Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[Stranger]

If you check my opening post you will see that it talks about the parable in Luke 12:42-46 while you have latched on to the parable before it, in Luke 12:35-40.

Yes, the parable in Luke 12:35-40 is speaking to the public just as you say but then ...
In Luke 12:41 Peter asked his question and then ...
In Luke 12:42-46 Jesus responded with the parable about a single servant who can face reward or wrath.

It is the parable in Luke 12:42-46 that is in discussion.

God bless,
Mick

There are not two parables here. The parable is (Luke 35:-40). If you cannot understand what the parable is then how can you hope to interpret it? The parable is (35-40). The explanation is (41-48).

And you offer nothing to what I have said other than you don't believe in pre-trib theology.

In other words, your use of this parable to prove a believer can lose their salvation, is null and void.

Stranger

 

[FHII]

There are not two parables here. The parable is (Luke 35:-40). If you cannot understand what the parable is then how can you hope to interpret it? The parable is (35-40). The explanation is (41-48).

And you offer nothing to what I have said other than you don't believe in pre-trib theology.

In other words, your use of this parable to prove a believer can lose their salvation, is null and void.

Stranger

Yep... Wasn't a different parable. One parable and then an explanation. Furthermore, you can't just isolate one parable and not consider every other parable given.

 

[Mick_Alexander]

Not sure about your interpretation because Jesus never called the neglectful, drunkard and servant beater wise.

My friend you have again missed what the parable is about. You say, "Jesus never called the neglectful, drunkard and servant beater wise". That is 100% true but Jesus did say that the servant was once wise and faithful. Remember, there is only ONE servant and Jesus said that he would be either rewarded for remaining faithful or condemned if he because unfaithful by beating the other servants and getting drunk.

God bless,
Mick

 

[Mick_Alexander]

There are not two parables here. The parable is (Luke 35:-40). If you cannot understand what the parable is then how can you hope to interpret it? The parable is (35-40). The explanation is (41-48).

And you offer nothing to what I have said other than you don't believe in pre-trib theology.

In other words, your use of this parable to prove a believer can lose their salvation, is null and void.

Stranger

If you can't see that the first parable is talking to the crowd and the second to future church leaders then I can't say much more. Haven't you noticed that the first parable talks about servants (plural) while the second talks about a servant (singular)?

I think we will only go in circles so I will leave it at that.

 

[Stranger]

If you can't see that the first parable is talking to the crowd and the second to future church leaders then I can't say much more. Haven't you noticed that the first parable talks about servants (plural) while the second talks about a servant (singular)?

I think we will only go in circles so I will leave it at that.

The parable states in (Luke 12:37), " Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Peter asked, (Luke 12:41), "...Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?"

(Luke 12:42) " And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, who his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?"

Jesus in (12:42) is identifying who the fatihful servants are in (12:37), due to Peter's question. This is easily seen as in the parable (12:37) and in the explanation, (12:42), both are sat down to be given food.

The same parable is given in (Matt. 24:42-51) which as I showed, occurs after the Tribulation. (24:29) The Church is already gone. The parable speaks to those believers who are alive during the Tribulation and waiting for the Lords return to set up the kingdom. And then the Lord appoints or rewards those based on their actions and watchfullness. This reward is not an entrance into heaven. It is a place within the millennial kingdom. As unbelievers will be in the kingdom, these servants of God who have not been watchful, will have their place with the unbelievers.

This parable does not teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. We can certainly apply it to us in that it shows the importance of remaining faithful and watching our conduct knowing that the Lord sees it all. And, that we too have a judgement of rewards to attend. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

Stranger

 

[FHII]

That is 100% true but Jesus did say that the servant was once wise and faithful.

What version are you reading? I ask because the KJV doesn't read that way. It says if the servant does one thing, he's wise. If he does the other he's not. It doesn't describe a situation where he did one thing and later did something else.

 

[ScottA]

The parable is not about "most of the disciples and believers". It is about one faithful servant.

Jesus gave the parable in response to Peter's question and it is about a saved servant who would be put in charge of the church while He was away. Peter was one of those men. Jesus was speaking directly to the likes of Peter telling him that he would be either rewarded for remaining faithful or condemned if he became unfaithful. That, to me, is the plain reading of the parable.

God bless,
Mick

Not so.

The parable is, first of all, not about those who are "saved". Again, "saved" by definition, means "saved." You may want to question whether or not God is true or a liar, but I do not and know better.

Then, the parable is not about "one faithful servant." It is about multiple possible scenarios with those who had not yet received the saving Holy Spirit of God. Jesus eluded to His going away and return, and what was possible among those who were waiting on his promise of salvation.

Finally, the parable does not address the saved who have received the Holy Spirit, but rather tells of a future time of His sending holy "fire on the earth" - this is the time of salvation, and not before. Then He goes on in verses 54-56 to address the timing...which you have mistaken.

 

[BreadOfLife]

These are those who were never believers. They were false teachers. (2 Peter 2:1).

Stranger

That's not true.
This verse is speaking about born again, spirit-filled Christians who LOST their salvation.

