If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[Triumph1300]

I need to get an internet protection order....I see your still stalking me.

Ok, listen, you are posting on a public forum.
So, you need to expect people to comment on your posts.
That's why it's called a "forum".
When people comment it has nothing to do with stalking.

And as far as Christianity is concerned,
the church started 2000 years ago with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you could change the tone of your posts and not call people "silly boys".

 

[Marymog]

Ok, listen, you are posting on a public forum.
So, you need to expect people to comment on your posts.
That's why it's called a "forum".
When people comment it has nothing to do with stalking.

And as far as Christianity is concerned,
the church started 2000 years ago with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you could change the tone of your posts and not call people "silly boys".

You are right. I should expect it, however, I should not expect nor deserve the trolling you do. So if your willing to stop trolling me I am willing to stop with the silly boy comments and the like. Fair enough???

I have pointed this out before and you have shown a lack of respect for my wishes so I sincerely hope you are serious this time and will respect me.

Internet troll: a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

Soooooo I ask again: Did the Holy Spirit decide if Catholics are wolves or sheep?

Playing fair....Mary

 

[Enoch111]

Soooooo I ask again: Did the Holy Spirit decide if Catholics are wolves or sheep?

While this question is not addressed to me, I will respond. Sheep are children of God, and only God knows which Catholics are sheep and which are not. It is not determined by their adherence to their church, but to their obedience to the Gospel and relationship to Christ.

As to wolves, that is a metaphor for false teachers, and there is no question that the pope and Catholic clergy are false teachers (and have been for ages).

Catholics (just like anyone else) have a duty to study the Bible independent of their Catechism, and determine from Scripture as to what is true and what is false. As I have pointed out in another thread, the CCC asserts that the sacraments are NECESSARY for salvation. But as the Scripture passage provided to refute that (Rom 10) clearly shows, sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation. And this is a critical teaching. Either the Bible (the Word of God) is true or the CCC is true. But every Catholic needs to know the truth and then reject what is false.

 

[Triumph1300]

While this question is not addressed to me, I will respond

Careful, you might be classified a troller.
The question was not addressed to me either,
but now I'm a troller because i commented on the question.

 

[Marymog]

While this question is not addressed to me, I will respond. Sheep are children of God, and only God knows which Catholics are sheep and which are not. It is not determined by their adherence to their church, but to their obedience to the Gospel and relationship to Christ.

As to wolves, that is a metaphor for false teachers, and there is no question that the pope and Catholic clergy are false teachers (and have been for ages).

Catholics (just like anyone else) have a duty to study the Bible independent of their Catechism, and determine from Scripture as to what is true and what is false. As I have pointed out in another thread, the CCC asserts that the sacraments are NECESSARY for salvation. But as the Scripture passage provided to refute that (Rom 10) clearly shows, sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation. And this is a critical teaching. Either the Bible (the Word of God) is true or the CCC is true. But every Catholic needs to know the truth and then reject what is false.

Thank you.

Who decides if we are obeying the Gospel and have a true relationship with Christ?

My Church says I am obeying the Gospel. Yours says you are. Which is right? How do we know?

YOU say the sacraments are not necessary for salvation. My church, and many others do. Why is your interpretation right and others wrong?

Mary

 

[epostle1]

BOL flatly called someone a liar for saying that she experienced something within her Parish. He didn't try and corroborate facts, or even show any manners, seemingly.

Every Catholic in the world, going back centuries, knows the homily is not in Latin. Misunderstanding is one thing, refusing to be corrected is something else. Ex-Catholics become bitter anti-Catholics when indoctrinated with fundie lies, and it's very frustrating when dealing with anti-Catholics of this type who use a false authority to authenticate their claims.

My only point has been to suggest that not every single Priest, service and building holds carbon copy preaching, ideas and beliefs, regardless of the standard line of the RCC. I didn't need to look any further than 2, and I didn't need to head for the top of the barrel, wherever that would take me....because two Catholic Priests outright admitted to thinking and believing something that you yourself say the RCC denies. That, sir, IS my point, my only point, and I dust my hands.

I scrolled back 5 pages and couldn't find where I said that. If I said that, I made a mistake. Using the quote feature removes speculating about what anyone said.

