What are we really dealing with here?

[Harvest 1874]

"It is important to fix the concept in our minds that this Man of Sin, this Antichrist, is NOT a single individual. The Man of Sin is more accurately described as a system which began its gradual development in the early Church (as the Apostle Paul wrote "the Mystery of Iniquity doth already work") and would be revealed before the Lord’s Second Advent.

Just as The Christ consists of the true Lord and the true Church, so The Antichrist is a counterfeit system consisting of a false lord and an apostate church. (1 Cor 12:12-28) This system, which for a time has been permitted to counterfeit the authority and future reign of the true Lord and his Church, has intoxicated the nations with false claims of a God given right to reign. A single individual could never fulfill all the predictions made concerning The Antichrist. Only a corrupt system—an unholy union of church and civil government—could fulfill these predictions.”

 

[Phoneman777]

The anti-Christ. The man of sin, The beast...
None are singular...The anti-Christ is not just this Pope, the next Pope , or the one after.
It is a whole collective system , the same as the Man of sin... even men today believes they are god.
...all are systems...we have blinkers on if we shrink it so small as to believe it is just one specific person for each of these!!!

Just as the body of Christ is collective, the bride of Christ is collective, the church of God is collective...so are the beast, the anti-christ, the man of sin, and the false prophet....all collective bodies.

Since the most fearful curse in the entire Bible is "don't take the Mark of the Beast", does it seem reasonable that God would cloud the identity of the Beast, Man of Sin, Little Horn, etc. in what most suppose to be impenetrable mystery - the eschatological equivalent of forcing us at gunpoint to walk through an uncharted landmine?

 

[Harvest 1874]

Goodness, why is everyone so narrow sighted to think that the Catholics are the big bad wolf! Look deeper and wider...you have just bought the same old, same old thing that we were sold and cut our teeth on as young immature Christians...

When referring to the Papacy (Catholicism) as the antichrist we are speaking in regards to the system of error, NOT of individual Catholics.

 

[Helen]

Since the most fearful curse in the entire Bible is "don't take the Mark of the Beast", does it seem reasonable that God would cloud the identity of the Beast, Man of Sin, Little Horn, etc. in mystery - the eschatological equivalent of forcing us at gunpoint to walk through an uncharted landmine?

No one has establish 100% what the "mark of the beast" IS!!
I bet not two people will agree.
60 years ago it was TV ...said many churches.
The altar , the idol in every home...and so on....

 

[Phoneman777]

Goodness, why is everyone so narrow sighted to think that the Catholics are the big bad wolf! Look deeper and wider...you have just bought the same old, same old thing that we were sold and cut our teeth on as young immature Christians...

No one is condemning Catholics, except those disgusting child predators who've destroyed countless lives by their disgusting predatory behavior. The Beast is a system, a kingdom, not an individual, and God is calling those He refers to as "My people" out of that system.

Why are Christians so pathetically irresponsible and unconcerned about properly identifying the Beast of prophecy, when the most solemn warning in all of Scripture is that the Mark of the Beast is a non-stop, one way ticket to hell?

 

[Phoneman777]

No one has establish 100% what the "mark of the beast" IS!!
I bet not two people will agree.
60 years ago it was TV ...said many churches.
The altar , the idol in every home...and so on....

You have absolutely no idea what an indictment of the character of God your statement is. Would God cloud the identity of the Beast in impenetrable mystery, and then warn those He loves that if we accept the Mark of the Beast, we go straight to hell?

 

[Harvest 1874]

Why are Christians so pathetically irresponsible and unconcerned about properly identifying the Beast of prophecy, when the most solemn warning in all of Scripture is that the Mark of the Beast is a non-stop, one way ticket to hell?

A through study of Revelation Chapter 13 would reveal the true identity of the Beast and his image, but I'm afraid most here would not like what it reveals.

 

[Helen]

Why are Christians so pathetically irresponsible and unconcerned about properly identifying the Beast of prophecy, when the most solemn warning in all of Scripture is that the Mark of the Beast is a non-stop, one way ticket to hell?

You do talk a 'load of it".
Jesus tells us to focus on The Kingdom...seek ye FIRST the kingdom OF GOD.
Nowhere are we admonished to spend precious time , that belongs to God...is digging into things that are time wasting and distractions from the Lord.

Go for it....it will keep you busy, but it will get you no where spiritually.

 

[pia]

Praying for the coming of Jesus is by its very nature against Antichrist

I guess you could look at it that way...But come 'he' must...

 

[Helen]

...plus, what on earth do you think YOU can do about it once you have identified who is who?
Okay, we are listening...what can or will you do to change anything?

