The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

[Naomi25]

You are trying use verse of different meaning, different contexts and different uses to interpret Revelations 3:10. That is not valid.

It's completely valid. And I'm not attempting to use the different contexts of the different verses to prove my point in Rev 3:10, all I am showing is that in Revelation, the phrase "those who dwell on the earth" is consistently used as the wicked inhabitants of the earth. Let's look at them again, since you doubt me:

They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” -Revelation 6:10

Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!” -Revelation 8:13

and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 11:10

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. -Revelation 13:8

and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. -Revelation 13:14

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. -Revelation 17:8

Every time, it refers to the wicked. So, how is my point not valid? The phrase can clearly be interpreted as speaking about only the wicked and not the just.

I covered the words meaning some of the verse says. So what you think does not override what the verses say and mean. You cannot invent your own word means and rules of grammar.

I'm not attempting to. At all. All I'm pointing out is that you cannot force a strict interpretation upon a text when it, in fact, allows other possibilities. It's like having a sentence like "he was injured", and insisting that it means he's about to die. Well...no. It just says he was injured. It could mean he just stubbed his toe. When you come to a sentence that doesn't say exactly what you are trying to claim it does (it does not say "the Church will be raptured, but you are insisting that HAS to be the conclusion of what it means) then you yourself are playing with the 'rules of words and grammar'. Revelation itself (and therefore Christ and John) tell us what "dwellers on earth" mean, and as I've repeatedly pointed out from other scriptures, we know that God has and can, keep his own safe from judgements...either his, or others. But there is nothing specifically in the text that DEMANDS a removal from earth. It simply doesn't say it. The only way you get there is if you already assume it.

You just changed the verses. It is not limited too wicked only.

Oh, I did not. Go and read them again.

The whole world is the specific location.

Yes, so what? Can't God protect us from what happens here? He is going to protect the believing Jews, isn't he? That's what you claim? You cannot claim one without allowing the other. It totally blows your logic out of the water.

That your issue is you don't want accept that reality.

Reality is not my problem. If reality is that God will, and does, Rapture us out, I'll be as chuffed as the next guy and won't give a second's thought to "but hang on, I thought it had to go like this...!!"
My point is only this....you continously put into the text what it doesn't outright say. It's not there!! It assumes only. And there is only so many times one can "assume" something from a text before you have to question it. So all those other times, when it doesn't outright mention a Pre-trib rapture of the Church, or a separation between Church and Israel, and all those other things? How many assumptions can there be? How many "reading between the lines" should a person accept before they begin to wonder if this dog don't hunt?

No, it is about what God is judging and destroying. Do not equate the flood and the tribulation. They are different.

Hey, you made it about the fish. My point all along was that God kept Noah safe during his judgement on the earth. And it doesn't have to be exactly the same as the "tribulation". All it has to do is serve as an example of what God can do, and has done. Which it does.

There is no leeway. Out of never means in and through nothing.

Except when the words mean there is.
Remember the words? You like word rules.
téreó: τηρέω: I keep, guard, observe, watch over. (strongs 5083)
ek or ex: ἐκ, ἐξ: from out, out from among, from (strongs 1537)
So, it could be "I keep out of", or it could be "I guard from" or "Observe from" or "watch over from among".
Thems the word rules.

They were not under god's judgment/testing. Different situation.

So, you're saying God can protect from bad kings fire, but not from his own judgements? Sure it's a different situation, but the outcome is rather the same, wouldn't you think? God protects. And he doesn't have to do it by yanking those here off the planet?

But even then, the word was never limited to Christian.
Most assuredly does when Israel has taken over and the rapture has happened.

That matters how? And it still doesn't address my point that the word "church" being gone doesn't mean a thing. Still dodging that. And saying that 'Israel takes over once the Rapture happens', as an explination doesn't explain it. Because we then go right back to the problem of....pin the tail on the scripture that doesn't show that. Yeah, I think there are scriptures that say God will turn his attention back towards Israel at the time of the end. But there is nothing...but assumption again...that says that the Church HAS to be gone for that to happen. It's not there.
And if what I'm doing is so full of holes...why don't you show me the verses to prove it.
Seriously. I'm probably frustrating the snot out of you, and I'm not doing it JUST to frustrate you. I actually like Dispensationalists. I like their passion and their vision of the future. But I just can't get around the massive holes in their end times system. It's a nice system, it sounds great on the surface and I can't fault people for believing in it or wanting to believe in it. But unless someone can give me solid, biblical answers to these massive, gaping holes, I just can't support it. But...i'd like those scriptures. I haven't ever been given them yet, but I suppose I can live in hope that one day someone will show me enough proof for me to let things lie. But for the time being, I just feel like I need to point out the holes.

