Calvinism?

[bbyrd009]

Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every

interesting, didn't know that. Looks like just plain "all?"

 

[Enoch111]

All what? = All JUDGEMENT.

This is what we can call a true MISREPRESENTATION of Gospel truth. Looks like you must be having a bad day.

The Gospel is for salvation, not judgment. But there are two thoughts side by side in verses 31 and 32:

VERSE 31: (1) the sins of the world would be judged at the cross ("the judgment of this world"), and (2) Satan ("the prince of this world") would be "cast out" in that the works of the devil would also be judged at the cross -- that through death Christ would destroy the works of the devil.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (Heb 2:14,15)

VERSE 32: When Christ would be crucified (by being lifted up from the earth), He would draw all men to Himself as the Savior of the world. All men are to "behold the Lamb of God" and be saved (just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, and Christ used this symbol for Himself).

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

If that "all" meant judgment, how is it that every Bible version says either "all men" or "all people"? Is everyone in error except you?

 

[Helen]

If that "all" meant judgment, how is it that every Bible version says either "all men" or "all people"? Is everyone in error except you?

Not everyone....but most people.
I like mine best ....it includes ALL .

 

[Nancy]

Once you're convicted of your sins it's the greatest "Light bulb moment" of your life. Once you realize the state of your deadness and evil in sin you no longer desire to stay in that situation. All our our hearts are hard. The power of the Holy Spirit can break any heart to repentance. The apostle Paul was the chief of sinners.

Many see no need to repent or that they're wrong. That's the fallen spiritual state of man.

When people ask me, "how do I become a Christian" I ask them, do you know you're a sinner? If they stumble over that and try to justify how they're not that bad, then how can true conversion occur?

Well, at that point, it couldn't occur. I will say that, when I did heed His calling me, His light was gradual. Maybe He did not want to overwhelm me with ALL of my sin at once as, I probably would have had a stroke! The more His light shines through us, the more our sin is exposed, and the more we SEE. It is quite the wow moment each time you realize that something you once thought as harmless, becomes a terrible sin and, we find we hate what we once didn't even bat an eye a! Sin does not fit the Christian, time for a whole new wardrobe! YAY!

"The apostle Paul was the chief of sinners." Yes he was, and proud of it too! LOL..j/k!
Yet, his heart was not hardened...he was doing what he THOUGHT was pleasing to God by killing Christians. I have met a few people who do not think they are sinners, they are their own judge. Ha, good luck there!!!
How many times do you think the Holy Spirit will convict the heart of sinners before stopping? How many times before one tests Him too many?
I believe a mans conscience can be so "seared as with a hot iron" that he will no longer even be able to hear His call.

 

[Nancy]

In this passage "all men" cannot mean "each and every." If this were so then no one can go to hell. In fact, "all men in this verse pertains to "all believers."

For many are called but few are chosen.

To God Be The Glory

Any man who is to receive salvation must first be called. The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin. The Gospel is heard and then rejected because the person loved the darkness rather than the Light. They do not want to REPENT. God knew most would choose the darkness over the light. Jesus sacrifice was for ALL MEN, few are "chosen" (saved) because most preferred to remain in sin.

 

[Nancy]

Not everyone....but most people.
I like mine best ....it includes ALL .

 

[Helen]

Well, at that point, it couldn't occur. I will say that, when I did heed His calling me, His light was gradual. Maybe He did not want to overwhelm me with ALL of my sin at once as, I probably would have had a stroke! The more His light shines through us, the more our sin is exposed, and the more we SEE.

God moves in mysterious ways...we are all so different....and His dealing are so different.

My sin didn't bother me at all ...I wasn't 'conscious' of sin.
I think I must have been born believing that Jesus died for our sin, and took our punishment.

What brought me to my knees was the thought of separation from God..and not ending up in heaven. I had a longing for God...I didn't even think of sin until after I was saved....


I don't think that any of the people that I led to the Lord...did I tell them what sinner they were...I always spoke about the glories of being "one with Him"...or being left out.

 

[Nancy]

God moves in mysterious ways...we are all so different....and His dealing are so different.

