What are we really dealing with here?

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bbyrd009

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As we see the Great Storm approaching we need all the support we can get from one another, every enticement, every admonishment, every encouragement possible, for dark times are ahead. Although it is our privilege to preach the glad tidings of the kingdom to come we would be amiss in our duties as Watchmen were we not likewise to warn of the impending storm coming.
ah well then, in this vein let me assure you that your worst fears will come upon you--i can Quote some if you like for that--and i wish you the best of luck with your Great Storm, ok. That you might notice pretty much the whole world believes
but likewise from their reproofs and corrections when ever we stray from the way, from the truth.
 

Helen

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Of course there is a collective evil system of which Satan is the author and energizer of. In Scripture it is called the 'Mystery of iniquity'. (2 Thess. 2:7)

Satan must imitate as he cannot create. He wants to be 'like' God. Therefore he will construct his system to imitate what God is doing. So, just as God has His Man, Jesus Christ, who is His seed, so the serpent will have his man, his seed, the anti-Christ. Just as Jesus has a bride, so satan has a great whore. Just as Jesus had a John the Baptist, so satan has the false prophet. etc. etc.

The Jews are not looking for a system concerning their Messiah to come. They are looking for a man. In order for the deception to work, satan must provide a man. And he will. (2 Thess. 2:8-12)

Stranger

Thank you.
That is indeed 'food for thought'...
I'm going to read it again and "chew" on it....thanks
 

amadeus

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Studying about the Beast gets us nowhere spiritually?

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:"
Revelation 1:3 KJV

I'm sure you'll agree none of us can afford to miss out on any blessing of God, right?
Her @"ByGrace" reference I believe was to this place in scripture:

"But seek ye first 1) the kingdom of God, and 2) his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

If we really seriously seek the two things mentioned first, will not God take care of everything else that is needed...?

This is not to say that a person should not study the scriptures, but not everyone is such a good student and who among us understands all of the details? Is our salvation really dependent upon our scriptural knowledge? I think not.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

 
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Naomi25

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I think it is more than apathy Naomi. It is all out apostasy. For example. The number of Protestant churches that have joined in signing various declarations of unity with Rome, such as the Joint Declaration of Justification by Faith between the Lutherans and Catholics in 1999....the "Declaration on the Way--Church, Ministry, and Eucharist", more recently, are two of many such documents being bandied about. This latest document is a further capitulation by Lutherans regarding the truth of the gospel.
Here are some examples of the fallacious so-called unity that is supposedly being negotiated...what they are as you will notice, is a complete turn-around from Reformation theology, soteriology, and several other "ologies". Not all Lutherans have signed on, but other faiths have signed similar documents with Rome, such as the Anglicans and the modern church in Europe that descended from Jan Huss.
In the first section, Agreements on the Church, it reads:
4. Lutherans and Catholics agree that the church is in every age apostolic because it is founded on the apostles' witness to the gospel, and it continuously professes the apostolic and evangelical faith while living by mandated practices handed on from the apostles. Thus we recognize both in our ecclesial communities the attribute of apostolicity grounded in their ongoing continuity in the apostolic faith, teaching, and practices. (p22).
9. Catholics and Lutherans agree that the church on earth is indefectible, because it is and will be preserved by the Holy Spirit in all aspects essential for salvation.
(The definition of indefectible is flawless...free of fault or decay.) Seriously? Lutherans agreed to this? Luther will be having apoplexy in his grave.
On Authority of Ministry it reads:
20. Catholics and Lutherans also agree that the office of ministry stands over against the community as well as within it and thus is called to exercise authority over the community. (This is medaeval Papacy confirmed. The dark ages and the council of Trent affirmed).
On Agreements on the Eucharist it reads:
Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord's supper, Jesus Christ Himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and He is present in His entirety, as Son of God and as a human being. What can I say?

Finally, after dealing with some of the more obvious compromises and capitulation of the Lutheran church, here is an outright lie, from section 4 under the heading of Church.
Drawing on the writings of Luther on the means of grace and marks of the church and on VaticanII regarding tradition, the church, and ecumenism, Lutherans and Catholics today "mutually recognize, at a fundamental level, the presence of apostolicity in our traditions". Luther contributed to this insight "when he insisted that a manifold Christian substance must be recognized in the Roman Catholic Church", for he perceived there the true holy scriptures, true baptism, the true sacrament of the altar, the true keys for the frgiveness of sins, the true office of proclamation, AND THE TRUE CATECHISM".

