Why the fall had to occur

[bbyrd009]

Than i guess the previous statement was an error???

i think Dc is using some terms diff than we are, maybe, something like that

 

[ScottA]

What is glorious about throwing your children off a cliff just so you can save them?

This is a good point, and one to be understood about the creation. God did not throw His children off a cliff (in reality), but only His "image" of them.

 

[Dcopymope]

This is a good point, and one to be understood about the creation. God did not throw His children off a cliff (in reality), but only His "image" of them.

Which is not true at all, because the bible plainly states in Genesis 9:6 and James 3: 8-9 that humanity even in its fallen state are still the image bearers of God. So this argument concerning our likeness to God fails right of out the gates.

 

[aspen]

Scott, your posts disturb me. You seem like an intelligent person who can articulate your theology well enough for me to start taking you seriously - than the Gnosticism creeps in.....

Why Scott, why??

 

[ScottA]

Which is not true at all, because the bible plainly states in Genesis 9:6 and James 3: 8-9 that humanity even in its fallen state are still the image bearers of God. So this argument concerning our likeness to God fails right of out the gates.

No. You apparently don't even hear yourself saying we are bear the image of God. But what is an image - the real thing, or just an image? God, has given the answer. Why do you not believe Him?

 

[ScottA]

Scott, your posts disturb me. You seem like an intelligent person who can articulate your theology well enough for me to start taking you seriously - than the Gnosticism creeps in.....

Why Scott, why??

I would have to look up what Gnosticism is - so it's not that.

If God says He created us in His image, does that not tell you we are a mere image, that in order to actually be "living" we must be born of His spirit? Can an "image" therefore, be alive? No. What then, has God thrown off a cliff - a Godachrome "image?"

What is crazy...is that He has done such a great job of producing us in image form, that we think we are alive...when He says we are not. And when I argue for, or state the truth as He has said it...I am not believed any more than He is.

 

[Dcopymope]

No. You apparently don't even hear yourself saying we are bear the image of God. But what is an image - the real thing, or just an image? God, has given the answer. Why do you not believe Him?

Yes, I do believe God's answer when he says we are made after his likeness. Its the real thing 100%, except in its fallen state. When God said we are made in his likeness, he meant exactly what he said, so why don't YOU believe him? We have eye witness testimony of what he looked like straight from the mouth of one of his prophets.

(Ezekiel 1:26-28) "¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. {27} And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. {28} As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."

 

[ScottA]

Yes, I do believe God's answer when he says we are made after his likeness. Its the real thing 100%, except in its fallen state. When God said we are made in his likeness, he meant exactly what he said, so why don't YOU believe him? We have eye witness testimony of what he looked like straight from the mouth of one of his prophets.

You have passed over the word "image" and refer only to "likeness", which is only an adjective of "image." By that definition, you must take away from the word of God.

So, take your pick:

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. image
   1. images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
      
      
   2. image, likeness (of resemblance)
      
      
   3. mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

...But, why squabble over what is obvious? What "image" is "real" and not just paper or light, or even flesh - which is not actually as God is?

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 

[Dcopymope]

You have passed over the word "image" and refer only to "likeness", which is only an adjective of "image." By that definition, you must take away from the word of God.

So, take your pick:

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. image
   1. images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
      
      
   2. image, likeness (of resemblance)
      
      
   3. mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

...But, why squabble over what is obvious? What "image" is "real" and not just paper or light, or even flesh - which is not actually as God is?

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

You quote 1 John 3:2 as if that bolsters your argument in any way. Yes, we shall see him as he is, just like Ezekiel saw him as he really is in the form of a vision, and he quite plainly stated he had the appearance of a man. There is no way you can weasel your way around his testimony with your silly semantics, as you dismiss it and pretend to know better than Gods prophet. Who exactly do you think you are? You have convinced yourself that you know exactly what a spirit is and what exactly a spirit is supposed to look like, when no one knows except a select few who saw it, as revealed to them by God himself. I'll believe Gods word over you thank you very much.

 

[ScottA]

You quote 1 John 3:2 as if that bolsters your argument in any way. Yes, we shall see him as he is, just like Ezekiel saw him as he really is in the form of a vision, and he quite plainly stated he had the appearance of a man. There is no way you can weasel your way around his testimony with your silly semantics, as you dismiss it and pretend to know better than Gods prophet. Who exactly do you think you are? You have convinced yourself that you know exactly what a spirit is and what exactly a spirit is supposed to look like, when no one knows except a select few who saw it, as revealed to them by God himself. I'll believe Gods word over you thank you very much.

Again, you are not even listening to yourself. A "vision"...is an "image" also, a manifestation.

But I do not think I am anything, but I know just as Ezekiel knew...by the same spirit. I quoted John, because he referred to the spirit by which I am witnessing to you also.

 

[Dcopymope]

Again, you are not even listening to yourself. A "vision"...is an "image" also, a manifestation.

But I do not think I am anything, but I know just as Ezekiel knew...by the same spirit. I quoted John, because he referred to the spirit by which I am witnessing to you also.