My sin didn't bother me at all ...I wasn't 'conscious' of sin.
I think I must have been born believing that Jesus died for our sin, and took our punishment.

What brought me to my knees was the thought of separation from God..and not ending up in heaven. I had a longing for God...I didn't even think of sin until after I was saved....


I don't think that any of the people that I led to the Lord...did I tell them what sinner they were...I always spoke about the glories of being "one with Him"...or being left out.

"What brought me to my knees was the thought of separation from God"
This still brings me to my knees, lol. Talk about being HOMESICK??!!

 

[Nancy]

Because we are all sinners and must give account for our sins. If Jesus did not redeem our sins then we are already condemned. The wages of sin is death.

To God Be The Glory

Well, Praise God that I know for a fact that I am saved, and I am redeemed, Amen! It's a good thing that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the World! “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2 Now that IS good news.

 

[Heart2Soul]

From being involved for about 2.5 years in a Reformed Baptist church in which my pastor was/is a 5 pointer. For the 6 or so weeks of listening to his sermons, I decided to make an appointment with him, just to introduce myself and give him a little background from whence I came (I love that phrase ) During our visit, he told me he was a Calvinist. I knew what a Calvinist was, from a former church and my own reading...library then, lol.
So, as I had not known previously that he had those beliefs, and his sermons did not include any Calvinistic "teachings"...I decided to continue attending for over 2 years. (shocking even myself!, lol) after much prayer. After awhile, I did start noticing undertones creeping in here and there, subtle, but obvious to me! As of almost 6 weeks ago, I am at a different and Awesome local body, I have been there before but was way too far for me so I stopped going there and watched online. They now have a campus like, 10 minutes from me! I fit like a glove there and know several people as well. Never fit in at the other although there are several brothers and sisters there that I miss and are still in touch with. I left on very good terms with the pastor and will continue to support them in what way I can.
I will share a short, simple article in which my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented. So, that said, I hope this thread can be maturely, humbly, and respectfully discussed. Replies are all welcome I just ask that if things get nasty-PLEASE take it to P.M.?
Any Calvinists out there just remember, I love you ♥
Arguments against Calvinism and Predestination

Sorry I don't make comments against other faiths.....especially since I know nothing about them....besides it isn't doing anything to glorify God.

 

[Helen]

Sorry I don't make comments against other faiths.....especially since I know nothing about them....besides it isn't doing anything to glorify God.

I think that would have been better unsaid.....I don’t feel that glorified God either.

If you knew Nancy’s heart better you would know that she is not a judgmental person. Plus the thread had moved on from there....why bother to bring it up!

 

[Heart2Soul]

I think that would have been better unsaid.....I don’t feel that glorified God either.

If you knew Nancy’s heart better you would know that she is not a judgmental person. Plus the thread had moved on from there....why bother to bring it up!

it wasn't an attack on her....I am just replying my thoughts....why did you think it was? I am just reading this thread for the first time…..

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Nancy.….I was not attacking you....I had just replied on your other thread that no one responded to and you were disappointed so I said to myself I will make it a point to look at Nancy's threads and comment.....I do apologize if you were offended.....I know you have a gentle spirit and a tender heart towards the things of God.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Do you believe in Universal Atonement (everyone will be saved)? Limited atonement is misleading in its name. There is nothing limited about the power of Jesus' death. What it is stating is that Jesus died for His Sheep, the elect. There is no salvation outside of Jesus, His death secured the salvation of those who the Father draws to Him and believe in His name.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him...John 6:44. Jesus was pretty clear on that

I was hoping to read through this thread without weighing in, but here I am, needing to go to sleep and feeling the need to comment on what you said here. First things first, years ago I attended a conservative PCA Presbyterian church and got a BIG dose of Calvinism there.

My understanding of Limited Atonement is that Christ died ONLY for the elect. IOW, He did not die for those who would never be saved. My pastor and I discussed this point of Calvinism many times and went round and round about it (while remaining friends). In light of John 3:16 and knowing the fairness and love of God, I never could accept this doctrine.