 

[Naomi25]

Context is good.

See post 106. Your text.
See post 117. The context I posted to.

I do not have to prove the Rapture of Christ's Church.
I simply believe in the Rapture of Christ's Church.

Actually it is more.

Speaking of the NT forward...

A man having BELIEF ONLY, is one thing.
Belief ONLY, in God.
Belief ONLY, in Jesus.

Or A man having BELIEF IN BOTH.

A man can STOP at any time having Belief.

A man having BELIEF, ONLY in God or Jesus;
And such man COMMITTED, ONLY TO God or Jesus.

That is a mans CHOICE.
A man COMMITTED to God ONLY;
Does so, according to the Law.
A man COMMITTED to Jesus ONLY;
Does so, according to False Teaching.

A man Can STOP BELIEVING ONLY AT ANY TIME!

NT Scripture IS VERY CLEAR...
To Become SAVED and BORN AGAIN requires....
Belief IN the Father God.
And
Belief IN Jesus
And
A Testiment OF COMMITMENT.

So to say there IS NO Division among PEOPLE or among BELIEVERS, is FALSE.

Saying one is a BELIEVER is subjective...
VOID OF THE FACTS.

Believer IN WHAT? God only? Jesus only? Allah? Buddha?

Committed to WHAT?

It does matter IF one is Jew or Gentile...
Precisely because the WHAT IS dependant upon WHAT the individual Jew or Gentile;
Believes IN
And
IS Committed TO.

A Jew or Gentile that Believes;
IN GOD the Father,
IN Jesus the Christ,
AND IS Commited to the Father & the Christ;
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between the
Jew and Gentile THEN!

THEY BOTH, Jew and Gentile have Become,
Forgiven, Saved, Born Again, and a Member of Christ's Church.....and are NOT subject to the WRATH of God.
They, as IN the Day of Noah, ARE SAVED, and RISEN UP ABOVE THE EARTH, as Tribulation Begins upon the Earth.
A JEW, Believing and Committed TO GOD ONLY, and NOT Christ Jesus....
Shall suffer a PORTION of the Beginning Tribulation.
They are the heaviest concentration IN Jerusalem and Judea.
They are the primary targets of the World.
They are warned to run to the hills.
They shall be primarily ministered to BY Gods Chosen 144,000.
They shall ESCAPE taking the MARK OF THE BEAST.
They primarily shall be CONVERTED, believing in BOTH God and Christ.
They LIKE all Gentiles who Believe and Commit SHALL Become Forgiven, Saved and Born Again and receive the Seal of God.
They SHALL be BODILY KILLED, as will ALL on Earth, who reject the mark of the Beast.
Their Saved soul and Quickened (Born Again spriit) shall Depart their Dead Bodies and GO TO God IN Heaven....(This occurs DURING the first part of the Tribulation, 5th/6th seal opening).....(The Tribulation begins with the opening of the First Seal)

THEN WILL THE Saved and Born Again Jews and Gentiles, BE Above the Earth, While the Wrath of God INCREASES, upon the corrupt Earth, and Corrupt men Left on Earth.

I have said Repeatedly;
God has an ORDER, a WAY, of what APPLIES to Individuals.
All Scripture is True, Yet ALL Scripture DOES NOT APPLY to every Individual.
The Individual chooses WHAT TO BELIEVE, WHAT Applies to Him, BY WHAT and WHEN he Chooses to COMMIT TO.

And WHAT men Choose to Believe AND Commit to....
Absolutely DOES cause DIVISION among men.

Perhaps you did not know...The Jews are Gods First Chosen People....and VERY FEW, have come into Belief IN Christ Jesus....and they CAN NOT enter INTO Christ's Kingdom, WITHOUT Belief IN Christ Jesus.

Gentiles primarily are the ONES, Already, believing and committing TO God and Christ Jesus....THEY are ALREADY PREPARED according to Gods REQUIREMENT to Be REDEEMED, Taken, Raised Up ....