NOW LET ME QUOTE LUTHER.
..."nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinance increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God. All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled in the Papal tyranny. (Martin Luther 'First Principles' pp196-197).

How can there be any harmony between what Luther actually wrote, and what is being promulgated in the fraudulent document above?
How can any true Christian align himself with Antichrist and remain true to the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

Well...let's be perfectly open here. Many of the Protestant faiths of old have apostatized in these days. Allowing homosexual pastors to teach the flock is a blatant disregard for scripture and the truth it teaches.
I think they mean well. And before you get angry at that, listen (because I'm not agreeing with them!)... There are a number of things we all do agree with the RCC about. Jesus is the Son of God, the second member of the Trinity, the only way to salvation. Those are some really big points of agreement right there...some would say the essentials.
I think those signing agreements with the RCC are probably trying, like those who put gay pastors up the front, are trying to let love and harmony be their guiding star. And everyone would say "what's wrong with that? Isn't God love?"
The problem I see with it is, if love isn't steered by God's truth, then that love becomes empty and looses it's power to change and transform. And change and transform is the whole point of why Christ came. To save, change and transform. You can never have just one, you must have all three.
So...do I think it's right for Protestants and Catholics to sign things that they agree and hold hands? No...not really...because we don't agree, and any agreement on those outside issues is probably only in an effort of ecumenical harmony. But there is a reason we are divided...a good, theological reason, at present. What we need to do is use those essentials we do have in common to dialogue peacefully to try and come to the truth of scripture. Not the truth of the Pope, or the truth of Luther. The truth of God. Because he's given it to us in his word...shouldn't that matter?
 

Harvest 1874

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Her @"ByGrace" reference I believe was to this place in scripture:

"But seek ye first 1) the kingdom of God, and 2) his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

If we really seriously seek the two things mentioned first, will not God take care of everything else that is needed...?

This is not to say that a person should not study the scriptures, but not everyone is such a good student and who among us understands all of the details? Is our salvation really dependent upon our scriptural knowledge? I think not.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

How long, you simpletons, will you insist on being simpleminded? How long will you mockers relish your mocking? How long will you fools hate knowledge?” (Prov 1:22 New Living Translation)

The three categories are in an ascending order of wrong: simple ones, scorners, and fools. The fool is the worst category. The simple one does not want knowledge, (chooses to live in ignorance), the scorner mocks knowledge (because of his own lack of understanding), but the fool hates knowledge. Each category gets bolder and more active. In fact, the fool actively opposes truth.”
 
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Naomi25

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anti Christ are imho obviously those who walk no more with Him and are beasts 666 as clearly pointed out at Jn 666 - they have refused to put on Christ and divinity as demanded by Jesus[Jn 6:53-56] - twinc

I think there are many 'antichirst' (little a)...always have been, always will be. There will always be those who oppose God and his Christ. But I do think scripture gives evidence for a final one, a final appearance of that spirit of hate and rebellion against God. Who knows if it will be a man, or a government. But it will hate God and those who love him, and want to torment us and kill us. We see already in other countries how Christians are hated and persecuted, for nothing more than loving God. And while we still live blessed lives here, even now we begin to see some of that irrational hatred seeping in. I'm thinking it will get a lot worse.
 

Harvest 1874

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I think there are many 'antichirst' (little a)...always have been, always will be. There will always be those who oppose God and his Christ. But I do think scripture gives evidence for a final one, a final appearance of that spirit of hate and rebellion against God. Who knows if it will be a man, or a government. But it will hate God and those who love him, and want to torment us and kill us. We see already in other countries how Christians are hated and persecuted, for nothing more than loving God. And while we still live blessed lives here, even now we begin to see some of that irrational hatred seeping in. I'm thinking it will get a lot worse.

It has already been pointed out that the true antichrist is a SYSTEM of error (the apostate church), it is NOT an individual, this system has already made its appearance, but many refused to acknowledge who it is, still falling for Papacy's ploy to detract from the truth.

