The Latest on Pre-Trib Rapture

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larry2

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You are turning Jesus, who showed up in the 70th week, into Antichrist, who did not show up in the middle of the 70th week.
No sir Dave, to me the time of the sacrifice being taken away is that we read of in Dan 8:11 where the little horn, the false prophet takes away the daily sacrifice for the period of 1290 days in the time of the end. (Dan 8:17)

In Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate (When is this Dave?) set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. I don't read of this occurring in Jesus' time here.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dear brother, if we don't agree, that is alright, and I thank you for attempting to show me what you believe to be the truth.
In Christ Jesus. :)
 
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Dave L

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No sir Dave, to me the time of the sacrifice being taken away is that we read of in Dan 8:11 where the little horn, the false prophet takes away the daily sacrifice for the period of 1290 days in the time of the end. (Dan 8:17)

In Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate (When is this Dave?) set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. I don't read of this occurring in Jesus' time here.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dear brother, if we don't agree, that is alright, and I thank you for attempting to show me what you believe to be the truth.
In Christ Jesus. :)
Regardless, the 70 weeks were contiguous and Jesus fulfilled the 70th week as planned. Any gap is without scriptural support and turning Jesus into Antichrist in 9:27 is borderline blasphemy as I see it. Plus it affects Revelation, adding things that will never happen, despite the warning against doing that.
 
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larry2

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turning Jesus into Antichrist in 9:27 is borderline blasphemy as I see it. Plus it affects Revelation, adding things that will never happen, despite the warning against doing that.
I certainly don't mean it as that. To me Daniel was told to seal certain things unto the end, and all the things pertaining to the abomination of desolation fit into that future time to come, especially unto Israel as a nation again. There are references to the middle of the week 1260 days, 1290 days, 2300 days of the sacrifice removed, etc. I do not see all this concerning Daniel's 490 years of blessings to come.

Love you brother in Jesus' name.
 

Enoch111

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Regardless, the 70 weeks were contiguous and Jesus fulfilled the 70th week as planned.
That is not true for the simple reason that everlasting righteousness has not been established on the earth as yet. Indeed, sin, evil, and unrighteousness are on the rise.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24).
 

Vexatious

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I certainly don't mean it as that. To me Daniel was told to seal certain things unto the end, and all the things pertaining to the abomination of desolation fit into that future time to come, especially unto Israel as a nation again. There are references to the middle of the week 1260 days, 1290 days, 2300 days of the sacrifice removed, etc. I do not see all this concerning Daniel's 490 years of blessings to come.

John, author of Revelation, was told not to seal things up because the time was at hand. Daniel, centuries earlier, was told to seal things up until the end. Do the math.

You say, "all the things pertaining to the abomination of desolation fit into that future time to come, especially unto Israel as a nation again". All you name is Israel coming as nation. Are you expecting someone to make the sands of Israel glow with nukes? The abomination of dispy doctrine claims those who attack Israel will be defeated, rather than them causing desolation.

What makes you think Israel has become a nation again in 1948, other than a name? This isn't a rhetorical question, yet you won't answer it. You can't. It isn't the Israel of God.

Daniel's 70 weeks ended in the first century.

Run away from anyone teaching you Antichristian dispy doctrine.
 

Enoch111

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Daniel's 70 weeks ended in the first century.
Kindly show us how and where EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS has been established on this earth, in every nation, in every individual, in every business, in every organization.

If you can't do so (which is what we expect) then it would be best to shut up about Dispensationalism.
 
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larry2

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What makes you think Israel has become a nation again in 1948, other than a name?
Hi Vexatious. I don't think all present Israel is the nation that will be saved in the millennium, but I wouldn't doubt that God had His hand in many returning to the pleasant land. Rom 11:5 tells us that there is a remmant remaining.

Daniel's 70 weeks ended in the first century.
I agree, and with Jesus dying, everlasting righteousness came to all that would partake.
To me Dan 9:24 is satisfied in everything accomplished Jesus set out to do.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Seven blessings here, and yet some will say there is still sin, but it does not remain on those believing on Christ.

All you name is Israel coming as nation. Are you expecting someone to make the sands of Israel glow with nukes?
I'm sorry I don't understand your question, but Israel has been blinded in part at this present time until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. (Rom 11:25, and the context of Romans chapter eleven is especially about Israel future.)
I might ask who you think will be the first of Israel shown returning. I believe them to be the 144,000 caught up unto the heavenly Jerusalem with Jesus in Rev 14:1, also said to be firstfruits unto God, and to the Lamb in Rev 14:4. Remember that these are those sealed in Revelation chapter seven from all the tribes of Israel.

