I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

[bbyrd009]

Unless that's just figurative. I'm assuming you're talking about when the bible says that God will be our light, and that there will be no sun or night...? Like the mention of "no sea", it could be purely figurative. "Sea" was always used in the OT to describe chaos and turmoil...hence, in heaven, none of that. Perhaps what is meant by God being our light, is that, like John talks about in 1 John, he will be our absolute truth and justice. Our light, that which we are guided by in everything. There IS no darkness...in the spiritual sense. Do we really suppose that God will do away with the sun? Why? It's not sinful. It's part of the cosmos he made...
I tend to think that dismissing 'night time' is just as ridiculous as leaving your clothes behind when you're beamed up.

yes, those are all metaphors, and we try to interpret them logically, literally. "1000 year reign" is a metaphor too

 

[Naomi25]

yes, those are all metaphors, and we try to interpret them logically, literally. "1000 year reign" is a metaphor too

To interpret something literally, only means we need to interpret it faithfully as the text wishes us to. In other words, God would not have us see him as a giant hen, or Christ as an actual Lamb, or Satan necessarily as a dragon or prowling around in Lion form. To faithfully interpret these texts 'literally' we take the exact and true meaning that God intends for us to: God wants us to see him as nurturing, Jesus as being slain and sacrificial for all of us, and Satan as an evil, dangerous beast. They are still true and absolute.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi brakelite, thanks for those passages. I've read through them, and, well...one does not really 'pass judgement' on a new idea in the space of an hour or two. On first glance, yes, i'd say they are talking about end times judgement God calls upon the Earth. But... I cannot quite see how you place only Satan and his demons on the earth at this time from these passages. It seems to me that some of them say that there will still be some men here. How do you view those verses?

 

[brakelite]

But, enough said on that subject.

One must admit however that it has a direct bearing on the topic of of the thread, and has contributed hugely to the widespread errors now prevalent within the church regarding the second coming and the events leading up to it.

 

[brakelite]

picture it if you will; "Ok, tomorrow ends the 1000 year reign, is everyone packed?"


oh wait, how is "tomorrow" determined in a place without a rising and setting sun, do you think?

Yet in the new earth everyone (not just those pesky "legalist Adventists" will be observing the Sabbath. So maybe the 1000 year period will be governed by the earth, not heaven.

 

[brakelite]

yes, those are all metaphors, and we try to interpret them logically, literally. "1000 year reign" is a metaphor too

Some time periods are figurative. Yet they represent literal time. For example. The 70 weeks of Daniel 9:25-27.
70 weeks was figurative language for 490 years. One Day for a year. 70x7=490 days=490 years. Confirmed by the precise fulfillment of the arrival of Messiah.
Another is the 3 different figurative versions of the same time period in Daniel and Revelation,... 42 months....1260 days.... Times, time, and half a time. None of these are normal means by which we speak of time periods thus ask are figurative. Each of the 3 adds up to 1260. 42 months X30=1260. Times (2 years) time(1 year) and half a time (6 months) also add up to 42 months, or 1260 days. Being figurative, they are converted to years, as in Daniel 9 with the 70 weeks/490 days. 1260 years.
Another example is the persecution that came upon there people of God for 10 days in Revelation 2:10. This prophetically applied to the church in Smyrna, that portion of the prophecy applying also to the church in general of the first century, which suffered great tribulation at the hand of Diocletian for10 years. There are several others throughout scripture, all of which are figurative but finding fulfillment in literal time and history.
These are modelled on the means by which the Lord spoke to His prophets regarding time periods that had spiritual and prophetic significance. Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:4-6.
The 1000 year of Revelation however is couched in normal language, therefore there is no reason to assume it figurative.

 

[brakelite]

No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.
"I will never leave you, nor forsake you"

Care to elaborate please? Not sure what you are implying here.

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite, thanks for those passages. I've read through them, and, well...one does not really 'pass judgement' on a new idea in the space of an hour or two. On first glance, yes, i'd say they are talking about end times judgement God calls upon the Earth. But... I cannot quite see how you place only Satan and his demons on the earth at this time from these passages. It seems to me that some of them say that there will still be some men here. How do you view those verses?

Yes, the text says"few men left" . But they don't necessarily have to be on the earth. If the earth as described is empty and void, then those few, the"remnant", must be somewhere else?
It has never made the slightest bit of sense to me (years ago when reading Hal Lindsay I felt the same) that at the culmination of all our struggles, at a time when we would look forward to rest, peace, harmony and infinite joy, God would not encumber us with cleaning up the mess that resulted from the last plagues. Burying the millions of bodies and carcasses, both man, beast, and bird.... Cleaning up all the environmental pollution after a nuclear war and resultant fallout... Rebuilding on top of dangerous rubble amid the toxins and poisons leftover from today's industries now destroyed...1000 years living amidst that and repairing it sufficient to make it livable??? I think those who would be destroyed under the falling mountains and sinking islands got the better part. No, I have never thought God's plan included such a scenario. Cleaning up the mess resulting from God judgement? Nah. God himself will do that at the end of the millennium with the same Fire that destroys the devil, the fallen angels, and all the wicked of the earth. The true hell fire that prepares the earth for its new environment.
Let Satan live among that stink shambles for 1000 years. He can have it.