This elaborate plan of subterfuge was devised long ago.

THE PAPAL COUNTER ATTACK

Soon after the Reformers broke their ties with Rome, Papacy saw that it must counteract its identification as Antichrist—or stand condemned.

Jesuit scholarship rallied to the cause by providing alternatives to the definition of Antichrist. The most successful tack was taken by Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Spain, founder of the Futurist system of prophetic interpretation. Ribera proposed that Antichrist would appear in the distant future (our day), and stated: Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.” Amazingly, this erroneous teaching has become the most popular view in our day, even with members of Protestant Churches!

You my dear sister are falling for this deception.
 

Naomi25

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guess it behooves one then to be sure what Word is, huh
Ah, bbyrd009 and your one sentence remarks that are vague in the extreme. I wonder if you do it deliberately or if you're just a very succinct thinker!
So...I'm not really sure if you're talki
It has already been pointed out that the true antichrist is a SYSTEM of error (the apostate church), it is NOT an individual, this system has already made its appearance, but many refused to acknowledge who it is, still falling for Papacy's ploy to detract from the truth.

This elaborate plan of subterfuge was devised long ago.

THE PAPAL COUNTER ATTACK

Soon after the Reformers broke their ties with Rome, Papacy saw that it must counteract its identification as Antichrist—or stand condemned.

Jesuit scholarship rallied to the cause by providing alternatives to the definition of Antichrist. The most successful tack was taken by Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Spain, founder of the Futurist system of prophetic interpretation. Ribera proposed that Antichrist would appear in the distant future (our day), and stated: Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.” Amazingly, this erroneous teaching has become the most popular view in our day, even with members of Protestant Churches!

You my dear sister are falling for this deception.

Um...am I worshiping the Pope, or the Roman Catholic 'system'? So...don't think I am deceived.
But....let us take a step back a look at the bible passages that talk about Antichrist.
1 John 2:18: Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:22: Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

John tells us that while many (plural) antichrist have come, there is a (singular) antichrist to come. Then he says that the antichrist is the one who denies the Father and the Son, denies that Jesus is the Christ. As far as I know, the RCC and the Pope do not deny these things.

My point is only this: we do not know, yet, who this final antichrist is. We will know him (or it) when he denies God, denies Jesus and tries to take God's place, demanding to be worshiped. Until we see these signs, judging people and organizations and slanging around rather steep accusations.

Now...could past antichrist spirits have fit various Popes, like we see Luther saying? Sure, maybe. We see the antichrist spirit everywhere in the world. North Korea, Nazi Germany, Communist China under Mao, perhaps some of the Popes who used their power over the people. But both 1 John and 2 Thess 2 suggest that there will be a final, and most dreadful rising of this AC spirit, and I expect it will expand beyond just a country or denomination. It will be worldwide.
 

Phoneman777

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Her @"ByGrace" reference I believe was to this place in scripture:

"But seek ye first 1) the kingdom of God, and 2) his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

If we really seriously seek the two things mentioned first, will not God take care of everything else that is needed...?

This is not to say that a person should not study the scriptures, but not everyone is such a good student and who among us understands all of the details? Is our salvation really dependent upon our scriptural knowledge? I think not.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

I'd like to think that Solomon is referring to non-essential secularism - would the wisest man ever discourage the study of prophecy or any other part of God's inspired Word? Probably not.

Also, it's not right for ByGrace to arbitrarily decide that studying prophecy is outside the realm of seeking the kingdom and then argue so subjectively against the study of it, and seeking it without consulting the only Map that God left as a guide to lead us to it is probably not a good idea, in my opinion.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God' Matthew 4:4 KJV
 

Phoneman777

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Does it need to join up with the Papacy? Or are we still talking about the ultimate end time system/Antichrist here? I suppose, really, the sort of people who use the gospel of Jesus to make money won't really care what banner they stand behind to do it. If the Antichrist turns out to be the, or a Pope, then, yeah, they'll probably climb on board like the leeches they are. But I expect they'd do the same if the Antichrist turns out to be a governmental leader. These sort justify anything...
Prophecy is really simple, but simple things don't appeal to those who crave the excitement of what modern prophecy teachers claim. Here's what John Wesley wrote about the Second Beast of Revelation 13 in 1754:

""He is not yet come, though he cannot" far off. For he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast." _John Wesley, Explanatory Notes upon the New Testament, 1791 edition, vol. 3, p. 299.