 

[Naomi25]

I am perplexed at how any Catholic can look at this without shame and embarrassment. Is this not the epitome of every essential meaning of the word 'Antichrist'? 'He who stands in the place of Christ'....'instead of Christ'. How can any Protestant look at this and not shake their head in astonishment at how far removed from the reformers they have come? The reformers looked at scenes and declarations such as this, and recognized fully the blasphemy and arrogance of this haughty power, and had this power dead to rights when they declared her the Antichrist of scripture. Today, Protestantism looks somewhere else, as if Rome has changed. No, it is Protestantism that has apostatized from the truth.
And when the beast comes knocking at the door seeking submission to her authority, Protestantism bows, and surrenders. Protestants today will accept the mark of the beast as readily as eating tomorrows breakfast because they do not know, nor do they any longer believe in the Bible.

This is such a 'hot' topic, and by posting my opinion, I hope I don't offend or hurt. But the OP did raise a fairly decent point. How can we...even those calling themselves Catholics, look at pictures of the Pope, seated as he is on his throne, and not wonder at it? Where does he, and the higher levels of Priesthood, get the notion that such ornate richness and symbolic royalty and divinity was theirs to claim? When the Christ they follow was homeless, poor, persecuted and murdered. When the Apostle they claim founded their church was the same? Does that not...should that not, make all of us wonder? Should they not be pulling down that throne, offering it to Jesus and giving the money to the poor?
Now, don't get me wrong...I think the same of the disgusting "prosperity gospel" that we have infecting the Protestant side of things. And I call it blatantly wrong that people use the gospel to make both a name for themselves and line their pocket because of it.
But that is still a bit different to the RCC, I think. I do wonder....what would the world at large think...if one of the more respected Protestant Pastors, decided to set up a Throne and sit upon it, surrounding it with images of angels and what we know is supposed to be around God's throne. Like I said....shouldn't we wonder about it? Is is just so normal to us, that we do not?

In regards to another question in the OP...about the growing apathy of the Protestant Church. Well...perhaps. Perhaps, like I just said, things are normal, so we don't question as much as we should. Most likely, I think it's because it's removed. The Catholic Church where I live is full of down to earth people, many who are Christians who have an immense love of Jesus. There is no flashy throne or presumptuous trappings that make you nervous. It's just another Church that does service a little differently. It's a long way to Rome from here. And you might find that it's similar for a lot of people who are raised Catholic as well.

But....that's all just my opinion!

 

[pia]

But....that's all just my opinion!

Along with millions of others by now.....There is only One Church.....His Church, the one He is building, not any of the ones built by the hands or minds of men..

 

[pia]

the eschatological equivalent of forcing us at gunpoint to walk through an uncharted landmine?

I can see where you are coming from, but even if we were to be walked through a landmine field at gunpoint, somehow we must have faith that He will see us safely through...In this day and age where all of us to one extent or another are trusting governments and religious observance to get us through, I for one do not think it will be as easy as we think, to really learn to trust Him to supply all our needs, as He did with Moses and the Hebrews in the wilderness, we have become far too accustomed to getting any help we need when we need it, from the various systems set in place....We even get our food pre prepared whether from fast foods or super markets, so if it does become as the Bible says, that without the mark of the beast people will not be able to buy, sell or trade ? Well, what would we do ? Do we really know how to believe God for absolutely everything we will need during this time ? Do we know Him well enough to be able to trust Him to do this.....I remember finding a verse in the Bible once which made me cry and that was :" When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith upon the earth?"

 

[Phoneman777]

You do talk a 'load of it".
Jesus tells us to focus on The Kingdom...seek ye FIRST the kingdom OF GOD.
Nowhere are we admonished to spend precious time , that belongs to God...is digging into things that are time wasting and distractions from the Lord.

Go for it....it will keep you busy, but it will get you no where spiritually.

Studying about the Beast gets us nowhere spiritually?

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:"
Revelation 1:3 KJV

I'm sure you'll agree none of us can afford to miss out on any blessing of God, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

I guess you could look at it that way...But come 'he' must...

Amen, the sooner the better

 

[Phoneman777]

This is such a 'hot' topic, and by posting my opinion, I hope I don't offend or hurt. But the OP did raise a fairly decent point. How can we...even those calling themselves Catholics, look at pictures of the Pope, seated as he is on his throne, and not wonder at it? Where does he, and the higher levels of Priesthood, get the notion that such ornate richness and symbolic royalty and divinity was theirs to claim? When the Christ they follow was homeless, poor, persecuted and murdered. When the Apostle they claim founded their church was the same? Does that not...should that not, make all of us wonder? Should they not be pulling down that throne, offering it to Jesus and giving the money to the poor?
Now, don't get me wrong...I think the same of the disgusting "prosperity gospel" that we have infecting the Protestant side of things. And I call it blatantly wrong that people use the gospel to make both a name for themselves and line their pocket because of it.
But that is still a bit different to the RCC, I think. I do wonder....what would the world at large think...if one of the more respected Protestant Pastors, decided to set up a Throne and sit upon it, surrounding it with images of angels and what we know is supposed to be around God's throne. Like I said....shouldn't we wonder about it? Is is just so normal to us, that we do not?