You did mention the sands of Israel glowing with nukes, and I really have no idea, but it is said that they will be an army of 200 million come against them (Rev 9:16), and they will kill a third of all mankind (Rev 9:16). That just gives Israel employment for the next seven months.
Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
Isa 66:8 . . . shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Thanks again for your input Brother Vexatious in Jesus' name. :)
 

larry2

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Run away from anyone teaching you Antichristian dispy doctrine.
Hey, I just really took notice of your comment above. I'm assuming the word DISPY you're using is an acronym for the word DISPENSATIONS. May I have your ideas, and/or opposition to that synonym used for an order of God's work through the ages?

Thanks.
 
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Dave L

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That is not true for the simple reason that everlasting righteousness has not been established on the earth as yet. Indeed, sin, evil, and unrighteousness are on the rise.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24).
Everlasting righteousness IS established in the kingdom of God now present but hidden from those not born again.
 
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Dave L

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I certainly don't mean it as that. To me Daniel was told to seal certain things unto the end, and all the things pertaining to the abomination of desolation fit into that future time to come, especially unto Israel as a nation again. There are references to the middle of the week 1260 days, 1290 days, 2300 days of the sacrifice removed, etc. I do not see all this concerning Daniel's 490 years of blessings to come.

Love you brother in Jesus' name.
We need to anchor Revelation and Daniel to Jesus and not take them beyond what he says. Jesus did not mention anything approaching the conjectures of today's prophecy buffs.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Why don't you interpret the actual Scriptures line by line given instead of "we are all dead to our bodies"? Looks like you don't really want to accept what is clearly spelled out in the Bible.

It does not matter what you heard or did not hear. Take the Scriptures given and tell us what they mean, and when that will become a reality. Line by line.
Them that sleep is pointing out to that they are dead, past away from the living.

No one is going to be raptured up alive as many are saying nowadays, people are telling me that they could be driving along in their car and bingo they have vanished and what they have on will be the only thing left on the seat, and I seen this same type of rubbish in the Simpsons cartoon, so people do believe it. left below I think it's called.
left behind I think is a religious mob that call it.

Do you think that people are going to meet the Lord in the Air ?
Do you believe that Jesus is coming in the clouds ?

Jesus is going to meet them in the air means in the Holy Spirit and the coming in the clouds means his majesty.
So the only way one can come to Jesus is in the Holy Spirit as to who he truly is in his Majesty.
That's how you get Born Again, the Holy Spirit comes in his Majesty and bingo you are truly Saved. I can tell you that it is something to behold and you know that you have been saved and you can not have your faith in Jesus Christ undermined ever because you know who he truly is totally it's 100% not 99% or 101% because there is no such thing as 101% as the mathematically challenged would only say such.
When I hear people say they gave it 110% etc ? really !

The only way we are going to get our act together is in Jesus Christ and not getting side tracked with nothing other, because lets say that a disaster comes like how WW2 was created and I know that was all planed by Satanist years in advance and it went all to plan like clock work, the same will happen in stage 3 with the help of religious nuts worshiping Talmud so called Jews and there indoctrinating people to be fools with all sorts of great delusions like Political Correctness, that crap started in communist Russia then Hitler and his Zionist mates used the same PC tools to brainwash with and this bag of tricks comes with all Socialist Governments. they are masters of create trouble and splitting people apart, not to mention that the way they do it is art form, I have to give it to them they are fantastic in how they can delude the masses. but take away Political Correctness out of the bag and they are finished because only freedom of speech will destroy such Satanist and they fear that once they are exposed for who they truly are them the game is up.
They have created a image and you must smash the image, they can only hide behind smoke and mirrors.
One must only have Jesus Christ in your life first and foremost he is the only path to follow regardless of what people may make out about so called Jews and such delusions of nonsense.
The Jews can't save themselves without all the USA taxpayers money that is given to them, let alone all the rest of the Nations that give them every year. not to mention that the wealthiest 2% of the world are mainly Jews, what do they give them in the State they call Israel ? nothing, they don't give they only take and laugh at just how stupid the tax payers are and they hate your guts because they do not respect you, I have talked to many very wealthy Jews who own houses all over the world, say to me that they are not going to pay one cent tax, as they take it personal to be devoted to that point of view because they despise all such people in this nation as fools.

Maybe the Jews are right you are all there niggers, that's what Goyim means cattle that they own, that's the way they see it, you are there Slaves and are just to stupid to understand that. so fools look to the satanic Jews as there masters because they are to deranged to come to Jesus as your Lord.
The Satanic Jew can not sustain himself without sucking the life blood out of his victims as he is just a leach, once he has destroyed the host he has to find another and that's why the Jews have been kicked out of every nation that welcomed them in, look at all the times they have been kicked out in history as they tried to take over the government and got caught out ripping people off and driving them into the ground, they are relentless and they hate everything that Jesus Christ stands for and people can not see that such people are Anti-Christ ! and look up to that madness. The hatred that the Talmud Jews have for Jesus is just astounding it's just the same with the Atheist that I have come across and Christians that idolise Jews as there salvation well they must be under great delusions as the Bible points out.
Nothing good is going to come out of anything that is Anti-Christ, it never has and never will regardless of what one may claim.