Yeah...I was NOT making a comment on the Church and homosexual marriage. Happy to get into it if you want, but I don't think this is the thread, or the place.
Plus, I'm not really sure where you get the "Australia is anti-Catholic" thing from.

I get that from the judicial anti-Catholicism in Australia, a gross miscarriage of justice, a witch-hunt, and a media lynch mob, who has dragged Cardinal Pell through the courts for years, with no evidence.
The War on Cardinal Pell
Can Cardinal Pell Ever Get a Fair Trial?

I think we can mutually agree to put this discussion to rest. To summarize my point: Catholics are free to disagree with the Church, we are not free to rebel.

May God bless you.

 

[aspen]

Argh! I don't know whether to roll my eyes or laugh. Perhaps I'll do both! You continue to miss my point! I'm not trying to prove "disunity of doctrine" or whatever. All I was pointing out was that...shocker...a few differ. And guess what? A few differed. And sure, the RCC may have sacked them promptly when they found out. They may have been entitled to. I don't know and for this conversation, I don't care. It's not my point, at all. BOL flatly called someone a liar for saying that she experienced something within her Parish. He didn't try and corroborate facts, or even show any manners, seemingly. My only point has been to suggest that not every single Priest, service and building holds carbon copy preaching, ideas and beliefs, regardless of the standard line of the RCC. I didn't need to look any further than 2, and I didn't need to head for the top of the barrel, wherever that would take me....because two Catholic Priests outright admitted to thinking and believing something that you yourself say the RCC denies. That, sir, IS my point, my only point, and I dust my hands.




Yeah...I was NOT making a comment on the Church and homosexual marriage. Happy to get into it if you want, but I don't think this is the thread, or the place.
Plus, I'm not really sure where you get the "Australia is anti-Catholic" thing from. Actually, I've been quite shocked ever since coming online, seeing how many Americans think Catholics are the sign of the beast, or whatever. Ridiculous. I am not anti-Catholic at all. I certainly don't agree with many of your doctrines, sure. But in the small town I live in, there are many Catholic people who are genuine, loving Christians whom I consider my brothers and sisters. When we get together and talk of Jesus, denomination doesn't really come into it so much, just that we are his.



Honestly, haven't you read all my "Protestantism is just as bad" statements all the way through? And you know why I've put them in? Because no matter the denomination you belong to, it's full of people. Sinful people. Sure, forgiven, regenerated people, but still struggling. Not a single denomination is going to be perfect. I could tell you that I currently attend a Baptist Church. But I'd have to warn you that the Australian Baptist Church is different, I believe to the American. And then also there is also a fairly big jump to how the "city Churches" roll, to the small town ones. I don't believe we have any serious objection to the doctrinal decisions they've made...yet. But I know the congregation I belong to...if necessary we will break away to stay true to scripture.
But...again...I sort of feel like you're focusing on what was definitely NOT my point! I haven't been trying to point out scandals in the RCC! I used an example to make my point, that is all. And I prefaced it with the fact that 'we' have just as many problems along the same line. So, please...try and stop seeing me as jabbing at your denomination, okay? I'm not. I was trying to ask BOL to show a little grace while talking to others. That's all.

Yes

You are trying to reason with people who are invested in being right

Snakes bite

 

[brakelite]

ah, i'd be curious to hear a testimony about them manifesting as "themselves." I have no experience or analogue for this, so maybe the testimony will help. No ppl were involved?

No people. Just by myself on one occasion. On others my wife and I both witnessed together. I have several instances etched into my memory, none of them particularly pleasant.
And one other occasion indeed involving a friend of ours speaking an ancient native language unknown to her but known to her husband. She was a friend. Yet the hatred that night she displayed was entirely supernatural. She had a slight build, but to all her husband strength to keep her from mauling me.

 

[brakelite]

I'm not sure if you mean single persons or the church.
I know catholics that have become protestant and protestants that have become catholic. Life can take us in different directions.

I don't believe the Protestant church could ever agree with the Catholic church and V V. There's just too much difference. In 1999 the Catholic church and the Lutheran church signed an agreement stating that the protest was over because they came to an agreement on Justification by faith alone. The CC always believed in that anyway...the big difference is in ongoing justification and I don't see any change in that in the CC.

I don't see how the CC could ever make a change regarding the Eucharist and confession. Those are two big stumbling blocks. We all love to talk about Mary, but that could be handled...already Catholics are told not to worship Mary.