In regards to another question in the OP...about the growing apathy of the Protestant Church. Well...perhaps. Perhaps, like I just said, things are normal, so we don't question as much as we should. Most likely, I think it's because it's removed. The Catholic Church where I live is full of down to earth people, many who are Christians who have an immense love of Jesus. There is no flashy throne or presumptuous trappings that make you nervous. It's just another Church that does service a little differently. It's a long way to Rome from here. And you might find that it's similar for a lot of people who are raised Catholic as well.

But....that's all just my opinion!

Prosperity preachers...
A lady I once met said she was the church secretary of a very large non-denominational black church. She said one day she and her pastor picked up other pastors at the airport for a conference, and they all started bragging about how much money they brought in and how much influence they had over their members. Apostate Protestantism is also mentioned in Revelation and it's just a matter of time before it joins up with the Papacy.

 

[pia]

oint. How can we...even those calling themselves Catholics, look at pictures of the Pope, seated as he is on his throne, and not wonder at it? Where does he, and the higher levels of Priesthood, get the notion that such ornate richness and symbolic royalty and divinity was theirs to claim?

This is true, but surely goes for every other head of any of the other 'christian' churches ? Look at the Bishop of Canterbury and like ? Seems what Luther fought so hard for, was forgotten just as quickly, not saying he was 100% correct either mind you......If we look at the description in Revelation it speaks of a Harlot and ALL of her off spring...so a harlot is someone who is not faithful to a spouse and since she, The great Harlot, has had off spring she has been truly unfaithful...It speaks of this Harlot as dripping with the blood of the saints and how she mislead a lot of Gods people, which can most assuredly be attached to the very first state ordained religion, because anyone who came speaking truth, would have been put to death, because it was not a part of their newfound doctrines and credence's ( is that the right word?)....And surely ALL of those religious systems which demand people follow after these men, instead of God, cannot be anything but, a part of the beast / anti Christ system......Since unbelievers cannot really be called "My people" in the sentence :" Come our of her , My people", it must be speaking to us who believe....

 

[Phoneman777]

...plus, what on earth do you think YOU can do about it once you have identified who is who?
Okay, we are listening...what can or will you do to change anything?

Avoid getting the Mark of the Beast...and going to hell?

 

[Helen]

Prosperity preachers...
A lady I once met said she was the church secretary of a very large non-denominational black church. One day as she and her pastor were picking up other pastors at the airport for a conference, she said they all started bragging about how much money they brought in and how much influence they had over their members. Apostate Protestantism is also mentioned in Revelation and it's just a matter of time before it joins up with the Papacy.

Haha! I was all ready to give you a "like" as I read this post..it was good, until the very last word..."Papacy". Y.A.W .N. Here we go again.
Yawn, ...I am getting so tired of people who posts " against" things on this Site...I'd much rather read what people stand for and how the Lord has lead them through life..and how we can learn from each other.
The constant knocking the Catholics is getting so boring now, and it's dominating this Site which was so good before with interesting discussions.
Surely there are more interesting things to post about than knocking the Catholics. How small minded we have got!!
We have so many Catholics dominated posts and threads...next to none were started by them...they post in defence of what they believe, which they are free to do.

Let us sing another tune, for heavens sake.

 

[Naomi25]

This is true, but surely goes for every other head of any of the other 'christian' churches ? Look at the Bishop of Canterbury and like ? Seems what Luther fought so hard for, was forgotten just as quickly, not saying he was 100% correct either mind you......If we look at the description in Revelation it speaks of a Harlot and ALL of her off spring...so a harlot is someone who is not faithful to a spouse and since she, The great Harlot, has had off spring she has been truly unfaithful...It speaks of this Harlot as dripping with the blood of the saints and how she mislead a lot of Gods people, which can most assuredly be attached to the very first state ordained religion, because anyone who came speaking truth, would have been put to death, because it was not a part of their newfound doctrines and credence's ( is that the right word?)....And surely ALL of those religious systems which demand people follow after these men, instead of God, cannot be anything but, a part of the beast / anti Christ system......Since unbelievers cannot really be called "My people" in the sentence :" Come our of her , My people", it must be speaking to us who believe....

Agreed. There is a lot in Protestantism that I heartily disagree with...I don't just want to waggle a finger at the RCC. And I think that the fact that the Antichrist is said to "take a seat in the temple of God"...where the 'temple of God' is most often referring to the Church in the NT, suggests that it will be someone from within, rather than from without. Which also makes sense. We tend to close ranks, rather than question. It's a good reminder that we should always test everything via the Word of God.