The Coming Great Apostasy

[4Jesus]

We are really not that far apart. I think we agree on many points, just maybe a issue of semantics on the wording. The primary focus of the GT period is to drive the Hebrew people to the point where there is no hope left but to call out to the Lord, specifically Yeshua for their salvation. I do still hold that Yeshua made a solid condition that His return is contingent upon the religious leadership turning to Him, acknowledging their offense of rejection, and petitioning for his return before He will return. Those go hand in hand.

Hosea 5:14-15 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim (Israel),
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Matthew 23:37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Hi Copperhead. Yes, I agree we are not far apart, at all. I'm sorry if I was confusing. I'm not denying that what you are saying is true; just talking about "how" that will occur.

God-the-Father and God-the-Son are one, Yeshua knows of His Father's plan for His people, the jews, and will not execute His part (Yeshua's part) of the plan until the time is right - which is the condition you speak of, the remnant turn to Yeshua.

To add on to the Matthew 23:37-39 verses (and linking to Hosea), Matthew 24:33-39 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

 

[Davy]

To me, the Jews who don't "knowingly" serve satan, still reject Jesus (those that aren't Messianic Jews of course). Thus are anti-christ, and by default, are of satan (even if not purposefully serving him). They aren't really serving God-the-Father either (not disagreeing they don't love him however), or else the sacrificial system from the OT would still be occurring for atonement of sins - they aren't even doing that. They are preparing to reinstate the old system now with the search for a red heifer taking place.

Lot of Jews today in Israel don't think about Jesus, aren't really that aware of that history, and don't care. But the Jews that do love our Heavenly Father have been trying to build another temple to continue with old covenant worship. For several decades now in Israel, the ultra-orthodox Jews have been gathering materials to build it; their Sanhedrin has formed up again, they have been choosing Levitical priests, and some of the temple artifacts are on display in Jerusalem, and stone cutters already have begun cutting the stones. For several years they have been trying to place the cornerstone on the Temple Mount, but the Israeli government (via the U.N. of course) won't let them. Doesn't look like those have lost their religious zeal at all.

In addition, today's Messianic Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, and would not be a part of the "synagogue of satan"

For the Zechariah 12:10-14 verses, I think that shows that some of the Jews will convert and accept Jesus as their Messiah, and will mourn that they once rejected him and were wrong. Further along in chapter 13, verse 8-9 states that not all will accept Jesus: "8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Then they will be one in Christ Jesus, the Messiah. Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Study what Jesus said to the weeping women who cried for Him as He was carrying His cross to be crucified, in Luke 23:27-30. Those who will wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon them when Jesus comes will be those Jews who rejected Him, not the "synagogue of Satan" that hates Him and were the real ones responsible for His crucifixion. They will appear in shame when He comes. And Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus Himself warned us also about falling away, not waiting on Him, and not staying "a chaste virgin" (2 Cor.11; also Rev.16:15).

 

[Phoneman777]

And using your reasoning, then hardly anyone is saved except those that have a leisurely time of dying and can contemplate their life. How many die in such a way that they neither had the time to seek pardon or remembering a sin to seek pardon of?

I think you misunderstand what I meant. There's a Biblical distinction between "sin not unto death" and "sin unto death".

A sin that is not unto death is that against which we struggle to overcome by prayer, fasting, striving...yea, we may stumble along the way to victory, but when a child stumbles while learning to walk, does the father swat the child or curse the child? No, he wipes the child's tears and encourages him to get up and keep trying until eventually he not only learns to walk, but to run. And so does our Father in heaven

A sin that is unto death is any sin from which we refuse to repent. Not praying, not fasting, not striving...just continue to indulge and indulge, driving fresh nails into the hands and feet of the One Whom we claim to "love"...eventually a spiritual callous forms on the ears and the voice of the Holy Spirit calling us to repent is heard no more...we quench the Holy Spirit so that we no longer feel Him convicting us of sin anymore, just as a man quenches his thirst so that he no longer feels thirsty anymore

 

[Phoneman777]

yet once they were just as persecuted I guess, almost wiped out even. But I mean don't get me wrong I think mixing nations is insane, especially importing ppl from nations you have occupied? It's mixing beta fish to me

They're being imported as part of the NWO agenda. The secret societies have adhered to that age old philosophy of "out of chaos: order". The Freemason battle cry is "Ordo Ab Chao". The best way to get the people "back to God" is to stir up fear. 911 was just a microcosm of what's coming. When radical Islam has overrun America, along with environmental, economic, and social/moral catastrophes on all sides, the people will demand legislated morality, and in like manner of the papacy, the church will unite with the State...and persecute those who refuse to go along with the "state religion" - the image of the Beast!