While God completes the NEXT order of Saving and Removing Faithful and Committed JEWS, UP above the Earth.

Then shall the INTENSE suffering VIA Gods Wrath befall the Earth and the People remaining on Earth.

God is NOT ON the Earth, while He is unleashing His Wrath upon the Earth.

Christ Jesus, the Lamb of God is NOT ON the Earth, while He is unleashing His Wrath upon the Earth.

Thee Lord Gods Holy angels are NOT ON the Earth, while Gods Wrath is unleashed upon the Earth.

WHY anyone Believes, God LEAVES His Forgiven, Saved and Born Again Children Upon the Earth, WHILE HE IS DIVIDING...
the Forgiven, Saved and Born Again
FROM
The unForgiven, the UnSaved, and the UnBorn Again....is ludicrist.

When a man CHOSE to Drink of Jesus' SAME CUP....They CHOSE to Commited to Christ...and Chose to be SUBJECT TO: the hate and indignation the World would HEAP UPON them.

God RAISES UP above the earth, all those who were hated, Because they Believed and Committed to God and Christ....

And Unleashes His OWN CUP OF INDIGNATION UPON the Earth and the people of the Earth who HEAPED indignation upon HIS Children.

IN SHORT, Gods Wrath, IS HE Fulfilling His Promise to Avenge and Spew out Vengence upon those who Hated and Caused tribulations and death to His children....BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED and COMMITTED TO GOD and Christ.

If you ARE In Belief of God AND Jesus AND committed to both....

You are NOT SUBJECT TO GODS WRATH...His VENGENCE upon the Earth and the People there of.

What is your point of being ON EARTH..during the Tribulation? To spread His Word?

That has been the Faithful's JOB for 2,000 + years....How's that working out? People are Rejecting God and Christ IN DROVeS...Open your Eyes, Observe.

Observe the USA, founded and established on GODS Principles ans Stndards....in less than 300 years is full of people with corrupt minds and actions and teaching the same IS Acceptable.

God decides when enough is enough.
God Decides when HE WILL STEP IN, Rise UP to Him those that ARE sealed unto Him...
And Let the Corrupt have a short season of doing things THEIR WAY, and be Subject to HIS Cup of Indignation.....Let them Be subject TO....what THEY make His Children Subject to!

Then God shall clean up the MESS, and restore the Earth and return His Children to their Restored habitat....as HE created for them to Have.

Glory to God,
Taken

I still fail to see your point. Yes, I agree that only Jews who believe in both God and Christ are 'saved' and members of the body, and are therefore no longer "Jew or Gentile".

But there is nothing in Romans 9-11 that suggests that God, when he turns his attentions back to the Jews, will restore them in any other way then by bringing them into the Church family...that is, to Christ as their Messiah.

And I cannot find any persuasive, or specific texts that would back your insistance that the Tribulation must be a time that the Church is gone and where the Jews suffer predominantly. All texts that talk about increased persecution of God's people in the end time are general...as in "those who belong to God".
What gives us leave to assume a calendar of "Church goes up, Tribulation for the Jews"?

 

[101G]

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

in reading many scholars papers. many, not all, say that the Thyatira church age has passed, and they give a date or time period.

if this is true, then those who claim that the church will not go through Great Tribulation, then according to some scholars you have missed the rapture, according to this verse.

but if one say oh, it's the condition that each church is in. well then if you, who are (pri-trib) are not in this church, then those who are in this church can only claim a pre-trib rapture, because you would be in that type or condition of a church. meaning one cannot claim a pre-trib rapture.

either way, one will have to be in this kind of church, or your time has passed.

 

[CoreIssue]

It's completely valid. And I'm not attempting to use the different contexts of the different verses to prove my point in Rev 3:10, all I am showing is that in Revelation, the phrase "those who dwell on the earth" is consistently used as the wicked inhabitants of the earth. Let's look at them again, since you doubt me:

They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” -Revelation 6:10

Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!” -Revelation 8:13

and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 11:10

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. -Revelation 13:8

and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. -Revelation 13:14

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. -Revelation 17:8

Every time, it refers to the wicked. So, how is my point not valid? The phrase can clearly be interpreted as speaking about only the wicked and not the just.



