 = 490.

above not edited (I am too tired)

 

[Douggg]

You:
AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns

Me:
AoD setup................................1260 days...................................Jesus returns

Daniel 12:11-12 indicates that there will be 1290 days and 1335 days involved after the AoD is setup.

On your time line show those 1290 days and 1335 days.

AoD setup................................1260 days...................................Jesus returns

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On my time line...

AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns
AoD setup................................1290 days............Sign of the son of man in heaven

 

[Douggg]

The AoD happens at the halfway mark (3 1/2 years, 1260 days) in to the Tribulation. Christ returns 3 1/2 years later. The Second Coming can be calculated based on when the Covenant is signed by the Antichrist and the Jews.

Daniel 9.27 (In Daniel, the Hebrew word used for "weeks" is the same word for "sevens." So 70 sevens is 490 years. Christ dies after 483 sevens. That leaves 7 years to get to 490. This is why the Tribulation is 7 years, 483 plus 7 = 490.

above not edited (I am too tired)

When reading Daniel 9:27, it is in the midst (middle part), nor mid-point (day 1260), that the AoD begins.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. kjv

 

[KUWN]

Daniel 12:11-12 indicates that there will be 1290 days and 1335 days involved after the AoD is setup.

On your time line show those 1290 days and 1335 days.

AoD setup................................1260 days...................................Jesus returns

I am not following you here. But my numbers are correct. You say "Daniel 12:11-12 indicates that there will be 1290 days and 1335 days involved after the AoD is setup." That is correct. This is what I thought I said. Let me know if I goofed the numbers.

AoD setup...............................1260 days (return of Christ).....................1290 days...................1335 days (Millennial Reign of Christ starts)

 

[Douggg]

I am not following you here. But my numbers are correct. You say "Daniel 12:11-12 indicates that there will be 1290 days and 1335 days involved after the AoD is setup." That is correct. This is what I thought I said. Let me know if I goofed the numbers.

AoD setup...............................1260 days (return of Christ).....................1290 days...................1335 days (Millennial Reign of Christ starts)

On your time line, what takes place on the 1290th day after the AoD is setup ?

What I think is in understanding Daniel 12:11-12 is to not extend beyond the day of Jesus's return.

What I think will happen on the 1290th day after the AoD is setup is that the Sign of the Son of man is seen in (the third) heaven (by all who dwell upon the earth).

In Revelation 6:12-17, for the sixth seal event, we read about the powers of heaven, the universe, shaken, and parted - making way for all who dwell upon earth to see up to the third heaven - and Jesus there, sickle in hand.

The powers of heaven shaken is also in Matthew 24:29. And the Sign of the Son of man appearing to all upon the earth, in Matthew 24:30a.

So, on my chart I so this as...

 

[KUWN]

On your time line, what takes place on the 1290th day after the AoD is setup ?

What I think is in understanding Daniel 12:11-12 is to not extend beyond the day of Jesus's return.

What I think will happen on the 1290th day after the AoD is setup is that the Sign of the Son of man is seen in heaven (by all who dwell upon the earth). In Revelation 6:12-17, for the sixth seal event, we read about the powers of heaven, the universe, shaken, and parted - making way for all who dwell upon earth to see up to the third heaven - and Jesus there, sickle in hand.

The powers of heaven shaken is also in Matthew 24:29. And the Sign of the Son of man appearing to all upon the earth, in Matthew 24:30a.

So, on my chart I so this as...

View attachment 93118

Sorry Douggg, but I simply do not see it the way you do. We are miles apart. But, to answer your question about what happens at he 1290 day period, we are not told.

 

[Douggg]

My statement was about your chart placing the sixth seal toward the end of the week. It comes before the seventh seal at which time the seven angels are given the trumpets, but the trumpets are all blown before the end of the week and you're putting the trumpets before the seal that leads to them being given to the angels. It doesn't make sense of the logical framework given by the vision to John.

Sequentially speaking when reading Revelation, the first sixth seals were opened in Revelation 6. And the seventh seal opened in Revelation 8.

All of the seals, having been opened, reveal future events to happen.

The trumpets will be blown during the great tribulation, that last 1335 days right before Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry Douggg, but I simply do not see it the way you do. We are miles apart. But, to answer your question about what happens at he 1290 day period, we are not told.

You are correct that we are not told in the text of Daniel 12:11 what happens at the end of the 1290 days.

I think the 1335th day of Daniel 12:12 though can be concluded with certainty to be the day that Jesus returns.

Which would put that 1290th day event within the 1335 days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Each number in one section corresponds to the same number in the other/lower section. This is also a list that supports the Rapture happening before the Tribulation, and the Second Coming happening at the end of the Tribulation.





At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

This is all baseless. You have no scriptural evidence at all to back up what you're saying here. In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 Paul speaks of the dead in Christ coming with Him. That is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ. He comes for those who are alive and remain and they are caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet Him in the air. Him coming with His own and for His own is not two separate events. Mark 13:24-27 also shows this because it says the elect (those in the church are the elect - Romans 8:31-34) will be gathered from the uttermost part of heaven and the uttermost part of earth.

