I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

[bbyrd009]

One of the biggest obstacles the old Jews faced was an insistence on "Literalism." This is evidenced in the confused interpretation Nicodemus had when Jesus told him we needed to "be born again." This line of thought even tainted what they expected the Messiah to be. Probably the main reason they did not recognize Jesus.

apparently nothing has changed since then, either

 

[Willie T]

apparently nothing has changed since then, either

Very few people who claim to "read the Bible Literally", actually do so on a consistent basis. Even their great Charles C. Ryrie was somewhat selective in which Scriptures he chose to take literally.

 

[bbyrd009]

Very few people who claim to "read the Bible Literally", actually do so on a consistent basis. Even their great Charles C. Ryrie was somewhat selective in which Scriptures he chose to take literally.

"give everything you have to the poor" was optional i guess huh

 

[amadeus]

"give everything you have to the poor" was optional i guess huh

What is NOT optional is giving up everything that stands between you and God.

Is that not mammon?

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 @Jay Ross We often, as end time 'experts', cite numerous prophecies and tie them to current events saying the time is short because such and such is happening etc etc. Particularly in reference to war, pestilence earthquakes and the like... Matthew 24 right?
Here's something to Consider.

From Noah Webster published in 1799

By famine or sword from ad96 to 180, 50 thousands killed.
In Antioch 100000 killed in earthquakes in Antioch which destroyed 13 other cities.
In Rome ad187 pestilence appeared and continued 3 years.
In London by 310ad 40000 fitted in famine.
In ad446 September 14, an earthquake Shop down the walls of Constantinople and 57 towers fell.
In Rome, ad539, 50000 fitted..
In Antioch 588, earthquake killed 60000.
542ad 10000 killed in Turkey in plague per day.
Ad679 server famine in England lasted 3 years.
Ad717 in Constantinople 300000 fitted of plague.
Ad1005 earthquakes, follows by pestilence for 3 months, it is said one third of the human race died.
In Constantinople in ad 1077 so many died in plague and famine that there weren't enough living to bury the dead.
In Italy, ad1124, same a above. So many dead not buried, and one third of the population of England died.
In ad1294 in England, famine kills thousands.
Ad1346, in London, 50000 died of plague and famine and were buried in one grave yard: in Norwich, 50000: Venice, 100000: Florence 100000; in eastern nations 20 million. This was called the black death.
In ad1352 in China, 900000 died of famine.
Ad1450, 60000 die of plague in Milan.
Ad1570, 200000 due of plague in Moscow.
Ad1572, in Lyons, 50000 plague.
Ad1625, 35000 for of plague in London.
And in 1656, in Naples, 300000 die of plague

Now the above is just from war and natural disasters. No mention of the millions who died through persecution, first from pagan time, then papal Rome, then from the likes of Tamerlane. And that's just up to the 17 th century.
How many Aborigines, American Indians, Maori, Inca, Aztec, Africans suffered and died at the hands of genocidal land grabbing religious war mongers and slave traders? Then of course many wars since then. The American civil war, 2 boer wars, 2 world wars, Vietnam, Kosovo, Crimea, Ireland etc etc etc. Yet all of this were just the beginning of sorrows!!!!
My friends, the storm to come will be relentless in its fury. We have no conception whatsoever as to the magnitude of the chaos to come. None of us today have the faith needed to survive the coming crisis. A church far surpassing that of the primitive apostolic church will be needed to endure. Time now to pray... Study... And cleave to Jesus as if your entire destiny depends on it, because it does.

It's true that a lot of 'prophecy watchers' say we are very close to the end. And if you read back, a lot of the Christian authors and Church Fathers thought they would see the end in their time as well. And I don't necessarily think this is either bad, or even a wrong thing to do. The Bible seems to paint a picture of faithful Christians as having an air of constant readiness, an expectation that Jesus could arrive at any second. And I think we must be true to that, don't you think?
As far as the stats you gave...well yes! I think that is the point, is it not? Things have always been bad, they will always be bad! Right up until Jesus returns to make all things new. But, I believe the bible paints these things as increasing in intensity and frequency, like the birth pains of a woman.

The big "unknown" that I believe leads many people to 'guess' that we are the terminal generation, is that we see how very bad it is...surely it's worse now than what it has been, we asked ourselves? But who can truly say, besides God, how very bad it will get? Even when these "birth pains" are coming without even a seeming breath between them, they could still increase in intensity, as you say.

 

[Naomi25]

"have no fear"
at least that is what we tell ourselves, ya

That is what anyone "tells themselves" when approaching how they read scripture. Everyone has to start with an understanding of how to read the Bible. And of course human fallibility bumbles in there more often than not. For you too, I would assume.

 

[brakelite]

Personally i am with Christ right now, and today has enough trouble in it.
Christ is Spirit, right?