 

[Phoneman777]

Listen CLOSELY to what Jesus said:
Mat. 12[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
> People who DO NOT come to Jesus through faith, do not and cannot know who the Holy Spirit is.
Therefore, as John 3:18 says, all of such "are condemned (lost) ALREADY."
No person, who has NOT believed in Jesus, can be condemned twice!!

However, if one HAS believed in Jesus, and were baptized by water and by the Holy Spirit (born again), and THEN reject Him (the Holy Spirit), there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice, through the Blood of Jesus, for reason of committing that ONE SIN.
Whereas they were once "PARTAKERS of the divine nature", but have purposely rejected the covenant of His Blood wherewith they WERE ONCE sanctified,
The sacrifice of Christ is no longer made available to them again.

When a saint is convicted of sin and that saint refuses to turn from it, the convicting voice of the Holy Spirit will grow steadily softer and softer until it is heard no more - the unpardonable sin - which is any sin for which pardon is not sought because the ability to seek pardon is gone forever.

 

[Phoneman777]

Then you will be on your knees night and day, seeking forgiveness for committing adultery in your heart! Best wishes on that!
.
Think on this: all our sins, that are common to men are premeditated!
Only people who have the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9) are able to commit the unpardonable sin, and that is they reject Him, after having received Him, and were made PARTAKERS of the divine nature, who IS CHRIST!
Get your head straight on this! You do not know what you are talking about, and therefore are leading others astray!

The adulterer doesn't need to get on his knees day and night to know he's wrong, neither the thief, the hater, the covetous, etc.

 

[farouk]

FALSE TEACHING 100%
Do yourself one big favor and correct yourself, by reading and then STUDYING Heb. 10:26-31 with the Lord's Mind/thoughts and NOT your own!!
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
> To sin willfully, is not to do that which is common among men, but rather to DESPISE the Blood of Christ whereby ONE WAS SANCTIFIED!!
Sinners who DO NOT come to Christ, are NEVER sanctified prior to belief/faith!!

> Unsaved people have always the Lord's forgiveness waiting for them, but only as long as they have breath. However to believe in Christ and receive the knowledge of the truth (His Holy Spirit), and then later in life REJECT Him, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins.
Forgiveness through Christ is no longer available, for them who despise the Blood of Christ, wherewith they WERE ONCE sanctified.
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS [past tense] sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge HIS people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
> NO ONE, who is unsaved, is the Lord's people!!
Rom. 8:9

Hebrews is very searching.

Goes to show that we must keep a good conscience before God in the light of Scripture...

 

[Earburner]

We are really not that far apart. I think we agree on many points, just maybe a issue of semantics on the wording. The primary focus of the GT period is to drive the Hebrew people to the point where there is no hope left but to call out to the Lord, specifically Yeshua for their salvation. I do still hold that Yeshua made a solid condition that His return is contingent upon the religious leadership turning to Him, acknowledging their offense of rejection, and petitioning for his return before He will return. Those go hand in hand.

Hosea 5:14-15 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim (Israel),
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Matthew 23:37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

One must ask, who are they who come to them in the name of the Lord now?
Ans. Born again Christians.

 

[farouk]

One must ask, who are they who come to them in the name of the Lord now?
Ans. Born again Christians.

The new birth (John 3) is pivotal in one's understanding of life in Christ by faith.

 

[Copperhead]

One must ask, who are they who come to them in the name of the Lord now?
Ans. Born again Christians.

Not even close. That reference in Matthew 23:39 about "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" is a reference to Psalm 118 which is a Messianic Psalm. Those passages have nothing to do with the church they are totally Hebrew related. Hosea 5:14 - 6:2, Matthew 23:37-39, and Psalm 118 all tie together and pertain to the Hebrews during the latter days. Those passages have nothing to do with those that are "born again". They relate to the collective nation of Israel. National entities are not born again, individual people are.

 

[Davy]

But to take that further, the physical Hebrews who are not part of the Body of Messiah still have a purpose. The majority of Hebrews, more to the point the Hebrew religious leadership, still has a task to complete BEFORE Yeshua will return. Hosea 5:14-15 is quite clear that Jacob (both Judah and Israel) must acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua and He will not return till that happens. And Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:37-29.

