Co- Redemptrix

[Richard_oti]

doesn't mean they never sinned either, though. i am more inclined to believe that they just changed their minds

No it doesn't, just as with Caleb. However, if one changes their mind, and therefore the actions follow, what shall be the result?

Moses is recorded as the most humble [meek] of men in his day. Yet Moses tasted "death", and did not enter the "Promised Land" for his actions at Meribah.

Enoch and Elijah, did not taste of "death". For the wages of sin is "death".

 

[Richard_oti]

this does not stand in the face of abundant other Scripture, assuring us that none are perfect, and all have sinned, and that Christ is unique, etc

And that there are none that seek. Christ is unique, as he is the very Son of YHVH. Who existed from before the foundation of the world. Can any other lay claim to that? Also see Matthew 21:33-41.

Yet, is Christ truly unique? You mentioned "mythology" a while back. How many "fables" are there that have similarities yet predate Jesus.

I mean come on, the virgin birth of a divine son, is that truly unique? There are a plethora of such, which according to Origen, Christ is true, and all the others are merely "fables". A difference of "perspective(s)".

Is the NT completely untainted, without redaction. Or was it handled by the "correctors". Something about the pen of the scribes comes to mind. Which, was done in times of old so to speak. Are you fully assured that such has not occurred more than once in history.

 

[Richard_oti]

Mary, laying down her life, now? Where is this from?
and you are not clear on what "that reason" is here, at least to me, sorry

Nothing to be sorry about. IOW: Was Mary crucified? Did she shed her blood for the people so to speak.

 

[Richard_oti]

"Co-redemptrix?" think i'll stick with my pov until further notice, too, ty

Not my nor your thread title. I am merely here off toe-pic as is usual for me. So now the title of a thread makes them equal? According to the OP, we are called to do likewise. So was it truly speaking of Mary alone, or of the "Bride" as a whole?

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any among you may go astray from the truth, and any one may turn him back, 20 let him know that he who did turn back a sinner from the straying of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Any reminiscence of Ezekiel in the above?

 

[Richard_oti]

but Scripture assures us they did sin, in many places, so then what?

Just as it is written that there are none righteous, it is also written there are none that seek. So now what, since it is written there are none that seek, and in so that Scripture may not be broken, there must be none that seek.

Again, that is one of the problems of anything that is all inclusive. Of which, you yourself clearly demonstrate that you are willing to exclude, when you exclude Christ from any all inclusive statement. If there are none that seek, then that must also by default include all of us as well as yourself. Yet we both know, that you indeed are seeking.

... many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

But of course, as you yourself admit, like in the above, what are we truly "seeking" in some of that running to and fro.

 

[Richard_oti]

ergo, Caleb changed his mind, not "Caleb was born sinless," at least imo

Yet, when there is no law, sin is not imputed. Therefore perhaps Caleb did not need to change his mind.

But then we fall back to the flood. Without some form of "law", what justifies the annihilation of all but 8. And even then, it is clear, that there was a distinction between the clean and the unclean.

Which as clearly given later:

Lev 10:10 and that ye may make a distinction between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean;

Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the common, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


And yet:

Eze 22:26 Her priests have done violence to my law, and have profaned my holy things: they have made no distinction between the holy and the common, neither have they caused men to discern between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Is the latter there an event unique to Israel of old.

 

[Richard_oti]

none, i would not attribute any sin to him, nor Mary, at that point in their walk.

Thus, you attribute them as righteous. Which according to Jesus, were not those he came to call.

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous:

And again, for one filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb ...

 

[Richard_oti]

well, the Word does that i guess, and i am not interested in condemning any Catholics, see, but neither do i discuss doctrine with them either, as my doctrine derives from Spirit, led by Scripture, and Catholics demonstrate a different understanding there, that i do not have to reap from, so have no desire to comment on, which would only offend.

So you "sow" in a segregated manner. Could that not be reckoned as "partiality"? And yes, I am merely playing the DA. Not accusing you.

i am not ever going to agree doctrinally with someone convinced that they should trust in a king and confess in the dark to ppl called father, because these deny Scripture as i understand it. Might i be in error somewhere? Certainly, so i keep an open mind even there, and judge by the fruit, wherein Catholics are put in an even worse light! imo. Or at least Roman Catholicism. So i don't judge an individual Catholic, but neither do i wish to mix cultures with them

IOW: Don't go unto the Samarians? But only the lost of "Israel" as perceived.

 

[Richard_oti]

oh, sure, millions more, all wanting to reach God their way, cloistering, or conquering, or you name it, sure.
Anything but picking up their cross, seems to me

We perhaps have different backgrounds. I spent very little time in mainstream "Christianity". However, I spent many a long a year amoung those of the "cults". Not what most think of either such as SDA, LDS, JW, etc.. I don't even consider such as those as "cults". Unless we wish to define all as "cult(s)".

Thus perhaps, I may have encountered a couple / few more. Many that go way beyond the "normies".

However, perhaps we would need to define what does it really mean "to pick your cross and follow". What does it mean to you?

For it obviously isn't go buy two 6x6 timbers, affix them together and drag them around.