The sad part of this story is, some elders in the church who were diehard Calvinists thought that the pastor wasn't Calvinist enough and ran him off. Some of the most hateful, dogmatic Christians I've ever met or talked to have been diehard Calvinists. I'm not sure why this is the case, and I'm not implying that I think you're hateful.

I guess I would just say, why identify with a fallible man (Calvin) and not with Jesus Christ alone? We are all Christians, those of us who are truly saved. Why use labels that divide us? Our understanding of the scriptures will never match up 100 percent (at least not during this earth life), but the body of Christ is one body.

WE ARE HIS BODY!

 

[LC627]

I was hoping to read through this thread without weighing in, but here I am, needing to go to sleep and feeling the need to comment on what you said here. First things first, years ago I attended a conservative PCA Presbyterian church and got a BIG dose of Calvinism there.

My understanding of Limited Atonement is that Christ died ONLY for the elect. IOW, He did not die for those who would never be saved. My pastor and I discussed this point of Calvinism many times and went round and round about it (while remaining friends). In light of John 3:16 and knowing the fairness and love of God, I never could accept this doctrine.

The sad part of this story is, some elders in the church who were diehard Calvinists thought that the pastor wasn't Calvinist enough and ran him off. Some of the most hateful, dogmatic Christians I've ever met or talked to have been diehard Calvinists. I'm not sure why this is the case, and I'm not implying that I think you're hateful.

I guess I would just say, why identify with a fallible man (Calvin) and not with Jesus Christ alone? We are all Christians, those of us who are truly saved. Why use labels that divide us? Our understanding of the scriptures will never match up 100 percent (at least not during this earth life), but the body of Christ is one body.

WE ARE HIS BODY!

We do identify with Jesus alone. The label "Calvinist" is sometimes necessary so other believers know who they are talking to and where we fall into certain categories of belief that other Believers may not hold to. That is ironic because some of the most hateful, dogmatic Christians I've encountered were non-Calvinist who unloaded their emotional baggage on me for believing what I do. It goes both way. Not everyone is humble or loving as they should, in fact, we all fall short of that in life.

God is love...Yes that is true but God is also so much more than just love. You may not take the position I do but that does not leave you off the hook when others question you on your God of love. God knew everything before creating and still made the world knowing billions would go to hell. God approved the slaughter of many in the Conquest of Canaan (women and children too) and He Himself wiped out all mankind in the flood. So, for the reasons you don't accept what I believe, there are many, many more who won't accept your view of a loving God held in light to certain scriptures.

 

[Episkopos]

We do identify with Jesus alone. The label "Calvinist" is sometimes necessary so other believers know who they are talking to and where we fall into certain categories of belief that other Believers may not hold to. That is ironic because some of the most hateful, dogmatic Christians I've encountered were non-Calvinist who unloaded their emotional baggage on me for believing what I do. It goes both way. Not everyone is humble or loving as they should, in fact, we all fall short of that in life.

God is love...Yes that is true but God is also so much more than just love. You may not take the position I do but that does not leave you off the hook when others question you on your God of love. God knew everything before creating and still made the world knowing billions would go to hell. God approved the slaughter of many in the Conquest of Canaan (women and children too) and He Himself wiped out all mankind in the flood. So, for the reasons you don't accept what I believe, there are many, many more who won't accept your view of a loving God held in light to certain scriptures.

Quite a scary thought....people won't accept the idea of a loving God.

 

[Mjh29]

Quite a scary thought....people won't accept the idea of a loving God.

No, no... we accept a loving God. Just not an ONLY loving God. We understand that God is just.

 

[Mjh29]

I was hoping to read through this thread without weighing in, but here I am, needing to go to sleep and feeling the need to comment on what you said here. First things first, years ago I attended a conservative PCA Presbyterian church and got a BIG dose of Calvinism there.

My understanding of Limited Atonement is that Christ died ONLY for the elect. IOW, He did not die for those who would never be saved. My pastor and I discussed this point of Calvinism many times and went round and round about it (while remaining friends). In light of John 3:16 and knowing the fairness and love of God, I never could accept this doctrine.

