I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

[eldios]

ok well you sound like you have a superiority complex wadr, which i understand might only be perceived on my end, because we are only reading and not talking. You might be quite humble, i don't know.

God makes sure that we servants have been humiliated enough to know that we are not in control of anything before God takes control of our mind and bodies for His purpose to learn how we're created.

 

[Heb 13:8]

LOL, According to the OP, the "last days" started 2,000 years ago. If he's right, then yes, revelation 20 already happened. Isn't that about something hey? A shining example of what I said before. This is the kind of silliness we get with false interpretations of scripture, and its usually the ones that pump themselves up as Gods Holier than thou warriors that are the most boisterous. It irritates me to no end, and its not helping the credibility of the "body of Christ" in the eyes of the world one iota.

Gotta love the internet. lol

 

[quietthinker]

Hello Naomi25
Here is my two bobs worth after reading your posts and the various responses to your topic.
Firstly, it is clear to me your intentions are honourable. By saying that I mean you are not just pushing a pre chewed view that attempts to force private ideas into the scriptures intent, you actually want to get a handle on its paradigm.
Bravo! this is something of a rarity.

Inconsistency which I have learned to recognise over the years is a primary indicator of strange Gospels. Yes, even the topic, nay, particularly the topic of Eschatology can be a trip. Using scripture out of context and or misappropriated emphasis is a favourite of many. Be strong, be bold and forever pray for protection and guidance as the promise is sure, he will direct your paths.
k.

 

[bbyrd009]

apply the Rev to your End Times imo and let the other End Times take care of itself!

 

[Helen]

apply the Rev to your End Times imo and let the other End Times take care of itself!

Amen there @bbyrd009 ....quite a profound statement.
Simple, but straight to the heart of the issue.
I like it!

 

[Naomi25]

Hello Naomi25
Here is my two bobs worth after reading your posts and the various responses to your topic.
Firstly, it is clear to me your intentions are honourable. By saying that I mean you are not just pushing a pre chewed view that attempts to force private ideas into the scriptures intent, you actually want to get a handle on its paradigm.
Bravo! this is something of a rarity.

Inconsistency which I have learned to recognise over the years is a primary indicator of strange Gospels. Yes, even the topic, nay, particularly the topic of Eschatology can be a trip. Using scripture out of context and or misappropriated emphasis is a favourite of many. Be strong, be bold and forever pray for protection and guidance as the promise is sure, he will direct your paths.
k.

Thank you. Yes... it does seem a few don't take me seriously and think I'm fishing for something particular, or a troll. It does make getting to the bottom line difficult sometimes. I don't really blame them though, because oh my goodness, there are so many out there who are!! But it's a subject I'm quite interested in and just find I have questions about. Questions that just seem to slip through the cracks when you hear people teaching. And it's sort of hard to ask questions when you're reading a book, or listening to an online talk! So...yeah...we ought to be able to toss around some ideas with other Christians, I think. See what they think, how they view the various issues. It helps plug holes, and, even if I end up disagreeing with them, it still helps flesh out the picture.

 

[bbyrd009]

God makes sure that we servants have been humiliated enough to know that we are not in control of anything before God takes control of our mind and bodies for His purpose to learn how we're created.

um, yikes?

 

[brakelite]

Hi Naomi. I read the first post of yours, but couldn't read further than the bottom of that page. Already you had been inundated with contrary ideas, some quite stupendously ridiculous. And if some are offended at that, tough.
I agree with all your premises, except for the last one regarding the millennium. No 7 year tribulation, a figment of man's imagination. No gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, man's imagination. No pre-tribulation rapture, man's imagination.
The millennium however, I see as literal, but not on earth. When the righteous are raised, and those that are alive changed, and we all meet the Lord in the air, that is when we go to those mansions prepared as per John 14. "That where he is, so we shall be also."
During that 1000 years we reign with Christ, judging angels, asking questions, satisfying or every last need for answers regarding all that had transpired over the last 6000 years. It will be a1000 year Sabbath. The final millennium of 7. At the end of that period we shall return to the earth along with the new Jerusalem and settle on the mount of olives add per prophecy. All the wicked shall then be raised to face judgement. They surround the City, and in one final desperate attempt to save themselves do what all their lives they have been preparing for... The final rebellion..

 

[brakelite]

This is when Fire comes down out of heaven and destroyed them all. This same Fire also cleanses the earth of all the pollution and rubble from the plagues of 1000 year previously. And the new earth and the new heaven's are created.
1000 Years of Peace | Bible Study Guides | Amazing Facts

 

[bbyrd009]

mmmkay, but you sound awful sure to me wadr

 

[brakelite]

mmmkay, but you sound awful sure to me wadr

Very sure, or I wouldn't present it. But that doesn't mean I'm proclaiming infallibility. If some one shows me from scripture something more convincing.....

 

[brakelite]

I started life as Christian at age 24. Hal Lindsay at that time, and to many still is, was the guru of end time scenarios and I read his books avidly. I thought the book The Late Great Planet Earth was the bees knees, and i considered it almost scripture. Pre-trib rapture etc was all I knew. What I later discovered however as I grew up, was it isn't biblical. There are more holes in his theories than a well used dart-board. With what is presented above as I currently believe, people have tried to throw darts and poke holes in it, but thus fari have found sufficient scriptural glue to fill those holes.