I'm not attempting to. At all. All I'm pointing out is that you cannot force a strict interpretation upon a text when it, in fact, allows other possibilities. It's like having a sentence like "he was injured", and insisting that it means he's about to die. Well...no. It just says he was injured. It could mean he just stubbed his toe. When you come to a sentence that doesn't say exactly what you are trying to claim it does (it does not say "the Church will be raptured, but you are insisting that HAS to be the conclusion of what it means) then you yourself are playing with the 'rules of words and grammar'. Revelation itself (and therefore Christ and John) tell us what "dwellers on earth" mean, and as I've repeatedly pointed out from other scriptures, we know that God has and can, keep his own safe from judgements...either his, or others. But there is nothing specifically in the text that DEMANDS a removal from earth. It simply doesn't say it. The only way you get there is if you already assume it.


Oh, I did not. Go and read them again.


Yes, so what? Can't God protect us from what happens here? He is going to protect the believing Jews, isn't he? That's what you claim? You cannot claim one without allowing the other. It totally blows your logic out of the water.


Reality is not my problem. If reality is that God will, and does, Rapture us out, I'll be as chuffed as the next guy and won't give a second's thought to "but hang on, I thought it had to go like this...!!"
My point is only this....you continously put into the text what it doesn't outright say. It's not there!! It assumes only. And there is only so many times one can "assume" something from a text before you have to question it. So all those other times, when it doesn't outright mention a Pre-trib rapture of the Church, or a separation between Church and Israel, and all those other things? How many assumptions can there be? How many "reading between the lines" should a person accept before they begin to wonder if this dog don't hunt?


Hey, you made it about the fish. My point all along was that God kept Noah safe during his judgement on the earth. And it doesn't have to be exactly the same as the "tribulation". All it has to do is serve as an example of what God can do, and has done. Which it does.


Except when the words mean there is.
Remember the words? You like word rules.
téreó: τηρέω: I keep, guard, observe, watch over. (strongs 5083)
ek or ex: ἐκ, ἐξ: from out, out from among, from (strongs 1537)
So, it could be "I keep out of", or it could be "I guard from" or "Observe from" or "watch over from among".
Thems the word rules.


So, you're saying God can protect from bad kings fire, but not from his own judgements? Sure it's a different situation, but the outcome is rather the same, wouldn't you think? God protects. And he doesn't have to do it by yanking those here off the planet?


That matters how? And it still doesn't address my point that the word "church" being gone doesn't mean a thing. Still dodging that. And saying that 'Israel takes over once the Rapture happens', as an explination doesn't explain it. Because we then go right back to the problem of....pin the tail on the scripture that doesn't show that. Yeah, I think there are scriptures that say God will turn his attention back towards Israel at the time of the end. But there is nothing...but assumption again...that says that the Church HAS to be gone for that to happen. It's not there.
And if what I'm doing is so full of holes...why don't you show me the verses to prove it.
Seriously. I'm probably frustrating the snot out of you, and I'm not doing it JUST to frustrate you. I actually like Dispensationalists. I like their passion and their vision of the future. But I just can't get around the massive holes in their end times system. It's a nice system, it sounds great on the surface and I can't fault people for believing in it or wanting to believe in it. But unless someone can give me solid, biblical answers to these massive, gaping holes, I just can't support it. But...i'd like those scriptures. I haven't ever been given them yet, but I suppose I can live in hope that one day someone will show me enough proof for me to let things lie. But for the time being, I just feel like I need to point out the holes.

You are repeating yourself and have already been answered.

You have been given enough but you refuse to pay attention. You turn a blind eye to it.

 

[Keraz]

Accusing those who refute the 'rapture to heaven' theory of 'hatred', is hatred itself.
I and Vexatious do not hate anybody. Personally, I have been to Israel and know several Jews there. Good individual people. Not in the slightest interested in the Gospel and to mention Jesus is very upsetting to them. They know what we believe, their choice is to reject Christianity. In the Middle ages many Jews were forced to convert or die. Many did, to survive, but then as soon as possible they went back to Judaism.

What does upset me and all who reject the 'rapture', is how people are blinded to the truth. Isaiah 29:9-12 This seems unfair of God, but He does this so when the testing time does come and be assured it will, Ezekiel 33:33, only those with the full strength of faith will stand strong and be protected. Our prime example is the three men in the furnace.

 

[Enoch111]

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

in reading many scholars papers. many, not all, say that the Thyatira church age has passed, and they give a date or time period.

if this is true, then those who claim that the church will not go through Great Tribulation, then according to some scholars you have missed the rapture, according to this verse.