The disciples wondered if the time was right for the Lord to restore the kingdom to Israel. Yeshua did not chastise the question, but told His disciples that it was up to the Father regarding those times. Not that it wouldn't happen. The disciples knew the promises in the Tanakh. Their assumptions were correct, their timing was not.

I am actually more convinced than ever that the "those who claim to be Jews but are not" / "synagogue of Satan" has replacement theology more in view than anything else.

That idea going around today is a misinterpretation of the Matthew 23:39 Scripture.

Matt 23:38-39
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'
KJV

That underlined part which Jesus quoted was from OT Scripture about His coming. But in this respect here in Matt.23, Jesus was pointing to His SECOND coming when the unbelieving Jews will say that.


Isa 40:9-11
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
KJV

Zech 12:10-11
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
KJV


Some are trying to present what Jesus said there in Matthew 23:39 as if Israel must come to believe on Jesus before His 2nd coming can occur. That idea is totally... false!!!

Like Apostles Paul and Peter taught from the OT prophets, the "day of the Lord" (which is the day of Christ's return) will come "as a thief in the night" upon the wicked and unbelieving. Our Lord Jesus taught that also in Rev.16:15 when He warned that He comes "as a thief", and for His Church to keep their spiritual garments lest they appear naked in shame.

 

[Copperhead]

That idea going around today is a misinterpretation of the Matthew 23:39 Scripture.

Matt 23:38-39
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'
KJV

That underlined part which Jesus quoted was from OT Scripture about His coming. But in this respect here in Matt.23, Jesus was pointing to His SECOND coming when the unbelieving Jews will say that.


Isa 40:9-11
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
KJV

Zech 12:10-11
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
KJV


Some are trying to present what Jesus said there in Matthew 23:39 as if Israel must come to believe on Jesus before His 2nd coming can occur. That idea is totally... false!!!

Like Apostles Paul and Peter taught from the OT prophets, the "day of the Lord" (which is the day of Christ's return) will come "as a thief in the night" upon the wicked and unbelieving. Our Lord Jesus taught that also in Rev.16:15 when He warned that He comes "as a thief", and for His Church to keep their spiritual garments lest they appear naked in shame.

The idea that Israel must acknowledge their rejection of Yeshua is clearly expounded in Hosea 5:14-15. So it is not really “totally... false” as you put it.

The Mathew 23:37-39 passage is a reference to Hosea 5:15 and Psalms 118 which is a well known Messianic Psalm.

 

[Davy]

The idea that Israel must acknowledge their rejection of Yeshua is clearly expounded in Hosea 5:14-15. So it is not really “totally... false” as you put it.

The Mathew 23:37-39 passage is a reference to Hosea 5:15 and Psalms 118 which is a well known Messianic Psalm.

I'm sorry brother, but if you believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah), then you're being duped by that teaching.

The religious orthodox Jews still do not believe Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah; they rejected Him at His first coming. They are still... looking for The Messiah of The Old Testament prophets and do NOT believe He has come yet. God is going to send them an imposter they will believe is Messiah, and it won't be our Lord Yeshua The Christ (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:3-11).

John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV

They will not be aware they have fallen into the trap of thinking the coming pseudo-Christ is the true Messiah, and when Yeshua does appear (the 2nd time), and destroys that pseudo-Christ, that... is when the orthodox Jews will 'know' they messed up, and will be saying the Matthew 23:39, "... Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." In Luke 23 with the "daughters of Jerusalem" that wept for Yeshua when He carried His cross, He told them the day would come when they would say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." (Luke 23:29). The orthodox Jews will say that also on the day Yeshua appears coming in the clouds, for it is a spiritual metaphor for not having stayed 'a chaste virgin' waiting on Him, but instead having strayed to another in His place and are found having played the spiritual harlot, i.e., with that pseudo-Christ of Matt.24:23-26 that comes first (KJV "false Christs" is Greek pseudochristos; Strong's definition is 'a spurious Messiah').

 

[Copperhead]

I'm sorry brother, but if you believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah), then you're being duped by that teaching

Duped by that teaching? The Torah requirement that the Berean's exemplified was followed in my previous post. The passages in the OT and the NT support each other.

But yours doesn't meet the Torah standard for evidence. A doctrine cannot be established on one verse, or even just the OT or NT exclusively. The only exceptions are those instances where a mystery is being revealed that had never been shown before. But this discussion is not one of them.