 

[brakelite]

Is it really God's plan that the remaining generations under the personal reign of Christ should live in conditions that these established?
KJV Revelation 16
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Not to mention all the water on the planet being blood... Rampant pestilence and plagues upon anyone in the vicinity... Cholera...All global!

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, the text says"few men left" . But they don't necessarily have to be on the earth. If the earth as described is empty and void, then those few, the"remnant", must be somewhere else?
It has never made the slightest bit of sense to me (years ago when reading Hal Lindsay I felt the same) that at the culmination of all our struggles, at a time when we would look forward to rest, peace, harmony and infinite joy, God would not encumber us with cleaning up the mess that resulted from the last plagues. Burying the millions of bodies and carcasses, both man, beast, and bird.... Cleaning up all the environmental pollution after a nuclear war and resultant fallout... Rebuilding on top of dangerous rubble amid the toxins and poisons leftover from today's industries now destroyed...1000 years living amidst that and repairing it sufficient to make it livable??? I think those who would be destroyed under the falling mountains and sinking islands got the better part. No, I have never thought God's plan included such a scenario. Cleaning up the mess resulting from God judgement? Nah. God himself will do that at the end of the millennium with the same Fire that destroys the devil, the fallen angels, and all the wicked of the earth. The true hell fire that prepares the earth for its new environment.
Let Satan live among that stink shambles for 1000 years. He can have it.

Is it really God's plan that the remaining generations under the personal reign of Christ should live in conditions that these established?
KJV Revelation 16
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Not to mention all the water on the planet being blood... Rampant pestilence and plagues upon anyone in the vicinity... Cholera...All global!

Well, I cannot disagree, but tend to see my answer to that lying in the Amillennial perspective. That being; the 1000 years is a figurative number symbolizing a full, or perfect period (when it is over, Christ declares his reign complete and the last enemy, death, will be conquered) and is happening now. Christ is currently ruling and reigning in heaven, and his Kingdom has partially come through us, his servants. When the '1000' years are up, Christ will return, raise the dead, judge the wicked and make all things new...that includes giving us our new bodies. I see the bible as explaining all these events taking place at the one time...when Christ returns.
This is how I see it, but I realise it's not without it's problems (few end times scenarios are), and I'm not dogmatic over it.
Of course, we could both be wrong and God could wave his hand and make the land fresh and clear for his earthly millennium! Nothing is impossible for our God!

 

[Jay Ross]

Is it really God's plan that the remaining generations under the personal reign of Christ should live in conditions that these established?
KJV Revelation 16
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Not to mention all the water on the planet being blood... Rampant pestilence and plagues upon anyone in the vicinity... Cholera...All global!

Hello,
quake
Have you ever considered that Rev 16 : 17-22 is describing the events around WW1. In other words Rev 16:17-22 was fulfilled around 100 years ago.

It is just a thought. The Greek word translated as earthquake, IMHO should be taken to mean turmoil, and the earth was in Great turmoil during and around the time of WW1.

It is just a thought as many of the images and thoughts expressed in these few verses can be related to the event that happened during and just after WW1.

Shalom

 

[brakelite]

@Naomi25 @Jay Ross We often, as end time 'experts', cite numerous prophecies and tie them to current events saying the time is short because such and such is happening etc etc. Particularly in reference to war, pestilence earthquakes and the like... Matthew 24 right?
Here's something to Consider.

From Noah Webster published in 1799

By famine or sword from ad96 to 180, 50 thousands killed.
In Antioch 100000 killed in earthquakes in Antioch which destroyed 13 other cities.
In Rome ad187 pestilence appeared and continued 3 years.
In London by 310ad 40000 fitted in famine.
In ad446 September 14, an earthquake Shop down the walls of Constantinople and 57 towers fell.
In Rome, ad539, 50000 fitted..
In Antioch 588, earthquake killed 60000.
542ad 10000 killed in Turkey in plague per day.
Ad679 server famine in England lasted 3 years.
Ad717 in Constantinople 300000 fitted of plague.
Ad1005 earthquakes, follows by pestilence for 3 months, it is said one third of the human race died.
In Constantinople in ad 1077 so many died in plague and famine that there weren't enough living to bury the dead.
In Italy, ad1124, same a above. So many dead not buried, and one third of the population of England died.
In ad1294 in England, famine kills thousands.
Ad1346, in London, 50000 died of plague and famine and were buried in one grave yard: in Norwich, 50000: Venice, 100000: Florence 100000; in eastern nations 20 million. This was called the black death.
In ad1352 in China, 900000 died of famine.
Ad1450, 60000 die of plague in Milan.
Ad1570, 200000 due of plague in Moscow.
Ad1572, in Lyons, 50000 plague.
Ad1625, 35000 for of plague in London.
And in 1656, in Naples, 300000 die of plague