........You are contradicting the vision of a prophet of God of what and who he saw on the throne, so therefore, you are bearing false witness, that's my 'witness' to you.

 

[aspen]

I would have to look up what Gnosticism is - so it's not that.

If God says He created us in His image, does that not tell you we are a mere image, that in order to actually be "living" we must be born of His spirit? Can an "image" therefore, be alive? No. What then, has God thrown off a cliff - a Godachrome "image?"

What is crazy...is that He has done such a great job of producing us in image form, that we think we are alive...when He says we are not. And when I argue for, or state the truth as He has said it...I am not believed any more than He is.

Please do look up Gnosticism it really is an insidious heresy and can provide insight for all us in the ways we can wander off the narrow path.

 

[Dcopymope]

Please do look up Gnosticism it really is an insidious heresy and can provide insight for all us in the ways we can wander off the narrow path.

Ezekiel: And I looked, and saw he that sat on the throne, who had the appearance of a man.

ScottA: OOHHH BUT MY DICTIONARIES SAY.......

 

[ScottA]

........You are contradicting the vision of a prophet of God of what and who he saw on the throne, so therefore, you are bearing false witness, that's my 'witness' to you.

Hmmm...there is no reasoning with you I see. If a vision is not an image, then I would be contradicting the prophet, but no, I have said they are the same, and it is you who say they are different. It is you who contradicts the prophet and in the same breath accuse me. Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive.

 

[Dcopymope]

Hmmm...there is no reasoning with you I see. If a vision is not an image, then I would be contradicting the prophet, but no, I have said they are the same, and it is you who say they are different. It is you who contradicts the prophet and in the same breath accuse me. Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive.

You opened the can of worms questioning my faith in Gods word, of whether or not I believed. I quoted the scripture plainly backing up the words "let us make man in our image, after our likeness", and you do the predictable, what you always do, instead of letting the word speak for itself. For the record, I'm pretty sure our likeness in God isn't necessarily referring to the flesh, but to that immaterial component called soul. However, it is quite clear that he has a form, or body that is similar in appearance to that of a man, which is all I need to know. It tells me that we being his image bearers is a literal statement. I don't have to start splitting hairs between words, of what "image" means, or what "vision" means, or what "spirit" actually is, because the word is all I need.

 

[ScottA]

Please do look up Gnosticism it really is an insidious heresy and can provide insight for all us in the ways we can wander off the narrow path.

Nice try, but it is from that narrow path which I call out. But you have hear none of it.

Will you also tell me that a vision is not an image, and seal your testimony for that which is seen against what is unseen?

 

[ScottA]

You opened the can of worms questioning my faith in Gods word, of whether or not I believed. I quoted the scripture plainly backing up the words "let us make man in our image, after our likeness", and you do the predictable, what you always do, instead of letting the word speak for itself. For the record, I'm pretty sure our likeness in God isn't necessarily referring to the flesh, but to that immaterial component called soul. However, it is quite clear that he has a form, or body that is similar in appearance to that of a man, which is all I need to know. It tells me that we being his image bearers is a literal statement. I don't have to start splitting hairs between words, of what "image" means, or what "vision" means, or what "spirit" actually is, because the word is all I need.

I have quoted you, and now you change your story...and it is obvious why.

And for the record, you quoted "likeness" against my use of "image", as if they were not both the word of God and the scriptural proof of what I have been telling you. Then, you quoted "vision" also, as if it too were not the same, further confirming what I have been telling you. But those are words from God, and now you go on to define their very simple meaning in your own way, because you do not believe that God has been clear according to your understanding, and He needs you to elaborate for Him. There is no splitting of hairs here, just you waffling and attempting to correct God. Again, doing so, while accusing me of being wrong because I have stuck to just what is written, and you don't want to hear it.

 

[Dcopymope]

because you do not believe that God has been clear according to your understanding, and He needs you to elaborate for Him.

The only one elaborating for God is you. I wasn't the one that had to break out a dictionary to tell me what the Bible already plainly stated. I quoted the scripture, and YOU were the one that gave YOUR understanding of it, not me. Deflection much???

 

[ScottA]

The only one elaborating for God is you. I wasn't the one that had to break out a dictionary to tell me what the Bible already plainly stated. I quoted the scripture, and YOU were the one that gave YOUR understanding of it, not me. Deflection much???

Projection much?

Do I have to correct you on everything? Apparently so.

But, I digress. We have both said our piece...and God will bring the truth to light.

 

[aspen]

Nice try, but it is from that narrow path which I call out. But you have hear none of it.

Will you also tell me that a vision is not an image, and seal your testimony for that which is seen against what is unseen?

Yeah, you can lead a horse....

I would be happy to address your post, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

It looks like you are hung up on an ancient Aramaic word translated as ‘image’ as if your life depends on it.......unfortunately for you, even if the English word correctly communicated the exact, microscopic meaning of the Aramaic, we still use the word ‘image’ more broadly than you want to use it to support your gnostic understanding of the creation of humanity.

I was being sincere in my desire to understand you, Scott. Maybe its just not going to happen.