Normally people must believe something before they respond positively to it. You believe the chair is there before you sit in it. You believe the gospel is true before you react positively to it. Etc.
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Paul taught this long before Calvin was born. I'm not a Calvinist and wonder if he is even saved. But Paul covers this thoroughly in Romans 9 and throughout his writings.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)
This would still make everything inevitable. But if you consider people freely choose for a reason beyond their control. And place the reason in God's control, you can harmonize both free will and God's sovereignty.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Philippians 2:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Influence
This robs God of his glory in salvation and gives some of it to the self-righteous if it is nothing more than influence.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
No man can come to God unless the Spirit draws him. Jesus said, I have only come for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, so if you are an Israelite you are who God came for. What is an Israelite? It is someone who has wrestled with their angel until he get's his blessing. Then God says, You will no longer be called Jacob (heel catcher), but you will be called Israel (Prince of God). In essence, you are an overcomer that God was looking for to establish His Kingdom in the next AGE upon this earth. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
What a God! What a Plan!
While your sentiments are admirable, your understanding about this is not exactly according to Scripture. The lost sheep of the house of Israel were exactly that -- unsaved Jews. At the same time Christ also ministered to Gentiles, and anticipated a worldwide Church which would include both Jews and Gentiles after Pentecost.
Sinners who genuinely believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are the opposite of self-righteous. You have a flawed understanding of the Gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit to bring sinners to the Savior. If you would take the time to remove your Calvinistic spectacles and simply trust the Bible, you would understand what I am saying.
The Israelites have to come to Jesus just like the gentiles do and they will. As a matter of fact, some have already come and the rest of them will come later. But I beg to differ, the Jews were not lost. The Israelites were.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
"This would still make everything inevitable." Yes. And all accomplished in the freedom of choice...Yeah God is that good
"But if you consider people freely choose for a reason beyond their control. And place the reason in God's control, you can harmonize both free will and God's sovereignty."
Not sure how one could choose "for a reason beyond their control"
Also not sure how one could place in God's control, another persons reasons for their choices?? I suppose I am just not following you here, lol.
God has always had and always will have control of everything. He already "controlled" the outcome that we as living in "time", have not yet seen...I see that as God USING ALL things to the good of those who love Him. He is able to allow us free will, knowing what we will do (already have done in eternity, or spiritual realm) and still use the circumstances we find ourselves in in this life. Of course God is Sovereign. He can and will do anything He pleases!
OzSpen
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Paul also taught: ' For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.' (Titus 2:11 NIV).
Jesus' teaching harmonises with that of Paul: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 NIV).
Romans 9 cannot be interpreted in isolation from these Scriptures.
So free will is a necessary dimension of responding to the offer of salvation.
OzSpen
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Lobage,
It's a shame you didn't read the remainder of John's Gospel: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 NIV).
Now, please harmonise the verse you quoted, John 6:44 with John 12:32.
Oz
In the gospels, salvation is preached (Greek = announced) for all who believe. They never offer it. If they did, the gospel would become a law for the self righteous to keep in order to save themselves.
This is true. All things work together...............(in their precise cause and effect relationships)........for good, to those who love the Lord."This would still make everything inevitable." Yes. And all accomplished in the freedom of choice...Yeah God is that good
"But if you consider people freely choose for a reason beyond their control. And place the reason in God's control, you can harmonize both free will and God's sovereignty."
Not sure how one could choose "for a reason beyond their control"
Also not sure how one could place in God's control, another persons reasons for their choices?? I suppose I am just not following you here, lol.
God has always had and always will have control of everything. He already "controlled" the outcome that we as living in "time", have not yet seen...I see that as God USING ALL things to the good of those who love Him. He is able to allow us free will, knowing what we will do (already have done in eternity, or spiritual realm) and still use the circumstances we find ourselves in in this life. Of course God is Sovereign. He can and will do anything He pleases!
The gospel is the spoken word of God that creates life in people just as it did when Jesus spoke the universe into existence.
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23) (KJV 1900)
A mere offer of salvation only invites people to treat the gospel as law and to become obedient in an attempt to save themselves by works.
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