The sad part of this story is, some elders in the church who were diehard Calvinists thought that the pastor wasn't Calvinist enough and ran him off. Some of the most hateful, dogmatic Christians I've ever met or talked to have been diehard Calvinists. I'm not sure why this is the case, and I'm not implying that I think you're hateful.

I guess I would just say, why identify with a fallible man (Calvin) and not with Jesus Christ alone? We are all Christians, those of us who are truly saved. Why use labels that divide us? Our understanding of the scriptures will never match up 100 percent (at least not during this earth life), but the body of Christ is one body.

WE ARE HIS BODY!

1.) Hate goes both ways. For instance, many times I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with an Arminian, who then proceedes to berate me and call me a God hater. Heck, on this very forum, you can clearly see that Calvinists are not well accepted.

2.) John 3:16, the world for world means cosmos, or universe. God loved his creation too much to allow it to suffer for the sins of man. Because of Christs sacrifice, the whole universe will one day be made perfect again.

3.) Love is not giving everyone salvation. As I have stated previously;
- If Jesus died for all men, and all men are not saved, What happened?
-If Chdist did not save a specific people, but made us saveable, it is ultimately our choice, not his blood, that saved. If christ died for all, I am saved because I chose Him, not because He saved me. This is works righteousness, and I am sure that any christian who llves Christ would reject such a claim. Adminianism always breeds self righteousness.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

We do identify with Jesus alone. The label "Calvinist" is sometimes necessary so other believers know who they are talking to and where we fall into certain categories of belief that other Believers may not hold to. That is ironic because some of the most hateful, dogmatic Christians I've encountered were non-Calvinist who unloaded their emotional baggage on me for believing what I do. It goes both way. Not everyone is humble or loving as they should, in fact, we all fall short of that in life.

God is love...Yes that is true but God is also so much more than just love. You may not take the position I do but that does not leave you off the hook when others question you on your God of love. God knew everything before creating and still made the world knowing billions would go to hell. God approved the slaughter of many in the Conquest of Canaan (women and children too) and He Himself wiped out all mankind in the flood. So, for the reasons you don't accept what I believe, there are many, many more who won't accept your view of a loving God held in light to certain scriptures.

In a rush to defend Calvin, you missed my main point. Why divide the body of Christ with man’s understanding of the scriptures. When we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, it will not be as Calvinists or Arminians!

 

[Episkopos]

1.) Hate goes both ways. For instance, many times I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with an Arminian, who then proceedes to berate me and call me a God hater. Heck, on this very forum, you can clearly see that Calvinists are not well accepted.

2.) John 3:16, the world for world means cosmos, or universe. God loved his creation too much to allow it to suffer for the sins of man. Because of Christs sacrifice, the whole universe will one day be made perfect again.

3.) Love is not giving everyone salvation. As I have stated previously;
- If Jesus died for all men, and all men are not saved, What happened?
-If Chdist did not save a specific people, but made us saveable, it is ultimately our choice, not his blood, that saved. If christ died for all, I am saved because I chose Him, not because He saved me. This is works righteousness, and I am sure that any christian who llves Christ would reject such a claim. Adminianism always breeds self righteousness.

The fact remains that men create extreme doctrines based on a lack of understanding of God's ways. So then if your experience or your understanding lines up with that man-made identifier...then people hop on board now convinced that they have the truth in the matter.
The fact is Jesus did die for more people than just Christians. He died for ALL men. Some who do not presently follow Christ (who is unknown to them) will also be saved...they who DO what Jesus asks.

Imagine going to West Point military academy. (I'm not an American but I have heard about this place). Now a person who goes there looks at the whole outside world as civilian. But upon graduation the new candidate sees that there is a whole aspect of the military that knows nothing of West Point. There are the enlisted men AND other branches of the forces.

So it is with Christianity.

We have been given access to the school of Christ. Very few will graduate from it. It is an exclusive training ground for overcomers who will one day rule over all others in creation.


So then Christianity is like an officer class. A ruling class. Not just a military class.

Others can also enlist.