Did God Need Jesus' Sacrifice to Make You Acceptable to Him?

[Richard_oti]

... the purpose of the blood was ... <snip>

Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

I always found the word "aforetime" here rather interesting.

 

[Richard_oti]

I hate eyerolls and think they should be eliminated from all forums

<chuckle> I noticed.

 

[Richard_oti]

so much for all that "I came for the sinners, not the righteous" jazz then, huh

A rather overlooked aspect.

 

[Stranger]

Its a simple idea stright from the word of God. Nothing is impossible with God. Not my idea at all. but its fun watching you try to provide what you cant defend with scripture. we are not talking about whats known to man. we are talking about God.
You do not have scripture that says anything like. God could not have done anything else. or God had no other way. I know all the scriptures telling us whats not available or is avaliable to man. We aint talking about man. Think this is the part you are tripping up on. Tell me what God cant do?

Pay attention. Go back to my post #150. I gave you three things that are impossible for God.

God cannot cease to be Himself. He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:13) "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

Thats not the question. I dont know of any other way known to man. The question is could God have done. Not me.

Well, I wasn't asking if you could, I was asking if God could have done it another way. My answer to that is no. Like I said, the sacrifice had to be born of a woman and without blemish, one who knew no sin. Since all have fallen short of Gods glory, then the sacrifice had to come from one made without hands. Therefore the only sacrifice that could be acceptable to God was from his only begotten son. To say that there was another way makes a moron out of God and the gospel null and void.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I see.
You use a Bible verse in your posts, "delight in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart". Is that an 'ignorant concept'?

No, my dear.
Does it portray God as an angry, killing machine? So, no. :]

Is Jesus Christ an ignorant concept?

....was he portrayed as an angry killing machine? So, no.

How do you know that God is nothing but love?

A fair and honest question;
from direct, up-close and personal, intimate contact.
Does this confound good people that read the Bible? Yes, it does.
I am sorry for that...i can not explain it.

I do not worship a roadmap, nor an owner's or instruction manual...
the destination 'is the thing'.
Lemme use an analogy:
Once I have reached the Magic Kingdom, Disney World, in Kissimee, Fl...I leave the roadmap
in the car and enjoy!

So it is pretty impossible for me to ever debate what the roadmap says...But, I can
talk about my happiness...that's about it.
So it frustrates many nice people that want me to go back to my car in the parking lot
and discuss routes and various roadblocks on that map.

I am sorry in advance i don't fit some mold many people have that have their noses
still in the map...I'm happily on a ride delighting in it.
I will start a thread on that verse in my signature, good idea. So many
complicate this life and the the joys here, I find.

 

[charity]

Are you laboring under the impression that God needed Christ's sacrifice in order to make you saved or acceptable to Him? Because that is a lie, ok, straight from hell and pastors. If you think you have some verse that supports this notion, then post it and let's see.

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@bbyrd009
@Miss Hepburn

Please explain to me why you believe that the sacrifice of Christ was unnecessary?

 

[bbyrd009]

Please explain to me why you believe that the sacrifice of Christ was unnecessary?

the point i wished to bring out here is not that Christ was unnecessary at all--even if that could be made to be true in some characterization that i currently don't see--but that it is people who needed (to follow) Christ in order to stand in the light, not God Who needed Christ in order to make you acceptable to Him.

Now obviously one cannot be "with" God unless they follow Christ, but i believe, i'm pretty sure that is because they would not be comfortable there, or would rather be somewhere else--anywhere else--where...their egos are not so exposed? Where their hypocrisies are acceptable? Something like that.

Ever seen anyone get all weird when someone they are jealous of is around? Imo that might be a good model of "hell."

 

[bbyrd009]

and imo Stranger and lots of other "fire and brimstone" types just project our anger onto God, the God reflected in the OT, iow.
It is widely assumed that God needed a sacrifice, see, when it is actually people that needed them, and many people still do today.
"Sin must be paid for with blood" is a characterization of human nature, not God.
"Vengeance is Mine" is mostly a mature adult's way of prohibiting an adolescent kid from attempting to engage in Righteous Retribution done from ignorance; and our love of the Charles Bronson-esque has hardly abated any, right, ppl are as bloodthirsty as ever.

 

[bbyrd009]

People forget that Jesus Christ himself asked the Father to take the responsibility for the atonement away from him. If people are wondering if there could have been another way, then they needn't look any further than the scripture below to see that the answer to that question is a resounding no.

nice, i would now grasp this in the context of you, needing to die, rather than believing that Christ's death somehow covers you personally, which i do not believe is true at all, but then we of course have the perpetual "faith/works" farce to debate that.

i've already made some false assumptions about "hyper-gracers" i guess, but as i have argued before "pick up your cross and follow" seems to have been replaced by "really, really believe."

 

[bbyrd009]

Why did God do it that way, simple,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Look at the great sacrifice He did for us, and still you have men running around boasting of how great they are. I dont understand why it is that "christians" seem to delite in belittling the wonderful work that Christ did for us.

well, bc of the obvious and blatant counterfeits that lie produces, i guess. Obviously you must have good works, built from faith, and you cannot do without either one. In order to know someone by their fruit, they must have fruit; which of course everyone does have already, even Hgracers.

And that is what we will all be doing today too, producing more works, because you cannot do anything else.

nice point there at Ephesians, imo, nonetheless. There is a counterfeit for good works, that we recognize as "doing the right thing for the wrong reason."