What do you think?

That agreement between the Lutherans and the Catholics was a farce. The only people who think there was any agreement are those who don't understand what true Catholic theology is regarding justification. That agreement did not reflect Protestant understanding, the Lutherans capitulated. The protest is not over.

 

[Phoneman777]

Thats not good enough. Jesus founded a community that He said the gates of hell would not prevail against.
That means that community must still be around today else Jesus is a liar...

If Rome is your stumbling block then you should be in another apostolic community like the Orthodox...

If you're not in communion with the apostles then where are you?

Peace!

God's remnant today looks exactly like the church that existed when Jesus was here - in their beliefs and practices. Please consult Revelation 12:17 for the description of it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Fascinating. God considers anyone that opposes error and stands for truth to be members of "His Church"????

I guess that means the Catholic Church is His Church since it has been doing this for 2,000 years....or 1,500 years or whatever YOUR history book tells you when the Catholic Church started.

Silly boy....You can't have a Catholic Church without a Pope. They are one in the same.

You REALLY have no clue about your Christian History?? Do you??? I'm not even talking about Catholic History....I mean the History of Christianity.

You are right. I am embarrassed.....for you.

Mary

The Catholic church does not oppose error - it manufactures it with extreme prejudice. For example, please find me the Scripture that says we may by works obtain forgiveness that your Confessional supposedly affords, or that we must confess our sins to another sinful man who has probably just finished assaulting a young child (a recent PBS special expose on Catholicism told of a priest who EYE WITNESSED another priest get up from sexually abusing a child and dress himself and go immediately to officiate the eucharist) before sitting down in a Confessional as your advocate and intercessor.

BTW, where did I ever say the Catholic church can exist without a pope?

 

[Enoch111]

Who decides if we are obeying the Gospel and have a true relationship with Christ?

God decides if you are obeying the Gospel and if you have a true relationship with Christ.

My Church says I am obeying the Gospel. Yours says you are. Which is right? How do we know?

Since Scripture does NOT teach that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, but the CC teaches this, it is quite obvious as to who is right and who is wrong.

YOU say the sacraments are not necessary for salvation. My church, and many others do. Why is your interpretation right and others wrong?

It is not "my interpretation". That is why I said that every Catholic should study the NT Scriptures INDEPENDENTLY of the Catechism, and accept what it teaches without superimposing any preconceptions. Then it would be your interpretation based upon exactly what is stated in the Bible.

I could give you a couple of dozen Scriptures to show you that sacraments are not necessary for salvation, but if you discover them for yourself, you will be fully convinced. Start with Acts 16:30,31.

 

[brakelite]

You REALLY have no clue about your Christian History?? Do you??? I'm not even talking about Catholic History....I mean the History of Christianity.

Perhaps you would care to comment on my post #601.

 

[epostle1]

Yes

You are trying to reason with people who are invested in being right

Snakes bite

Everybody is "right". It's a question of being truthful. It's so very tempting to wield the truth like a baseball bat and not a beacon of light. We all make mistakes. Bringing a love/hate relation with the Church into an arena with lions is also a mistake.

 

[Naomi25]

I don't need to read articles. I know priests that don't agree with certain matters that the church teaches. This is coming out to the light with this new Pope who is liberal and has even changed the doctrine of receiving communion once divorced, even though traditional catholics refuse to accept this change --- it HAS happened.

Some bishops also allow this to happen. Big changes are taking place, what I'm saying is that there is OFFICIAL doctrine and official positions within the CC.

This is lacking in the Protestant churches or we wouldn't be debating doctrine all day long!

This is all I meant. Personally, and secretly or not, we can believe what we want or can accept...but I'm sorry that the Christian church is not seen as unified.
Is this hypocritical or is this human?

Hmm, this is actually an interesting point that I had not really spent any time considering before (now that I get your gist, sorry). And I suppose you are correct, to a point. Or maybe not? I think the Reformation made some startling breaks from the RCC, and once they managed to get the movement really established, there were many key doctrines that were seen as essential. In fact, there still are today. I suppose they would be what we call the "closed hand" issues...those essentials of faith that we would say if you don't believe, then you would not be a "Christian". Most Protestant Churches would probably enforce those essentials within their covenant members.
I think where we probably differ from the RCC, and why we've ended up having all the little "off-shoots" of "Protestantism", is because we do allow for differences and liberty within the "open-hand" issues. So we saw groups breaking off to suit each other there. But the more leniant we were in those issues, I suspect, the greater the chance was for the greater 'break-aways'....the differences in the essential issues, the ones that really matter. That's where we began to see what we would call the 'christian cults' begin to form. Bits and pieces of truth worked in around lots of areas of human made doctrine.
So...while we Protestants value our open hand liberty, there seems to be something to the stricter RCC approach!