 

[Davy]

Duped by that teaching? The Torah requirement that the Berean's exemplified was followed in my previous post. The passages in the OT and the NT support each other.

But yours doesn't meet the Torah standard for evidence. A doctrine cannot be established on one verse, or even just the OT or NT exclusively. The only exceptions are those instances where a mystery is being revealed that had never been shown before. But this discussion is not one of them.

There is nothing... written in the Torah that proclaims the UNBELIEVING JEWS must repent and believe on JESUS CHRIST before He can return! And you cannot provide Scripture evidence to that effect either!

That is the idea you were presenting in your previous postings, and I showed you from God's Word how your idea is false!

 

[Copperhead]

There is nothing... written in the Torah that proclaims the UNBELIEVING JEWS must repent and believe on JESUS CHRIST before He can return! And you cannot provide Scripture evidence to that effect either!

That is the idea you were presenting in your previous postings, and I showed you from God's Word how your idea is false!

You didn't even get on the same continent with what I was talking about. From the Torah.....

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

The only scripture they had was the OT. Paul's teaching became a major portion of the NT. Anything Paul taught them they confirmed in the OT. The two witnesses we have are the OT and the NT. Any matter of doctrine must be supported unequivocally in both. That is why I never consider any position valid unless it can be fully supported in both OT and NT. Avoids a lot of confusion and misinterpretation.

So we go to Hosea....

Hosea 5:14-15 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

And Matthew....

Matthew 23:37-39 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!"

For corporate Jacob (Israel) to acknowledge their offense, they must acknowledge who Yeshua is and repent (turn about). It really is pretty simple. Unless one is trying to shoehorn a agenda into the text. But there is a maxim in IT that says, if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything.

How is what I stated False? It may be counter to what others believe, but that doesn't make it false.

 

[Davy]

Duped by that teaching? The Torah requirement that the Berean's exemplified was followed in my previous post. The passages in the OT and the NT support each other.

But yours doesn't meet the Torah standard for evidence. A doctrine cannot be established on one verse, or even just the OT or NT exclusively. The only exceptions are those instances where a mystery is being revealed that had never been shown before. But this discussion is not one of them.

More proof to show your idea is false that the unbelieving Jews must repent and believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ before He can return.

To Others Reading This - Copperhead probably won't read much of this because he is provoked by a falsehood which 'unbelieving' Jews have been proposing lately that the orthodox Jews must believe on Jesus before He can return. So I write this mainly for you, so you know how and where in God's Word to counter such baloney with their misinterpretation of Matthew 23:39.

God used Hosea to speak to the ten northern tribes of Israel, i.e., the "house of Israel". Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten tribes, and king Jeroboam at Samaria was of the tribe of Ephraim. God ended their kingdom and removed the ten tribes out of the lands of Israel, and said He would no more be their God, and they were no longer His people, because of their rebellion against Him. In contrast, He said here in Hosea 1 that He would save Judah, meaning the "house of Judah" at the south in Judea-Jerusalem. And so He did, as the ten tribes in the north were completely removed out of the lands while the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi remained in Judea-Jerusalem (2 Kings 17-18).

But later, God said the number of the children of Israel (ten tribes at this time) would be as the sand of the sea, and in the place where it was said to them that they are 'not My people', it would be said to them that "Ye are the sons of the living God."

Hos 5:14-15
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to My place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their affliction they will seek Me early.
KJV

Hosea was sent to prophesy against the "house of Israel", which was the TEN TRIBE KINGDOM OF NORTHERN ISRAEL, made up of the ten tribes. This was NOT for Judah which dwelt in the south at Judea-Jerusalem, also called the "house of Judah". The above Hosea 5:14-15 Scripture is an example which Copperhead is misinterpreting to try and show that the unbelieving Jews must accept Jesus Christ before His second coming can happen.

There are FOUR AND A HALF CHAPTERS before those 14 & 15 verses. And in those previous Hosea chapters God told the house of Israel they aren't His people anymore because of their having rebelled against Him. But that He would save Judah, and He did, as they didn't go into captivity to Babylon until about 120 years later after God had already removed the ten tribes out of the land. The false prophets prey on the Biblically illiterate who don't study all of God's Word. So this is why it's important to study all of God's Word, and not just the parts you may like. Historically, and today, the ten tribes of Israel are still... lost. A small remnant of them moved south and joined with Judah when king Jeroboam setup his golden calf idol worship in the north, but that remnant was by no means the majority of the ten tribes. The majority of them were scattered to Assyria and the land of the Medes, and then further scattered through the countries, mainly to the West. It would be there that they would fulfill the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecy of becoming "a company of nations" and "a multitude of nations". This happened when Christ's disciples left Judea and preached The Gospel to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe.