 

[bbyrd009]

However, if one changes their mind, and therefore the actions follow, what shall be the result?

amen!

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you fully assured that such has not occurred more than once in history.

me? regardless of my opinion, how might one advance this past Scripture, i would say is the point.

 

[Stranger]

How many times do you want me to answer your questions? This is your tired modus operandi, once again - making simplistic, false statements, demanding answers, and then, after dismissing all answers , continuing to demand answers that support your one track minded falsehoods.

I am not your scripture monkey, Strange. If you are really interested in anything more than your own belligerence, scroll back - if not, don’t.

Once would be enough.

hmmm.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, Mary did not give birth to God. Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ.

Stranger

And therein lies your contradiction . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, when you say it like that..
But I happen to believe that Jesus was indeed God's seed..but also had the humanity of Mary while He walked here. To me, He had to have the potential to sin, as she did, as we all do....the GREAT salvation hangs on the truth that Adam sinned and the Last Perfect Adam overcame sin....for us all.
To be truthful BOL, most of these kind of discussions I don't understand,
and I wouldn't even dare to say 'who has sinned'...not my business...
I do have to take on board @bbyrd009 argument that if Mary was perfect before birthing Jesus , then she must have been the only one ever!
Jesus came to take our punishment inherited through Adam....Jesus came to take that punishment for us all...including Mary.
If Mary could attain the perfection that no one ever had, not even John The Baptist..no one...they bbyrd009 has a good point...why on earth Did God send ( Come in ) Jesus!! ?

I have no idea...as I say, most of it goes over my head, too complicated for me to work out.

Fair enough.

The one thing none of you are understanding is that we're not saying that Mary was sinless by her OWN doing. She needed a savior indeed - and that was GOD (Luke 1:47). Rev. 13:8 tell us that the Lamb was slain "before the foundations of the world." This means that the sacrifice of Jesus is ETERNAL.
God is outside of time (2 Pet. 3:8) so He can apply salvation to WHOMEVER He wishes - WHENEVER He wishes.

As I stated before - ALL of us fall into the mud of sin and are offered the chance to be pulled out by God's grace.
Mary was simply pulled out before she could fall in.

 

[Stranger]

And therein lies your contradiction . . .

Why is it a contradiction? Did God exist before the birth of Jesus? Did the Son exist before the birth of Jesus?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Fair enough.

The one thing none of you are understanding is that we're not saying that Mary was sinless by her OWN doing. She needed a savior indeed - and that was GOD (Luke 1:47). Rev. 13:8 tell us that the Lamb was slain "before the foundations of the world." This means that the sacrifice of Jesus is ETERNAL.
God is outside of time (2 Pet. 3:8) so He can apply salvation to WHOMEVER He wishes - WHENEVER He wishes.

As I stated before - ALL of us fall into the mud of sin and are offered the chance to be pulled out by God's grace.
Mary was simply pulled out before she could fall in.

What a bunch of bs. You're just making it up as you go. If Mary was without sin, she didn't need a Saviour.

God doesn't apply salvation where it is not needed. Where did you dream that up?

Yes, all of us are full of sin...including Mary.

'Mary was simply pulled out before she could fall in'?....what a dream...what a lie.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

What a bunch of bs. You're just making it up as you go. If Mary was without sin, she didn't need a Saviour.
God doesn't apply salvation where it is not needed. Where did you dream that up?
Yes, all of us are full of sin...including Mary.

'Mary was simply pulled out before she could fall in'?....what a dream...what a lie.

Stranger

This is a crock.

If Mary was without sin - she absolutely needed a Savior because she didn't reach this state on her own.
She was Kecharitomene because of GOD - not by her own power.

And God can do WHATEVER He wills - to WHOMEVER He desires - your impotent objections notwithstanding . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why is it a contradiction? Did God exist before the birth of Jesus? Did the Son exist before the birth of Jesus?

Stranger

It's a contradiction because you claim to acknowledge that Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Him - but she didn't give birth to God.

I didn't say that Mary created Him - any more than YOUR mother created YOU,
She gave BIRTH to Him, who is God - whether you like it or not.

 

[Stranger]

This is a crock.

If Mary was without sin - she absolutely needed a Savior because she didn't reach this state on her own.
She was Kecharitomene because of GOD - not by her own power.

And God can do WHATEVER He wills - to WHOMEVER He desires - your impotent objections notwithstanding . . .

God does in accordance with His righteous character. God cannot allow one into heaven who is not saved by Jesus Christ.

God can do what He wills and desires. But he doesn't do all that you will Him to do. And this story of saving Mary before she fell, is just made up by you and Romanism to make her appear sinless. A made up story along with made up 'kecharitomene'.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

It's a contradiction because you claim to acknowledge that Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Him - but she didn't give birth to God.

I didn't say that Mary created Him - any more than YOUR mother created YOU,
She gave BIRTH to Him, who is God - whether you like it or not.

That is not a contradiction. That is correct.

I didn't say you said Mary created Him. You are wrong in saying Mary is the mother of God. She is not.

Did God exist before the birth of Jesus? Did the Son exist before the birth of Jesus? Did the Son exist as a Man before the virgin birth?

Stranger