Now the above is just from war and natural disasters. No mention of the millions who died through persecution, first from pagan time, then papal Rome, then from the likes of Tamerlane. And that's just up to the 17 th century.
How many Aborigines, American Indians, Maori, Inca, Aztec, Africans suffered and died at the hands of genocidal land grabbing religious war mongers and slave traders? Then of course many wars since then. The American civil war, 2 boer wars, 2 world wars, Vietnam, Kosovo, Crimea, Ireland etc etc etc. Yet all of this were just the beginning of sorrows!!!!
My friends, the storm to come will be relentless in its fury. We have no conception whatsoever as to the magnitude of the chaos to come. None of us today have the faith needed to survive the coming crisis. A church far surpassing that of the primitive apostolic church will be needed to endure. Time now to pray... Study... And cleave to Jesus as if your entire destiny depends on it, because it does.

 

[bbyrd009]

"have no fear"

To faithfully interpret these texts 'literally' we take the exact and true meaning that God intends for us to

at least that is what we tell ourselves, ya

 

[bbyrd009]

Care to elaborate please? Not sure what you are implying here.

well i was just Quoting, not making any implications there myself.
the implications seem pretty obvious to me wadr
how would you characterize them

 

[bbyrd009]

The 1000 year of Revelation however is couched in normal language, therefore there is no reason to assume it figurative.

ok ty

 

[Willie T]

at least that is what we tell ourselves, ya

How true, how true, how true! "Literalism" seems to be just about the most abused concept in the Bible.

 

[brakelite]

well i was just Quoting, not making any implications there myself.
the implications seem pretty obvious to me wadr
how would you characterize them

I have always read them in context of Jesus revealing His credentials as the Son of God. He is explaining to Nicodemus His origins. That prior to His incarnation Jesus had a life in heaven with His Father, a life, although now forever a human life, He resumed at His Ascension. Because He is now human, limited by a physical body that is constrained to one place, He sent to us His Spirit... His representative to bring us power, strength, understanding, and His presence... Hence the fulfillment of his promise" I will never forsake you not leave you".
But the physical Jesus who currently ministers on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary... He is soon to return personally to take us home with Him.

 

[Willie T]

One of the biggest obstacles the old Jews faced was an insistence on "Literalism." This is evidenced in the confused interpretation Nicodemus had when Jesus told him we needed to "be born again." This line of thought even tainted what they expected the Messiah to be. Probably the main reason they did not recognize Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

I have always read them in context of Jesus revealing His credentials as the Son of God. He is explaining to Nicodemus His origins. That prior to His incarnation Jesus had a life in heaven with His Father, a life, although now forever a human life, He resumed at His Ascension. Because He is now human, limited by a physical body that is constrained to one place, He sent to us His Spirit... His representative to bring us power, strength, understanding, and His presence... Hence the fulfillment of his promise" I will never forsake you not leave you".
But the physical Jesus who currently ministers on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary... He is soon to return personally to take us home with Him.

Personally i am with Christ right now, and today has enough trouble in it.
Christ is Spirit, right?

You might note how well you agree with Montezuma, who believed Quetzalcoatl was coming back to get him, too
i'm not sure how you could deny that this sounds much more like Death, More Abundantly than Life, more abundantly
or just reflect on Ezekiel ("I'm against...making ppl to fly like birds"),
or listen to how sure you seem to be about some imagined tomorrow,

He is soon to return personally to take us home with Him.

with you (all) at the head of the table of course right.
he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought

i can tell you with confidence that i don't know myself.
i guess since i'm here i could ask you for your date for this "personal return,"
surely you have a pretty good idea of when, right?

you say "soon," but i still see plenty of wars and rumors of wars, etc,
earthquakes and volcanoes and whatnot
so i'm curious how you get to "soon," when the Book says "the time is not yet" for those? ty

 

[bbyrd009]

I have always read them in context of Jesus revealing His credentials as the Son of God. He is explaining to Nicodemus His origins.

well, you can limit the Statement to that if you like, but that does not mean the statement was limited to that, right?
(Jesus, explaining Himself verbally to a Sanhedrin anyway, hmm)

That prior to His incarnation Jesus had a life in heaven with His Father

And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.

maybe you'll be the exception though, i don't know
but i srsly doubt it wadr

on earth, as it is in heaven
you and your sons will be here with me