Except that that is a misapplication and misunderstanding of this verse. That church existed in the first century, so the "great tribulation" mentioned here can also be stated as "great distress" or "great anguish" (Strong's 2347).

It has nothing to do with the period known as the Great Tribulation, which will follow the Abomination of Desolation in the future. and will have a worldwide impact through the 7th trumpet judgments.

 

[n2thelight]

Psalms 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand, But it shall not come nigh thee."

 

[Keraz]

Psalms 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand, But it shall not come nigh thee."

Psalms 91:7-11 A thousand may fall near you ten thousand close by, but you it will not touch. With your own eyes you will see it, you will see the Lord's retribution on the ungodly.
Surely You are my refuge; Lord. I have made the Most High my protector, so no disaster may befall me, His angels will guard me from harm.
Another scripture that destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory!

 

[CoreIssue]

Psalms 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand, But it shall not come nigh thee."

Read the whole chapter. On the day written until today the things listed and said will not happen have happened to many.

Understand what a psalm is before you start citing them.

 

[Vexatious]

A person who is a liar is someone who deliberately tells an untruth with a view to decieve others. Dispensationalists believe wholeheartedly what they preach.

A liar also someone who doesn't care about the truth, whether or not they know what they're saying is untrue. It's not like one or two verses they insist on unnatural interpretations for the sake of harmonizing scripture, it's practically every verse they quote. Their leaders have created an anti-christian sci-fi fantasy of the end times and they shamelessly contort the Bible to fit. Their leaders are like Joseph Smith who had certainly come to believe that Christianity is false, and rather than leave it, he decided to become a deliberate liar and calculate what he cold teach for maximum personal benefit. I can't pretend their teachings are even remotely honest differences in beliefs.

If a dispesnationalist wholeheartedly believes what he preaches, he needs a proverbial slap across the face.

As for your own "proof of their lies", half of what you say about "their beliefs" aren't even accurate anyway, and are clearly based on your own hatred of them and some weird personal vendetta that has skewed their actual teaching way over the horizon.

Everything I say about their beliefs are accurate. However, not everyone of them believe the same thing. Every one of their teachers teach something slightly different. And, I also strip the coy or euphemistic nonsense from their beliefs. Pretribbers do teach God lied to fool Christians into thinking the rapture is imminent, even if they don't use the L-word and insist they're not accusing God of lying. I gave them a chance to explain how their doctrine of imminence doesn't make God a liar, and all I got was a lied to (imminent doesn't mean imminent).

 

[CoreIssue]

A liar also someone who doesn't care about the truth, whether or not they know what they're saying is untrue. It's not like one or two verses they insist on unnatural interpretations for the sake of harmonizing scripture, it's practically every verse they quote. Their leaders have created an anti-christian sci-fi fantasy of the end times and they shamelessly contort the Bible to fit. Their leaders are like Joseph Smith who had certainly come to believe that Christianity is false, and rather than leave it, he decided to become a deliberate liar and calculate what he cold teach for maximum personal benefit. I can't pretend their teachings are even remotely honest differences in beliefs.

If a dispesnationalist wholeheartedly believes what he preaches, he needs a proverbial slap across the face.



Everything I say about their beliefs are accurate. However, not everyone of them believe the same thing. Every one of their teachers teach something slightly different. And, I also strip the coy or euphemistic nonsense from their beliefs. Pretribbers do teach God lied to fool Christians into thinking the rapture is imminent, even if they don't use the L-word and insist they're not accusing God of lying. I gave them a chance to explain how their doctrine of imminence doesn't make God a liar, and all I got was a lied to (imminent doesn't mean imminent).

The oracle of god speaks again. The only question is which god?

 

[Vexatious]

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Rapture-believing churches (which includes 99% of Pentecostal churches) obsess with teaching the rapture. Jack van Impe has only one sermon. He delivers it every day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade. The only thing that changes is the changing current events that he declares are signs and fulfillment of end-times prophecy (replacing obsolete and failed lies with new lies). That sermon is that God is going to take away the failed church so God can concentrate on "His People, the Jews". Why is the rapture so important to them? If I were to be raptured tomorrow, why would I need to know it? Why would it need it pounded into my head every week, all my life?

Sadly, yes, the rapture is usually the only thing some people are taught. That's a bit to be expected. People generally don't talk much about region outside of church. People generally don't teach negatives. And, other pastors generally avoid stirring up controversy.