 

[Helen]

I started life as Christian at age 24. Hal Lindsay at that time, and to many still is, was the guru of end time scenarios and I read his books avidly. I thought the book The Late Great Planet Earth was the bees knees, and i considered it almost scripture. Pre-trib rapture etc was all I knew. What I later discovered however as I grew up, was it isn't biblical. There are more holes in his theories than a well used dart-board. With what is presented above as I currently believe, people have tried to throw darts and poke holes in it, but thus fari have found sufficient scriptural glue to fill those holes.

Agree...and ditto...( I was 22) I too fell for Hal Lindsey's stuff...

Thankfully as I studied I saw all the error in it.
It sold books and made movies...but it is still not truth.

And, from where I sit, it has done almost as much damage as the rapture theory when it was first invented in the 1830's

But, enough said on that subject.

 

[bbyrd009]

I started life as Christian at age 24. Hal Lindsay at that time, and to many still is, was the guru of end time scenarios and I read his books avidly. I thought the book The Late Great Planet Earth was the bees knees, and i considered it almost scripture. Pre-trib rapture etc was all I knew. What I later discovered however as I grew up, was it isn't biblical. There are more holes in his theories than a well used dart-board. With what is presented above as I currently believe, people have tried to throw darts and poke holes in it, but thus fari have found sufficient scriptural glue to fill those holes.

i would say that one's terminology might be perfect, and yet their definitions might be disputed; so maybe at that point it becomes relevant to question the definitions. Which does not mean toss them, but test them.

 

[bbyrd009]

The millennium however, I see as literal, but not on earth. When the righteous are raised, and those that are alive changed, and we all meet the Lord in the air, that is when we go to those mansions prepared as per John 14. "That where he is, so we shall be also."

No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.
"I will never leave you, nor forsake you"

 

[bbyrd009]

During that 1000 years we reign with Christ

picture it if you will; "Ok, tomorrow ends the 1000 year reign, is everyone packed?"


oh wait, how is "tomorrow" determined in a place without a rising and setting sun, do you think?

 

[Naomi25]

Hi Naomi. I read the first post of yours, but couldn't read further than the bottom of that page. Already you had been inundated with contrary ideas, some quite stupendously ridiculous. And if some are offended at that, tough.
I agree with all your premises, except for the last one regarding the millennium. No 7 year tribulation, a figment of man's imagination. No gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, man's imagination. No pre-tribulation rapture, man's imagination.
The millennium however, I see as literal, but not on earth. When the righteous are raised, and those that are alive changed, and we all meet the Lord in the air, that is when we go to those mansions prepared as per John 14. "That where he is, so we shall be also."
During that 1000 years we reign with Christ, judging angels, asking questions, satisfying or every last need for answers regarding all that had transpired over the last 6000 years. It will be a1000 year Sabbath. The final millennium of 7. At the end of that period we shall return to the earth along with the new Jerusalem and settle on the mount of olives add per prophecy. All the wicked shall then be raised to face judgement. They surround the City, and in one final desperate attempt to save themselves do what all their lives they have been preparing for... The final rebellion..

Hey brakelite, that's interesting. What happens on Earth during that 1000 years? She lies resting, for her Sabbath? And do you see this only because of John 14, or do you find it elsewhere? Thanks!

 

[Naomi25]

picture it if you will; "Ok, tomorrow ends the 1000 year reign, is everyone packed?"


oh wait, how is "tomorrow" determined in a place without a rising and setting sun, do you think?

Unless that's just figurative. I'm assuming you're talking about when the bible says that God will be our light, and that there will be no sun or night...? Like the mention of "no sea", it could be purely figurative. "Sea" was always used in the OT to describe chaos and turmoil...hence, in heaven, none of that. Perhaps what is meant by God being our light, is that, like John talks about in 1 John, he will be our absolute truth and justice. Our light, that which we are guided by in everything. There IS no darkness...in the spiritual sense. Do we really suppose that God will do away with the sun? Why? It's not sinful. It's part of the cosmos he made...
I tend to think that dismissing 'night time' is just as ridiculous as leaving your clothes behind when you're beamed up.

 

[brakelite]

Hey brakelite, that's interesting. What happens on Earth during that 1000 years? She lies resting, for her Sabbath? And do you see this only because of John 14, or do you find it elsewhere? Thanks!

Hi. No, not just on John 14. You have it exactly right. The Earth is resting. The only living entities on earth during that period are Satan and the demons. This is their period of being bound. On a prison of their own making. With none to interact with other than to fight amongst each other. And 1000 years to ponder their coming destruction.
KJV Jeremiah 4
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
KJV Isaiah 24
God's Judgments upon the Land
1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.....
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.....
Of the devils He says...

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem , and before his ancients gloriously.

In Genesis, before creation, the earth was without firm and void. The Greek word used was abussos. Pit. A place of emptiness and chaos. The same word used to describe the earth here.... Bottom less pit.

KJV Revelation 20
Satan Is Bound
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[brakelite]

KJV Jeremiah 25
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.