You might note how well you agree with Montezuma, who believed Quetzalcoatl was coming back to get him, too
i'm not sure how you could deny that this sounds much more like Death, More Abundantly than Life, more abundantly
or just reflect on Ezekiel ("I'm against...making ppl to fly like birds"),
or listen to how sure you seem to be about some imagined tomorrow,

with you (all) at the head of the table of course right.
he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought

i can tell you with confidence that i don't know myself.
i guess since i'm here i could ask you for your date for this "personal return,"
surely you have a pretty good idea of when, right?

you say "soon," but i still see plenty of wars and rumors of wars, etc,
earthquakes and volcanoes and whatnot
so i'm curious how you get to "soon," when the Book says "the time is not yet" for those? ty

Are you saying that we should not give any consideration to a literal second coming of Jesus, because you believe that being with us now in spirit fulfills that? That this life is all we have to look forward to? No resurrection?
Or do you think that we ought not be concerned about tomorrow simply because as Jesus said, today is troublesome enough? So prophecy is in the Bible for what purpose? Or are you Preterist?

 

[pia]

"give everything you have to the poor"

This was an instruction given by Jesus to one young ruler, who told Jesus, that he had followed the law all his life, and asking Jesus what he was lacking..........This was when Jesus said to give all away that he had to the poor, which saddened the young man ( it states ).....Jesus was making a point here, and I am 100% on board with all of us doing what we can to fill a need when we are able....However, I would not make it a law, that everybody must give away all they have to the poor at all times. Many people do this with some of the things written in the Bible, trying to force others into obeying these man made laws, while ignoring " Love others as I have Loved you"...

 

[Naomi25]

Are you saying that we should not give any consideration to a literal second coming of Jesus, because you believe that being with us now in spirit fulfills that? That this life is all we have to look forward to? No resurrection?
Or do you think that we ought not be concerned about tomorrow simply because as Jesus said, today is troublesome enough? So prophecy is in the Bible for what purpose? Or are you Preterist?

I know, right? I don't understand where he's coming from either. But yeah...I think that's exactly what he's saying.

 

[brakelite]

I know, right? I don't understand where he's coming from either. But yeah...I think that's exactly what he's saying.

But is it what he means??? Our friend @bbyrd009 can tax the mind at times with his seemingly innocuous one-liners which at second reading cause the brain to fart and the reasoning powers to go awol. I'm sure he knows what he means but does anyone else apart from armadeus lol?

 

[Willie T]

But is it what he means??? Our friend @bbyrd009 can tax the mind at times with his seemingly innocuous one-liners which at second reading cause the brain to fart and the reasoning powers to go awol. I'm sure he knows what he means but does anyone else apart from armadeus lol?

Actually, for the most part, he makes more sense than most on here.

 

[Willie T]

"give everything you have to the poor" was optional i guess huh

We know that is not to be taken as a literal statement for us all, or else we would never hear a word about caring for our family, working for the future, and planning for inheritances for our children.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Bible seems to paint a picture of faithful Christians as having an air of constant readiness, an expectation that Jesus could arrive at any second. And I think we must be true to that, don't you think?

i would reflect on the possibility that the Bible is taking ppls belief in a literal life after death a la Pharaohs and Ancient Chinese Emperors as a given, and using that "against" them in portraying a new life in Christ after ego death, which is meant to be lived in the here/now. Iow all of those vv that suggest some very uncomfortable things to most "believers" should be taken into account imo
no one knows where they go when they die
no Son of Man may die for another's sins
all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me
under the law almost everything is purified with blood
etc

 

[bbyrd009]

That is what anyone "tells themselves" when approaching how they read scripture.

hmm, you think?
"we take the exact and true meaning that God intends for us to"
seems awfully presumptuous to me wadr; i don't know the exact/true meaning of many passages right now

 

[bbyrd009]

Everyone has to start with an understanding of how to read the Bible.

hmm, i dunno, i went 40 years without that lol. Tbh i even kind of realized it at the time, on some level

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you saying that we should not give any consideration to a literal second coming of Jesus, because you believe that being with us now in spirit fulfills that?

hmm. well, i guess it obviously either fulfills one now or it does not, right; meaning your present level of fulfillment is likely a good gauge of how much Christ has been revealed in you. Another way to put that is Jesus asked to stay, if it was possible, but we all can't wait to leave, right

Ergo it is likely a good idea to get fulfilled, or how else to put it, find pressed down, shaken together, running over, find rest right now, don't be waiting for physical death for that iow, and when you have found that rest--which is going to be reflected in your confession, you will not be able to hide it, even if you tried--then you will be qualified to reflect upon Second Coming imo

 

[bbyrd009]

That this life is all we have to look forward to? No resurrection?

maybe just move the resurrection to your rebirth, after your baptism, which i don't mean the ritual one necessarily. Maybe, but prolly not, all depends upon the individual i guess? And embrace we do not yet know what we will become, all go to the same place, no one has ever gone up except He Who came down, you and your sons will be here with me

 

[bbyrd009]

Or do you think that we ought not be concerned about tomorrow simply because as Jesus said, today is troublesome enough?

well, plus "don't be afraid" is like the most often repeated phrase in Scripture.
don't get me wrong, the Day of the Lord is coming, sure, tares grow with wheat, etc, but the only ones that need to worry are of the world i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

So prophecy is in the Bible for what purpose?

to illustrate what you will have to go through for Christ to be revealed in you, in a language that you may read logically/literally if that is where you are at, which reveals where you are spiritually. A good thing iow, a tool. Reflecting upon vv that attack your logic at other vv if you are sincere, and not doing so if you are a hypocrite in that area, so that see and not see can function, something like that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Or are you Preterist?

i guess not, bc no reason they will not happen again i guess, even if they have happened before.
The Roman Empire crashed, ours will too