Tell me, do you believe the following verse describes what will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

I don't see any reason why anyone would believe what is described above would happen at any other time than when the rapture occurs and we are caught up to meet Christ in the air. That clearly is when He will come "to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.". Do you agree? If not, why not?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I actually think the one taken speaks to the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. Luke 17:26-37 clarifies some of the oddities of Matthew's account.

Matthew 24:15-28 depicts the unparalleled time in Judea started at the abomination of desolation that is cut short by the return of Yeshua. It speaks of deception regarding a false messiah and warns to flee, ending with "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matthew then goes back to this time about the unknown day and hour of His coming, speaking of the days of Noah and one taken one left.

Luke 17:26-37 brings this all together in one narrative that makes sense of the one taken and one left in the days of the coming of the Son of man, because that unparalleled time before Yeshua returns to save His people out of it is a time of unparalleled ripping apart of the family of Jacob. The one taken is killed and the birds gather to feast, they are the ones who refused the false messiah and didn't flee while the one left is the one who capitulates and accepts the false messiah and is allowed to live.

The abomination of desolation and return of Christ and the wrath of God all take place within a period of around a month, these are the days of the coming of Christ in which martyrs are killed in Judea who didn't flee to the mountains and the remnant faithful to God will see Him coming on the clouds of heaven and look on Him whom they pierced and mourn. He will save them into the wilderness and protect them there from the false messiah, but those days from the abomination of desolation to His coming will see a lot of death.

Read Joel 2 and I think we see this zealous army of followers of the false messiah, climbing walls and entering into windows like thieves. They're enforcing worship of the false messiah and killing all who reject him, an unstoppable army going through Judea with the zeal of their false god leading them to kill their own friends and family in his name, drunk on the blood of the saints. In their mind, the Messiah has come, but in their blindness they've been deceived.

At Yeshua's first parousia, the Jews were partly divided and the zealous that rejected Yeshua persecuted and killed Him and His followers. Before His second parousia the 12 tribes will be back in the land, mostly blinded to Yeshua and accepting a man of sin, a Dragon in lamb's clothing. Instead of persecuting and killing for going after Yeshua like the first century, an unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble will rip families apart as those following a man who came in his own name persecutes and kills those who won't follow after him.

Lol.
You are presenting the "one taken" as a "wicked man raptured before the flood"
A pretrib rapture of wicked people.

Wow.
It gets worse every day..

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Lord returns to earth 1260 days after the AoD. Before the Millennium begins, there appears to be some clean up work needed since hundreds of millions of people will be dead. That is just a guess, but it is the case that Christ returns 1260 days after the AoD. The Millennium will start 75 days after the 1260. What happens between the 1260 and 1335 is anyone's guess.

Nope pretrib.
Jesus gave us the timing and the setting, teaching the coming was pretrib.
Normal life, everyday life, commerce, and planning for the future.
He even explicitly, and vividly, told us roughly half the church is raptured, "one taken, one left behind"
Your model has no provision for those 2 things or the innumerable number, murdered by the ac, during the trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope pretrib.
Jesus gave us the timing and the setting, teaching the coming was pretrib.
Normal life, everyday life, commerce, and planning for the future.
He even explicitly, and vividly, told us roughly half the church is raptured, "one taken, one left behind"
Your model has no provision for those 2 things or the innumerable number, murdered by the ac, during the trib.

Half of the church raptured? LOL!!! Such nonsense. No one in the church will be left behind. Jesus said those left behind will become bird food. Have you never read Luke 17:26-37?

 

[A Watchman]

Daniel 12:11-12 indicates that there will be 1290 days and 1335 days involved after the AoD is setup.

On your time line show those 1290 days and 1335 days.

AoD setup................................1260 days...................................Jesus returns

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On my time line...

AoD setup................................1335 days...................................Jesus returns
AoD setup................................1290 days............Sign of the son of man in heaven

You stated "the power of the beast is removed when Jesus returns. The beast (and the false prophet) will be cast into the lake of fire."

I agree.

But Daniel 7:25, 11:7, and Revelation 13:5 state that the beast only has power for 1,260 days (42 months/3.5 times). If that power that began at the AoD is removed when Yeshua returns, then how many days are between the AoD and His return at Armageddon?

The Bible says 1,260 days from the AoD to Yeshua's return at Armageddon while you say 1,335 days. One of those two must be wrong.

 

[A Watchman]

Sequentially speaking when reading Revelation, the first sixth seals were opened in Revelation 6. And the seventh seal opened in Revelation 8.

All of the seals, having been opened, reveal future events to happen.

The trumpets will be blown during the great tribulation, that last 1335 days right before Jesus returns.

View attachment 93122

So you're saying that all seven seals are opened, and that reveal future events, have been opened before the trumpets begin.

But your other image shows the sixth seal event also in the 1,335 days, 45 days before Yeshua returns at Armageddon. (See below)

How does the (sixth seal event) take place at the very end of the trumpets and bowls?

Are you saying that the seals, trumpets, and bowls in their sequence are declared for events that will happen in the future out of that sequence?