I just can't believe it that Christians can look to the Jews, it's just astounding, it just blows me away, I can understand Atheist would look to them as for the love of greed and power, not to mention that they are in the Churches for the same and they never preach Jesus as the Christ, but a social gospel that leads all astray from God.
The True Jews believe in God but they do not know him, because no one comes to the Father but through is only begotten Son. and there is only one begotten Son who is the Beginning and the End, not two Sons, they that claim he is coming in the flesh again are lost and they can't be Born Again because they are looking in the wrong place. they are looking to a mans works and have not the Holy Spirit with in them.
 

Enoch111

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No one is going to be raptured up alive
Reggie,
To refute what you have stated above, here is the verse:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...

If God says this and you do not believe it, then that is UNBELIEF. I gave you the entire Scripture passages earlier, but if you wish to reject the Word of God, then you will remain in your delusion.
 

Enoch111

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Everlasting righteousness IS established in the kingdom of God now present but hidden from those not born again.
You know this is false since you yourself are not sinlessly perfect, neither is any other Christian, let alone the whole of humanity. When Christians twist the meaning of Scripture, they are playing a dangerous game for the sake of their egos.
 
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Nancy

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Why has nobody mentioned the subject of Gods 7 Angels and 7 bowls of His wrath? It seems that would have to play into this rapture doctrine, as those are what the Church hopes to escape.
 

BobRyan

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Why has nobody mentioned the subject of Gods 7 Angels and 7 bowls of His wrath? It seems that would have to play into this rapture doctrine, as those are what the Church hopes to escape.

1 Thess 4:13-end the saints are raptured at the 2nd coming of Christ.
Matthew 24:29-31 the saints are raptured at the 2nd coming of Christ,
Revelation 19 - the 2nd coming is after the 7 bowls, 7 plagues of Rev 16.
 

Enoch111

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the saints are raptured at the 2nd coming of Christ
Since the saints come WITH Christ at His second coming, they cannot possibly be raptured at the same time (see Rev 19). The Marriage of the Lamb must take place before the second coming, which means that the Rapture must take place before the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.
 

larry2

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Blessings all. I'm not addressing this to anyone in particular, but since John is shown saints before the throne in heaven at different times; i.e. the 24 elders, four living ones, the great multitude, and the 144,000, doesn't it make sense that Jesus might appear coming for His own at different times.

Like the last trump suggests to me that there are prior trumps, and yet I believe the order of those raptured will remain subject to the order of 1 Thes 4:16-17; the dead bodies in Christ first, and then any of us that might remain alive are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. o_O
 
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Dave L

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You know this is false since you yourself are not sinlessly perfect, neither is any other Christian, let alone the whole of humanity. When Christians twist the meaning of Scripture, they are playing a dangerous game for the sake of their egos.
God sees us clothed with his own righteousness in Christ. As though we never sinned and are equal to God in purity.
 

Enoch111

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God sees us clothed with his own righteousness in Christ. As though we never sinned and are equal to God in purity.
Going off on a tangent does not work. We are talking about your actual righteousness, not the imputed righteousness of Christ. Are you sinlessly perfect 24/7?

Claiming that everlasting righteousness has already been established on earth means one of two things (1) spiritual dishonesty or (2) delusional fantasy.
 
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Vexatious

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To refute what you have stated above, here is the verse:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...

The pretrib rapture is a devilish lie that brings mockery to Christianity and causes Christians to sabotage our future.

When Jesus tells of the tribulation, he speaks to his disciples and describes what Christians will suffer, and what they need to do about it. No mention of a pretrib rapture. Go read Luke 21 without pretrib blinders. READ!

Read the context of "we which are alive...." and see it has nothing to do with escaping tribulation. Read it and see what it's about. READ!

"We which are alive" includes Paul himself. You know grammatically it does. Do you think Paul was raptured alive? If you've done your job and read the context, you know that this HOPE Paul speaks of applies to ALL Christians, contrary to what the devil tells us. "We who are alive" means those who haven't died yet, Paul's audience vs. " those who have fallen asleep." It doesn't mean anyone will be taken up alive.

If you've read the context, you'd also see that this is after the resurrection of the dead, which is after the millennium (see Rev 20), not something that will precede a tribulation. READ!

Every pastor who teaches a pretrib rapture will go to the place of eternal fire assigned to liars, unless they repent. All of the doctrines of modern Dispensationalism are lies out of the pit of Hell.
 
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