Hos 1:2-9
2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

8 Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, 'Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.'
KJV

The "house of Judah", which were the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that made up the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem, were not... in rebellion at that time, which is why verse 7 shows God would have mercy on them. And He did, as He brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel and took them all away captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes; but the "house of Judah" remained and would not go into captivity for rebelliion until around 120 years later, under Nebuchadnezzar. So this here is God speaking through Hosea to the ten tribes of the "house of Israel", to Ephraim. It was them that God said verse 9 to, that they were no more His people, and that He would not be their God.

So Copperhead speaks of holding to the Torah, but actually shows Biblical ignorance of Old Testament history of God's prophets, like Hosea here, and just what God's Message through Hosea was about, and who it was mainly to.

Rom 9:22-26
22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

Now there Apostle Paul is quoting from the very end of Hosea 1. And he is applying what God said through Hosea to Roman believers on Christ Jesus of Nazareth.

TEN TRIBE REMNANTS WHO WOULD BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS are mainly who God was talking about in Hosea that would seek Him early, acknowledging their offense as written in Hosea 5:15, NOT ORTHODOX UNBELIEVING JEWS who still to this day reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah!

 

[Copperhead]

More proof to show your idea is false that the unbelieving Jews must repent and believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ before He can return.

To Others Reading This - Copperhead probably won't read much of this because he is provoked by a falsehood which 'unbelieving' Jews have been proposing lately that the orthodox Jews must believe on Jesus before He can return. So I write this mainly for you, so you know how and where in God's Word to counter such baloney with their misinterpretation of Matthew 23:39.

God used Hosea to speak to the ten northern tribes of Israel, i.e., the "house of Israel". Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten tribes, and king Jeroboam at Samaria was of the tribe of Ephraim. God ended their kingdom and removed the ten tribes out of the lands of Israel, and said He would no more be their God, and they were no longer His people, because of their rebellion against Him. In contrast, He said here in Hosea 1 that He would save Judah, meaning the "house of Judah" at the south in Judea-Jerusalem. And so He did, as the ten tribes in the north were completely removed out of the lands while the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi remained in Judea-Jerusalem (2 Kings 17-18).

But later, God said the number of the children of Israel (ten tribes at this time) would be as the sand of the sea, and in the place where it was said to them that they are 'not My people', it would be said to them that "Ye are the sons of the living God."

Hos 5:14-15
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to My place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their affliction they will seek Me early.
KJV

Hosea was sent to prophesy against the "house of Israel", which was the TEN TRIBE KINGDOM OF NORTHERN ISRAEL, made up of the ten tribes. This was NOT for Judah which dwelt in the south at Judea-Jerusalem, also called the "house of Judah". The above Hosea 5:14-15 Scripture is an example which Copperhead is misinterpreting to try and show that the unbelieving Jews must accept Jesus Christ before His second coming can happen.

There are FOUR AND A HALF CHAPTERS before those 14 & 15 verses. And in those previous Hosea chapters God told the house of Israel they aren't His people anymore because of their having rebelled against Him. But that He would save Judah, and He did, as they didn't go into captivity to Babylon until about 120 years later after God had already removed the ten tribes out of the land. The false prophets prey on the Biblically illiterate who don't study all of God's Word. So this is why it's important to study all of God's Word, and not just the parts you may like. Historically, and today, the ten tribes of Israel are still... lost. A small remnant of them moved south and joined with Judah when king Jeroboam setup his golden calf idol worship in the north, but that remnant was by no means the majority of the ten tribes. The majority of them were scattered to Assyria and the land of the Medes, and then further scattered through the countries, mainly to the West. It would be there that they would fulfill the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecy of becoming "a company of nations" and "a multitude of nations". This happened when Christ's disciples left Judea and preached The Gospel to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe.


Hos 1:2-9
2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

8 Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, 'Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.'
KJV

The "house of Judah", which were the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that made up the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem, were not... in rebellion at that time, which is why verse 7 shows God would have mercy on them. And He did, as He brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel and took them all away captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes; but the "house of Judah" remained and would not go into captivity for rebelliion until around 120 years later, under Nebuchadnezzar. So this here is God speaking through Hosea to the ten tribes of the "house of Israel", to Ephraim. It was them that God said verse 9 to, that they were no more His people, and that He would not be their God.