But, here's the thing, how can someone really read Luke 21 (or parallel passages) and remain a pretribber? The destruction of the then standing Temple (not the future building of a new temple). The persecution of the saints and the warning to flee (no rapture). The destruction of Judea (not the defeat of the gentile nations). This generation (not "that generation"). How much mileage can a sincere person really get by protesting "Did they see Jesus coming in the clouds"? ("Coming in the clouds" is an OT-established figure of speech for judgement.)

How can someone read the context of Jack van Impe's scripture references and not see that every time of the high frequency he mentions scripture, he's engaging in raw BS? Something like "Artificial Intelligence is a sign of the end-times, Revelation 7:3..." It's really like they want to believe lies, like maybe for the entertainment.

 

[Vexatious]

The oracle of god speaks again. The only question is which god?

My God is the God of Abraham. Is your god the same god of the Jews (aka the synagogue of Satan)?

 

[CoreIssue]

Well, consider the mark of the beast and chip implants in animals. kids, credit cards, cars and others.

Or what Microsoft and google embed on your computer to customize their services to better serve you while tracking you in keeping records about you.

That is why I customized windows 10 to shut down a bunch of that garbage. And use Duckduckgo instead of Google or Bing.

Did you know on your laptop they can remotely turn on your camera and tap into it? Same with your GPS on your cell phone.

Are you saying you can't see it or do you think the market beast is purely supernatural?

Do not accuse me of just being paranoid. I worked in National Security and keep up on technology, so why I know the realities?

 

[CoreIssue]

My God is the God of Abraham. Is your god the same god of the Jews (aka the synagogue of Satan)?

My lord and savior is Jesus Christ.

Biblically the church of Satan that is the catholic church.

 

[Naomi25]

You are repeating yourself and have already been answered.

You have been given enough but you refuse to pay attention. You turn a blind eye to it.

View attachment 4626

Yes, I have been repeating myself. Repeatedly. I'm aware of this. Because I've been repeatedly begging for you to show...with scripture...that you can back up your assumptions. That we have reached this point and you have given nothing but your own assertions that you are right and I am wrong, suggests that you have no biblical basis for your underlying end times beliefs.
Am happy to drop it if you no longer want to go around the table. If you have no scriptures to give, there is rather no point, is there?

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes, I have been repeating myself. Repeatedly. I'm aware of this. Because I've been repeatedly begging for you to show...with scripture...that you can back up your assumptions. That we have reached this point and you have given nothing but your own assertions that you are right and I am wrong, suggests that you have no biblical basis for your underlying end times beliefs.
Am happy to drop it if you no longer want to go around the table. If you have no scriptures to give, there is rather no point, is there?

I've given you verses. to prove everything I've said. But you keep changing word definitions or saying maybe it means. Also claiming totally non related verses as proof.

 

[farouk]

Yes, I have been repeating myself. Repeatedly. I'm aware of this. Because I've been repeatedly begging for you to show...with scripture...that you can back up your assumptions. That we have reached this point and you have given nothing but your own assertions that you are right and I am wrong, suggests that you have no biblical basis for your underlying end times beliefs.
Am happy to drop it if you no longer want to go around the table. If you have no scriptures to give, there is rather no point, is there?

John 14; 1 Thessalonians 4; 1 Corinthians 11.26.

 

[Taken]

I still fail to see your point. Yes, I agree that only Jews who believe in both God and Christ are 'saved' and members of the body, and are therefore no longer "Jew or Gentile".

But there is nothing in Romans 9-11 that suggests that God, when he turns his attentions back to the Jews, will restore them in any other way then by bringing them into the Church family...that is, to Christ as their Messiah.

And I cannot find any persuasive, or specific texts that would back your insistance that the Tribulation must be a time that the Church is gone and where the Jews suffer predominantly. All texts that talk about increased persecution of God's people in the end time are general...as in "those who belong to God".
What gives us leave to assume a calendar of "Church goes up, Tribulation for the Jews"?

What is the Lord dividing...?
Those who believe from those who do not?

And Is there some time according to God that He shall finalize the division?

I'll wait for your answer then continue the conversation.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

If a dispesnationalist wholeheartedly believes what he preaches, he needs a proverbial slap across the face.

And you can find that loving response on which page in the bible?