The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosis). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

You cannot get around the linguistic implications of "Epignosis" here.
Here are some other verses that drive this point home:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
Here, we see "EPIGNOSIS" again. Only Christians have had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to an ignorant person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness. The "secure position" is an assurance of salvation that will be LOST if we fall away.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with. This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Stranger]

BreadOfLife

Save your grocery lists for another, as I have told you before.

(2 Peter 2:1) is clear. It is addressed to false teachers and prophets. They are not saved.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

BreadOfLife
Save your grocery lists for another, as I have told you before.
(2 Peter 2:1) is clear. It is addressed to false teachers and prophets. They are not saved.

Stranger

A born again Christian can BECOME a false prophet.
Epignosis of Christ only happens to Christians. You cannot have a full, experiential knowledge of Christ if you are NOT born again.

Like I said - there is simply NO getting around the linguistic implications of Epignosis.


PS - if long lists of Scriptural evidence bother you - maybe you get to know God's Word a little better . . .

 

[Stranger]

A born again Christian can BECOME a false prophet.
Epignosis of Christ only happens to Christians. You cannot have a full, experiential knowledge of Christ if you are NOT born again.

Like I said - there is simply NO getting around the linguistic implications of Epignosis.


PS - if long lists of Scriptural evidence bother you - maybe you get to know God's Word a little better . . .

Your grocery lists don't bother me because I don't pay attention to them.

(2 Peter 2:1) is clear. These are not Christians. "denying the Lord that bought them". See?

Stranger

 

[Peanut]

I appreciate what you have to say but you need Scripture to back your position.

I outlined what I believe the parable is saying. I believe it is talking about one servant who can either face reward or condemnation when Jesus returns. This clearly speaks of salvation loss.

How do you interpret it?

God bless,
Mick

Is eternal life eternal salvation?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your grocery lists don't bother me because I don't pay attention to them.

(2 Peter 2:1) is clear. These are not Christians. "denying the Lord that bought them". See?

Stranger

WRONG.
Stop cherry-picking and read the entire passage:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE (Epignosis) of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

". . . having escaped the defilements" through a "full, experiential knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Peter is saying that these people were ONCE saved, born again Christians who had a full, experiential knowledge of Jesus and fell back in to sin.

The fact that he says "it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness" should be a dead giveaway for you.
Jesus said that those to whom have been given much - MUCH will be expected (Luke 12:48).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is eternal life eternal salvation?

God can take away anything He has given if we do not cooperate with His grace:

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Only those who HAD a share to begin with can have it taken away . . .

 

[Stranger]

WRONG.
Stop cherry-picking and read the entire passage:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE (Epignosis) of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

". . . having escaped the defilements" through a "full, experiential knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Peter is saying that these people were ONCE saved, born again Christians who had a full, experiential knowledge of Jesus and fell back in to sin.

The fact that he says "it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness" should be a dead giveaway for you.
Jesus said that those to whom have been given much - MUCH will be expected (Luke 12:48).

(2 Peter 2:1) gives you the context of who is being addressed. "denying the Lord that bought them". Pretty simple. They are not Christian.

Even our witness to others of Christ brings salvation or damnation. To one we are the savour of life unto life. To the other we are a savour of death unto death. (2 Cor. 2:14-15) But in both God is pleased with our witness. Those who deny do so willingly. We show them the way, but we cannot make them believe.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

God can take away anything He has given if we do not cooperate with His grace:

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Only those who HAD a share to begin with can have it taken away . . .

Why don't you answer the question? Is eternal life eternal?

Stranger

 

[Peanut]

Why don't you answer the question? Is eternal life eternal?

Stranger

They have haven't they? They believe in works salvation.
They're Catholic you know.

 

[Stranger]

They have haven't they? They believe in works salvation.
They're Catholic you know.

Yes, I am aware they are what I call Romanists. As all of the Church is Catholic. But, I find many Protestants who believe you can lose your salvation also.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

The parable is not about "most of the disciples and believers". It is about one faithful servant.

Jesus gave the parable in response to Peter's question and it is about a saved servant who would be put in charge of the church while He was away. Peter was one of those men. Jesus was speaking directly to the likes of Peter telling him that he would be either rewarded for remaining faithful or condemned if he became unfaithful. That, to me, is the plain reading of the parable.

God bless,
Mick

But surely this is once again muddling up and misunderstanding the difference between our salvation, which is free ( Jesus paid the price) and the rewards of service!!

This to me is nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, but faithfulness in committed service. There is no reward for salvation...for that would be "by works"..... There is reward for service. That is what we are each doing, or not, day by day.

Bless you....H

 

[BreadOfLife]

(2 Peter 2:1) gives you the context of who is being addressed. "denying the Lord that bought them". Pretty simple. They are not Christian.

Even our witness to others of Christ brings salvation or damnation. To one we are the savour of life unto life. To the other we are a savour of death unto death. (2 Cor. 2:14-15) But in both God is pleased with our witness. Those who deny do so willingly. We show them the way, but we cannot make them believe.

Stranger

No - "denying the Lord that bought them" simply means that they NOW deny Him. It doesn't mean that they ALWAYS did.
They HAVE a full, experiential knowledge of Jesus. Only a born again person can have that.

You cannot get around that pesky "Epignosis" . . .