So Copperhead speaks of holding to the Torah, but actually shows Biblical ignorance of Old Testament history of God's prophets, like Hosea here, and just what God's Message through Hosea was about, and who it was mainly to.

Rom 9:22-26
22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

Now there Apostle Paul is quoting from the very end of Hosea 1. And he is applying what God said through Hosea to Roman believers on Christ Jesus of Nazareth.

TEN TRIBE REMNANTS WHO WOULD BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS are mainly who God was talking about in Hosea that would seek Him early, acknowledging their offense as written in Hosea 5:15, NOT ORTHODOX UNBELIEVING JEWS who still to this day reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah!

I will try and make this as simple as I can. Indeed, Hosea primarily dealt with the northern kingdom, but regarding Hosea 5:14-15, both Ephraim (northern kingdom) and Judah (southern kingdom) are being addressed. And unless you can show us another time other than the first century AD where Yeshua came among us and returned to His place, the first century event is the only explanation.

And combined with Matthew 23:37-39, the picture is very clear. The corporate leadership of Israel must acknowledge Yeshua before He will return. And it isn’t about some 10 tribes stuff. The Nothern tribes became intermingled with the Southern tribes back in 2 Chronickes. At least 3 occasions including a migration from the north long after the Assyrian conguest. After The Babylonian exile Ezra calls his returning remnant Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah calls his returning remnant Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

The separation of tribes going on today is done by those with a agenda and no reading of scripture. It is poking the finger in the eye of YHVH.

I did get a chuckle though. When folks feel they need to denigrate others in a discussion, it is usually because they have run out of substantive arguments to support their case. Nice try though. I lost the weakness of being intimidated back during the Vietnam War.

 

[Davy]

I will try and make this as simple as I can. Indeed, Hosea primarily dealt with the northern kingdom, but regarding Hosea 5:14-15, both Ephraim (northern kingdom) and Judah (southern kingdom) are being addressed. And unless you can show us another time other than the first century AD where Yeshua came among us and returned to His place, the first century event is the only explanation.
....

Sorry brother, my previous post #857 shot big holes in your argument.

God gave His Hosea Message to Ephraim of the ten tribes, as it was their northern kingdom of Israel He was getting ready to destroy, not Judah's in the south. You applied it to the orthodox unbelieving Jews what only applied to scattered ten tribes when The Gospel was preached to them, and they became the Western Christian nations of history. They repented and came to Jesus a long, long, long time ago. Did that include 'some' Jews that were scattered in the same areas of the ten tribes after Judah's Babylon captivity? Yes, no doubt, some scattered Jews converted to Christ Jesus also, which James addressed all 12 tribes scattered abroad. So they would be included. But NOT... today's orthodox Jews, especially not those in the state of Israel today who are being prepared to bow to the coming false-Messiah that is prophesied to appear there first, prior to our Lord Jesus' coming.

 

[Davy]

I will try and make this as simple as I can. Indeed, Hosea primarily dealt with the northern kingdom, but regarding Hosea 5:14-15, both Ephraim (northern kingdom) and Judah (southern kingdom) are being addressed. And unless you can show us another time other than the first century AD where Yeshua came among us and returned to His place, the first century event is the only explanation.

And combined with Matthew 23:37-39, the picture is very clear. The corporate leadership of Israel must acknowledge Yeshua before He will return. And it isn’t about some 10 tribes stuff. The Nothern tribes became intermingled with the Southern tribes back in 2 Chronickes. At least 3 occasions including a migration from the north long after the Assyrian conguest. After The Babylonian exile Ezra calls his returning remnant Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah calls his returning remnant Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

The separation of tribes going on today is done by those with a agenda and no reading of scripture. It is poking the finger in the eye of YHVH.

I did get a chuckle though. When folks feel they need to denigrate others in a discussion, it is usually because they have run out of substantive arguments to support their case. Nice try though. I lost the weakness of being intimidated back during the Vietnam War.

The Jewish historian Josephus lived in 100 A.D. He said the ten tribes were still... scattered beyond Euphrates in his day, and were a great number of people, too many to be counted.

Some Jewish scholars do not try to scrap the ten lost tribes, and they do recognize their return in final, as written in Scripture like Ezek.37. So not all Jewish scholars scrap the ten lost tribes, or teach the falsehood that all the ten tribes blended back in among the Jews.

So much for any substantive argument you might think you have.