Like all Reformers, they understood that the Papacy began to reign in 538 A.D. and simply counting off the oft repeated Biblical duration for the reign of the Antichrist (42 months; 3 1/2 years; 1260 days; time times and half a time), Protestants like Wesley understood that 1798 was the year that would see the end of Papal reign, with the rise of the Second Beast at that time, as well, which history proves did happen. With the description of the Second Beast in mind, if we take a look back in history can we see anywhere around 1798 that a Lamblike "Christian" nation arose out of a sparsely populated "earth" area of the world, as opposed to the other "beasts" nations which the Bible says arose out of the "sea", which is "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues", and grew into a great superpower that would end up speaking "like a dragon" and would have the power to force the rest of the world to follow the First Beast? There'll be an "image to the Beast" set up over here that will resemble the First Beast over there, and you can bet that false preachers will be behind it.
 
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Naomi25

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Prophecy is really simple, but simple things don't appeal to those who crave the excitement of what modern prophecy teachers claim. Here's what John Wesley wrote about the Second Beast of Revelation 13 in 1754:

""He is not yet come, though he cannot" far off. For he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast." _John Wesley, Explanatory Notes upon the New Testament, 1791 edition, vol. 3, p. 299.

Like all Reformers, they understood that the Papacy began to reign in 538 A.D. and simply counting off the oft repeated Biblical duration for the reign of the Antichrist (42 months; 3 1/2 years; 1260 days; time times and half a time), Protestants like Wesley understood that 1798 was the year that would see the end of Papal reign, with the rise of the Second Beast at that time, as well, which history proves did happen. With the description of the Second Beast in mind, if we take a look back in history can we see anywhere around 1798 that a Lamblike "Christian" nation arose out of a sparsely populated "earth" area of the world, as opposed to the other "beasts" nations which the Bible says arose out of the "sea", which is "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues", and grew into a great superpower that would end up speaking "like a dragon" and would have the power to force the rest of the world to follow the First Beast? There'll be an "image to the Beast" set up over here that will resemble the First Beast over there, and you can bet that false preachers will be behind it.


Ok. Pretend like I didn't understand anything you just said....
 
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Stranger

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It has already been pointed out that the true antichrist is a SYSTEM of error (the apostate church), it is NOT an individual, this system has already made its appearance, but many refused to acknowledge who it is, still falling for Papacy's ploy to detract from the truth.

This elaborate plan of subterfuge was devised long ago.

THE PAPAL COUNTER ATTACK

Soon after the Reformers broke their ties with Rome, Papacy saw that it must counteract its identification as Antichrist—or stand condemned.

Jesuit scholarship rallied to the cause by providing alternatives to the definition of Antichrist. The most successful tack was taken by Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Spain, founder of the Futurist system of prophetic interpretation. Ribera proposed that Antichrist would appear in the distant future (our day), and stated: Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.” Amazingly, this erroneous teaching has become the most popular view in our day, even with members of Protestant Churches!

You my dear sister are falling for this deception.

You say antichrist is only a system and not an individual. That is not true as I have pointed out in post #52. Of course, just because I pointed it out doesn't make it so, but I believe Scripture is clear that the antichrist will be a person.

(John 5:43) "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

He is the 'man of sin' in (2 Thess. 2:3-4) "...and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

That there is a system of evil and antichrist is correct. But that system of evil wants to produce a man, a false Christ, a false Messiah.

Though there is much wrong in the Roman Church, as there is in the Protestant Chruches, you are mistaken to identify the Roman Church as an antichristian system. See your post #23. It is not. It has always been faithful as to Who Christ is. And it is this that determines the antichrist, either the system or the man.

(1 John 2:22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(1 John 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heaerd that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The Roman Church has never denied who Christ is. Thay are not antichrist.