 

[bbyrd009]

but that it is people who needed (to follow) Christ in order to stand in the light, not God Who needed Christ in order to make you acceptable to Him.

...what i meant to bring out with @Job there earlier, iow, who btw didn't do anything...well, out of the ordinary, at least, i mean he did judge, but we generally understand that he was just saying "i think that is the road to hell" and i just blew it up to make a point about confession, because God's forgiveness in Christ will not save you if you justify yourself, which is mostly what we all do

 

[Dcopymope]

nice, i would now grasp this in the context of you, needing to die, rather than believing that Christ's death somehow covers you personally, which i do not believe is true at all, but then we of course have the perpetual "faith/works" farce to debate that.

No, I'm not the one claiming that Jesus Christ's sacrifice was Gods act of "unconditional love". There are still conditions that must be met in order for your sins to actually be atoned for. When James stated that "show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works", such versus have been twisted by legalists to tie the noose of the old covenant around our necks, to be circumcised and keep the law, of which James stated he gave no such commandment in Acts 15:24. So it is your faith that justifies your works, not vice versa.

 

[bbyrd009]

There are still conditions that must be met in order for your sins to actually be atoned for.

if you hope to stand in the light, certainly. But the Light is not affected in any way by this imo. It is simply your best friend, or your worst enemy iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

I always found the word "aforetime" here rather interesting.

hmm, i see a reflection here of "How long, oh Lord, must we wait" by the saints under the altar. Iow there is forgiveness for past deeds done in ignorance, but there is also the pov of those sinned against to consider. Of course Joan of Arc or Stephen are not asking "how long," as they have forgiven already--the "how long must we wait" thing is thus revealed as a false perspective imo.

(but i note that i went a diff direction here from what you intimated, surely there are other good perspectives to be derived from that "aforetime" also)

 

[Miss Hepburn]

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@bbyrd009
@Miss Hepburn

Please explain to me why you believe that the sacrifice of Christ was unnecessary?

Fair question.
Many reasons. But, first,
-one would have to believe in the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden.
I don't.
-One would have to believe the Creator of the Universe, God, the brilliant Father Almighty, was some sort of Omnipresent all knowing Spiritual Being tyrant that thought in immature, jealous, angry, barbaric human ways.
I don't.
- without believing in the Garden story...man remains the beloved creation/son..pure, loved of the Father, even with all his mistakes.
-there is no need of some ostentatious, bloody torture

Anyone that has ever had a child or been in love knows unconditional love and forgiveness...
in fact....they know the place where there is no such thing as forgiveness, because the
wisdom love brings puts you in an enlightened, awakened state where there is never
an offense taken from the start. ( At least, I hope everyone has exp'd that place,geeze...)
And this is just from a little human...just think
how God does not think as the everyday
deluded human does.

There was no need for a 'savior' because there was nothing to be saved from...
But throughout time...God sent masters and teachers to remind the deluded lot of us...
where Home was, who we were...what we were a part of and why we were here.
Bread crumbs left by the Masters.

Now, did humanity slip into a sacrificial, blood-letting savage state of concepts so deeply that ONLY thinking a murder for their sake could awaken them
to their true state?
Even tho, God never lost sight of them, arms were always open,
they were always welcome to be in that state of Realization of the Kingdom?
It was only their forgetfulness of their True Selves and then, their made up primitive stories of some scary God that needed to be appeased because their was an earthquake rumbling?
Thus,'' Oooo, lets' kill lamb and make happy the mean God in Sky...''

Besides, I know God...and He is only love.

Now did He let the whole event happen...letting cause and effect take it's course in that
volatile political, savage climate? Sure,
because Men at that time believed in this 'cr*p'...
so maybe their hearts would open to Him...His Heart
that was always open from the get-go.

But, was it actually needed....no way....Did Jesus need someone to die
for him to be exalted to such a Consciousness?
No, he just knew God for what He was, remaining in the original state of knowing, aka Perfect Awareness...
which WE had forgotten. (and made up stories...like throwing virgins into volcanoes...)

 

[bbyrd009]

All I am saying is God could have done it other ways if He wanted to.

so, i can agree with you here if the "other ways" are essentially what the Good Samaritan defines, even if he would say "Jesus? Never heard of him, and if he is Jewish, not interested in hearing about him." or iow, following another Name imo, "Love your neighbor." The Vineyard Owner with Two Sons is another reflection of this i guess. 1 John 3:7 is another, Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

 

[bbyrd009]

but to suggest that God could have done still it other ways, that we could not even fathom? hmm, imo this might be ignoring our part in the development of the Dispensations; these change because it is we who are changing. Suggesting that the elements are in place because of the same mechanism, our perceptions. i think. Obviously we are...our thinking, our group-think, is evolving, right

 

[bbyrd009]

-one would have to believe in the story of the Fall of Man in the Garden.
I don't.

that is a pretty warped perception lol huh. Not even supported by Scripture imo. Derives from the doctrine of Original Sin i think

 

[bbyrd009]

- without believing in the Garden story...man remains the beloved creation/son..pure, loved of the Father, even with all his mistakes.

i suggest that this may easily be read right from the story, with different eyes. Banishment from the Garden becomes not a punishment, but a manifestation of man's new state. Your eyes are opened now, so you can't be "in the garden" any more, the first manifests the second, regardless of the "God did it" language, which is being misunderstood as "God specifically put His finger out toward you" rather than "God set it up this way." the same misunderstanding as at "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" iow lol, God did not have to "do" anything to harden Pharaoh's heart. Surely parenting provides similar examples, at least i woulda thought