 

[brakelite]

So...while we Protestants value our open hand liberty, there seems to be something to the stricter RCC approach!

One need only to witness the varied forms of Catholicism in indigenous communities all around the world to understand that there is no strict approach in doctrine within Catholicism...so long as everyone calls the Pope master.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, just go to biblehub, it's in the Greek in verse 19, 23.

ok Heb, as long as you can find it, that is the important part i s'pose, bam go with that

 

[Phoneman777]

I think this thread is proof enough that Protestants don't hate Catholics at all, but fully despise Catholic doctrine. However, certain Catholics here will continue to falsely accuse others of "hate", "bigotry", "intolerance", etc. Psychology 101 refers to this as "Projection", where these negative attitudes possessed by them (or the institutions they defend) are projected upon those whose attitudes are blameless. Count it all joy, Protestant brethren. Satan too painted God as:

• "cruel", by the false doctrine of Eternal Torment
• "unjust", by Jude's implication that doomed Satan protested God's decision to resurrect the body of equally guilty Moses (who later appeared with translated Elijah, both with glorified bodies, to Jesus and His companions)
• "prideful", by paganism's ancient idea that sacrifices were necessary to appease God's offended ego, rather than foreshadow His matchless love on Calvary's cruel, humiliating Cross.

We're in good company

 

[GodsGrace]

The Apostles had absolute power. I don't see any signs in scripture of them being corrupted. Maybe I missed it.

Now, instead of absolute power of ONE CHURCH, we have 1,000's of churches who believe they have absolute power with all claiming to have been enlightened by The Holy Spirit.

Do you believe The Church is corrupted?

Mary

Yes MM...
I believe the church WAS corrupted back when Luther had his protests.
It's also important to note that he did not want to leave the CC, the church forced him to leave and thus began the new movement.

Why did it spread so rapidly? Maybe because people back then were hungering for some real spirituality which the CC was not providing. You know very well that it was all rules and regulations and fear. This is not what Jesus meant for His church to teach.

Of course, we have the sin nature of man to deal with and much was done by individual persons, and there was no internet back then -- it wasn't easy for Rome to control everyone and I also wonder if it wanted to control everyone.

I also believe it was a mistake for the church to become involved in politics so that church-states evolved. Not only did the church affect the Kings of different countries, causing wars, but the church actually ruled many areas. One could not serve both God and mammon. This corrupted the church even after 1,500 AD.
Many sought power instead of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

While this question is not addressed to me, I will respond. Sheep are children of God, and only God knows which Catholics are sheep and which are not. It is not determined by their adherence to their church, but to their obedience to the Gospel and relationship to Christ.

As to wolves, that is a metaphor for false teachers, and there is no question that the pope and Catholic clergy are false teachers (and have been for ages).

Catholics (just like anyone else) have a duty to study the Bible independent of their Catechism, and determine from Scripture as to what is true and what is false. As I have pointed out in another thread, the CCC asserts that the sacraments are NECESSARY for salvation. But as the Scripture passage provided to refute that (Rom 10) clearly shows, sacraments are NOT necessary for salvation. And this is a critical teaching. Either the Bible (the Word of God) is true or the CCC is true. But every Catholic needs to know the truth and then reject what is false.

LOL
I know catholics who won't read a bible UNLESS there's a priest present!
I did a bible study on Mathew with some women friends (all catholics here) with the knowledge and consent of the priest (in my home) and some wouldn't come because he wasn't going to be there. It's probably not like this in the states, but catholics haven't been reading the bible for long and some don't even understand WHY it's good to know what it says.

As to the sacraments being necessary for salvation, do you have the paragraph you're depending on? I know that sacraments provide grace, not salvation. (except for baptism and confession - they're necessary for salvation).
If you don't have it readily avx, no problem ... I'll check out mine.