Stranger
 
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tabletalk

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You say antichrist is only a system and not an individual. That is not true as I have pointed out in post #52. Of course, just because I pointed it out doesn't make it so, but I believe Scripture is clear that the antichrist will be a person.

(John 5:43) "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

He is the 'man of sin' in (2 Thess. 2:3-4) "...and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

That there is a system of evil and antichrist is correct. But that system of evil wants to produce a man, a false Christ, a false Messiah.

Though there is much wrong in the Roman Church, as there is in the Protestant Chruches, you are mistaken to identify the Roman Church as an antichristian system. See your post #23. It is not. It has always been faithful as to Who Christ is. And it is this that determines the antichrist, either the system or the man.

(1 John 2:22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(1 John 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heaerd that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The Roman Church has never denied who Christ is. Thay are not antichrist.

Stranger


You said: "The Roman Church has never denied who Christ is." "It has always been faithful as to Who Christ is."

I have no clue whether the Catholic Church is antichrist.
But, it continuously denies 'who Christ is' at every Mass: they worship a piece of bread and some wine. That is not Christ.

 
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Stranger

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You said: "The Roman Church has never denied who Christ is." "It has always been faithful as to Who Christ is."

I have no clue whether the Catholic Church is antichrist.
But, it continuously denies 'who Christ is' at every Mass: they worship a piece of bread and some wine. That is not Christ.

If you want to attribute 'antichristian' labels on every group of believers who in some doctrinal area you disagree with, then all are antichrsitian,.

The Roman Church does not deny the Person of Jesus Christ as God the Son. See again (1 John 2:22) and (1 John 4:3).

Stranger
 

twinc

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If you want to attribute 'antichristian' labels on every group of believers who in some doctrinal area you disagree with, then all are antichrsitian,.

The Roman Church does not deny the Person of Jesus Christ as God the Son. See again (1 John 2:22) and (1 John 4:3).

Stranger
If you want to attribute 'antichristian' labels on every group of believers who in some doctrinal area you disagree with, then all are antichrsitian,.

The Roman Church does not deny the Person of Jesus Christ as God the Son. See again (1 John 2:22) and (1 John 4:3).

Stranger


I repeat anti Christ is obviously those who walk no more with Him[Jn 666]and refuse to put on Christ/divinity but prefer to remain human beasts[Jn 6:53-54] - twinc
 

Stranger

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I repeat anti Christ is obviously those who walk no more with Him[Jn 666]and refuse to put on Christ/divinity but prefer to remain human beasts[Jn 6:53-54] - twinc

You can repeat all you want. But Scripture, the verses you use, is not saying that. See (1 John 2:22) and (1 John 4:3).

Stranger
 

twinc

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imho it goes without saying that to walk no more with Christ is anti Christ and to refuse to accept to put on Christ is to remain a human beast - the refusal is also to be anti - btw it matters not how you misinterpret John it cannot be other than what Christ says imho - lest we forget - twinc
 
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APAK

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When the Bible speaks of false teachings and the spirit of the anti-Christ, they mean the teachings of false leaders and modern prophets, and many preachers, priests, pastors, ministers, deacons, and to the Sunday or Saturday morning quarter-back lay persons espousing their slant on the truth, even marketed through their own web sites or even TV shows.

False teachings and the spirit of anti-Christ began after Christ’s death and has never stopped. It was already in the works and planned by the evil one.

I don’t think they took a break or stopped completely, hundreds of years later. I do believe though at least 50 percent of developing and maturing at least a false Christ was completed by that time. I do believe it has reached a point today where the activity of the spirit of antichrist has done more that 95 % of its damage. Any further changes are just cosmetic, not drastic changes. The irreversible transformation to a different type and meaning of Christ has already occurred today.

So, if we use this logic and argument today, how can a ‘person’ called ‘the antichrist’ be such a surprise to the believer? It may not be a person at all. It may be a false system of collective lies, or a combo of both.

Whether it is a person or a system, or both, the answer I have today (can change tomorrow) is because many professing Christians are not true believers. They believe what they have been taught especially in their ‘churches;’ a false Christ and other mystical vague or unknowable mysteries of truth. The true Christ was taught yesterday and today by the Holy spirit of God, not by the thoughts of men .

APAK
 
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